157 replies to this topic

[Eisenhorne]

This is only an issue in solaris.

[Maddermax]

I don’t think crotch hugging is a good tactic, and it will often just get you killed as a light, but it is pretty stupid looking when it actually happen (on those rare occasions). Generally it’s not an issue in most game modes though, and certainly isn’t game breaking - an assault who falls prey to it has generally already gotten himself into an untenable situation anyway.

My solution would be to introduce m-pods: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/M-Pod

have it be like a directional shell from an arty strike that only damages under 30m, and takes up tonnage/slots. Max one per mech, makes a nice alternative to rockets for an extra ton, discourages crotch hugging.

Edited by Maddermax, 07 November 2018 - 03:58 PM.

[Alex Morgaine]

Aim range and mobility are definitely major factors for survival. One time, was in a raven 4x with 2sp, 2hmg, and a srm pack. Got behind enemy team and a found a kodiak. Poor guy was unable to turn towards me fast enough and his team was in full nascar. I chewed him to death.

[Alex Morgaine]

Maddermax, on 07 November 2018 - 03:56 PM, said:

I don’t think crotch hugging is a good tactic, and it will often just get you killed as a light, but it is pretty stupid looking when it actually happen (on those rare occasions). Generally it’s not an issue in most game modes though, and certainly isn’t game breaking - an assault who falls prey to it has generally already gotten himself into an untenable situation anyway.

My solution would be to introduce m-pods: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/M-Pod

have it be like a directional shell from an arty strike that only damages under 30m, and takes up tonnage/slots. Max one per mech, makes a nice alternative to rockets for an extra ton, discourages crotch hugging.

0-30 meter 15 damage per m-pod would be decent. Could do B and A pod for 45 and 60(90?) meters at lower damage (7 and 3 respectively?)with TT rules for loading (_)-pods.

[Wil McCullough]

Same fattie assault pilots have been finding new things to complain about lights since forever. Meanwhile light pilots just shrug, take countless nerfs to the chin and keep chewing the same [Redacted].

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 08 November 2018 - 02:17 PM.
insults, unconstructive

[Khobai]

Roughneck45, on 30 October 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

When you play a light, do you easily crush assaults?

this is a dumb excuse. just because lights cant crush assaults doesnt mean lights should be immune to assaults.

Wil McCullough, on 07 November 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

Meanwhile light pilots just shrug, take countless nerfs to the chin and keep chewing the same [Redacted].

most light pilots are idiots though. they expect lights to be as good as heavies and assaults at combat. that should NEVER happen. an assault should absolutely annihilate a light in a direct fight.

instead of trying to make lights more like heavies/assaults, like the pirahna attempted... lights should instead be made better at being lights. playing lights should be about avoiding direct combat and instead focus on guerilla tactics and taking advantage of their speed to engage isolated enemies. thats what lights need to be made better at... not leg humping assaults with 12 machine guns.

one of the biggest reasons lights struggle is because the gamemodes are super biased towards heavier mechs. the gamemodes dont force teams to spread out enough. of course lights/mediums are going to be weaker when they have to attack into deathballs and cant isolate enemies. the gamemodes are at fault. skirmish is the problem. the key to fixing lights/mediums is coming up with some better gamemodes that force teams to spread out to control the map, because then all four weight classes excel at something. Need more gamemodes like conquest.

Edited by draiocht, 08 November 2018 - 02:19 PM.
Quote Clean-up

[Sjorpha]

Assaults are much more powerful than lights already, so it's not a balance issue per se that lights can abuse their size a bit.

I do agree that some specific instances of leg humping get a little silly, and I think that the solution is to simply improve downwards pitch on some assaults.

I think it's fine for some assaults to have this weakness though, if it fits their role to be more reliant on their team for protection, for example I'm perfectly fine with the best ballistic boats having limited pitch as they own the mid angle dps game and it's fine for them to rely on the team in cqc.

But brawling oriented assaults like the Atlas should definitely be able to hit lights at leg humping ranges IMO.

[Khobai]

Sjorpha, on 08 November 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

Assaults are much more powerful than lights already, so it's not a balance issue per se that lights can abuse their size a bit.

two wrongs dont make a right though

its better to acknowledge that both leg humping and lights being underpowered are separate issues that need to be fixed.

rather than trying to justify leg humping being fine because lights are underpowered... no its really not fine. and its not fine that lights are underpowered either. both suck.

bringing back knockdowns is probably the best way to deal with leg humping. and adding better gamemodes that encourage teams to spread out instead of just deathball would help lights fully realize their potential. Since spread out enemy teams means lights would be better at guerilla tactics and isolating enemy mechs. Its not a coincidence that lights are stronger on conquest than skirmish, its because conquest is a better balanced gamemode for all four weight classes. Whereas skirmish is heavily biased towards heavies/assaults.

Edited by Khobai, 08 November 2018 - 01:20 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Khobai, on 08 November 2018 - 01:14 AM, said:

two wrongs dont make a right though

its better to acknowledge that both leg humping and lights being underpowered are separate issues that need to be fixed.

rather than trying to justify leg humping being fine because lights are underpowered... no its really not fine. and its not fine that lights are underpowered either. both suck.

I'm not sure who you're arguing with here, as in my post you're responding to I both acknowledged leg humping as an issue and suggested a fix.

Quote

bringing back knockdowns is probably the best way to deal with leg humping.

Knockdowns were a buggy mess and the implementation was horrible, the interaction with high ping players was glitchy and the waiting for the standup animation was annoying. It also worked as a stunlock exploit with mechs that combined high weight and high speed, a prevalent enough problem that "Dragon bowling" became a meme. There absolutely nothing that warrants bringing it back, and especially not a problem as miniscule as leg humping.

Ok, if it could be redone and done well, and PGI had the competence to do it, then it could be worth looking at. But I'm not sure it's even possible to do knockdowns well in an online game and I don't think PGI is up to the task even if it is.

Also I don't think there is any significant investments in MWO development, which a remake of knockdowns would require, the game is old and outdated, I wouldn't spend any more big money on it if I were PGI. So my belief is that any suggestion involving more than a tweak to existing mechanics and values is completely unrealistic

So buffs to downwards pitch range is something that could realistically happen, bringing back knockdowns isn't.

Quote

and adding better gamemodes that encourage teams to spread out instead of just deathball would help lights fully realize their potential. Since spread out enemy teams means lights would be better at guerilla tactics and isolating enemy mechs. Its not a coincidence that lights are stronger on conquest than skirmish, its because conquest is a better balanced gamemode for all four weight classes. Whereas skirmish is heavily biased towards heavies/assaults.

It's fine that different mechs are good/bad in different game modes just like they are in different maps, but I agree we could have some more game modes favoring lights.

[Gristle Missile]

Kill2Blit, on 07 November 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

having one ally nearby forces the light to move, which eliminates the leg humping. about the NASCAR:
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6183371

Its not a pervasive problem, but I wish it was that easy
People are blind to stealth armor (and ecm to a lesser extent) so there is a good chance they wont even notice in those cases. Even with voice coms people are stuck in their own world a lot of the time

And if by chance allies see and help you -there is a high chance that firing on the light does just as much friendly fire damage to your leg as the damage they are doing to the light. Even if the light mech dies like an suicidal idiot, could still be out a leg

For example: Ive wedged inside a dire wolf as a locust and let the enemy team LRM him to death from friendly fire

Edited by Gristle Missile, 08 November 2018 - 08:38 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

Armored Yokai, on 07 November 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

It's not whining, let me show you guys proof on why you are wrong.
I even posted a picture.

For the sake of intellectual honesty (lol), may I suggest you put an "EDITED (date): Added below" to your OP? Because it's not clear that you added the pictures fully a week after the first post.

S O L A I S, on 05 November 2018 - 11:24 PM, said:

A buff to pitch for pretty much every mech would be the best change in my opinion since this recent weeee fun heat vape bufferino.

That's what we had before the engine decoupling and new Skill Tree, and light queue was almost always below 10%, habitually below 6%. Now it's at least usually between 10% and 20%

Armored Yokai, on 07 November 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

With that my loadout you wont stand a chance simply because of he AC2s, I shouldnt be forced to change an entire build all because some light decides to abuse leg humping. The Annihilator is a slow and lumbering mech, by the time you try and move your arms to shoot he will already be on the other side and see you moving so he can easily just scooch over to the side to avoid you. The only way i can beat light is if they don't abuse leg humping, it's that simple.

Yes, yes you should.

That is literally the premise of the game--that's how every other pilot handles getting their *** shred to pieces by some other 'mech. Either you suffer through your hard counters, ask your teammates for help (wait, that sounds familiar) or you go back to the 'mechlab and find a way around it.

Khobai, on 08 November 2018 - 12:14 AM, said:

this is a dumb excuse. just because lights cant crush assaults doesnt mean lights should be immune to assaults.

most light pilots are idiots though. they expect lights to be as good as heavies and assaults at combat. that should NEVER happen. an assault should absolutely annihilate a light in a direct fight.

You anti-light pilots keep saying this like it's a fact. It's an opinion, and one that is obviously against the basic principles of MWO.

Khobai, on 08 November 2018 - 12:14 AM, said:

instead of trying to make lights more like heavies/assaults, like the pirahna attempted... lights should instead be made better at being lights. playing lights should be about avoiding direct combat and instead focus on guerilla tactics and taking advantage of their speed to engage isolated enemies.

You mean, like, dodging through fire to get behind an assault or under their firing arc and tearing through leg armor?

Khobai, on 08 November 2018 - 12:14 AM, said:

thats what lights need to be made better at... not leg humping assaults with 12 machine guns.

Oh, I see, maybe this is actually a Piranha OP thread after all

Khobai, on 08 November 2018 - 12:14 AM, said:

one of the biggest reasons lights struggle is because the gamemodes are super biased towards heavier mechs. the gamemodes dont force teams to spread out enough. of course lights/mediums are going to be weaker when they have to attack into deathballs and cant isolate enemies. the gamemodes are at fault. skirmish is the problem. the key to fixing lights/mediums is coming up with some better gamemodes that force teams to spread out to control the map, because then all four weight classes excel at something. Need more gamemodes like conquest.

On this I agree, and the more claustrophobic maps are incredibly punishing to non-JJ/non-ECM lights.

But even on Conquest in Polar Highlands, once the light(s) find the isolated assault, the best way for them to take it out is by closing and getting into its blind spots.

[Eisenhorne]

Khobai, on 08 November 2018 - 12:14 AM, said:

one of the biggest reasons lights struggle is because the gamemodes are super biased towards heavier mechs. the gamemodes dont force teams to spread out enough.

While the gamemodes don't help the situation, I think the lack of player skill also forces lights to be more useless / deathballs to be more common, but probably not in the way you think. Many players rely on brawling, which requires you to form a "deathball" to do a push. The best way to counter brawl play is to spread out into a wide firing line, with everyone taking a position to fire on the pushing deathball, and the guys closest to it to run away while the others kill the guys chasing the retreating player. Unfortunately, most players cannot shoot straight, so they cannot effectively do this, so everyone falls back on the death ball, because it's the easiest thing to do. This has the side effect that lights are much more ineffective than they normally would be.

[Jables McBarty]

Armored Yokai, on 30 October 2018 - 02:47 PM, said:

Leg humping is a broken and unsavory mechanic that allows small size to abuse another person, Leg humping players that impact the opponents leg should take 5-25 damage depending on the mech size to prevent lights from easily crushing an assault.

No, Lights are not OP. It's the Leg Humping that's the issue because we don't have melee or knockdown to punish the mechs that facehug your legs.

You are in an Annihilator. You and only a piranha remain. The Piranha loses most of it's torso to a well hit AC shot. Piranha runs to your leg and you can no longer aim at it because your arms have been blown off but you still have every torso gun. Mgun Creature then laughs because you stood no chance like an lrm boat.

With Mediums,Lights,Heavies there isn't issue because you are small enough to hit them and I'm talking about Assaults because many Assaults suffer from this issue.


No the arms are as far as they can go, look at the middle of the screen to show they can't get to that point.
Explain this.

The pictures are pretty, but they don't really help your case. You've already made it clear you don't mount arm weapons anyway. And as pointed out a few posts before this one, the Commando can only stay 100% within your arc for very brief periods of time. Nobody is denying that lights leg-hump, your complaint has always been that you think it's an exploit, when in fact it's an intentional balance design by PGI.

Let me explain two reasons why leg-humping will always, and probably must always, happen:

1. Firepower. To maximize firepower, most lights have to carry short-range weapons (the Panther is an outlier here). This means they must be close to be effective. If they are at close range, they will need to find blind-spots, which either means (a) circle-strafing, ( b ) getting behind the target, (c) leg-humping.

You might say, wait, what about (d) peek-and-poke. Sure, that works at range, but poking in a light at close range is a recipe for getting your face melted off. If you peek and poke-back, you'll be basically stationary for up to a couple seconds. If you boom-and-zoom, you can get away with it, but you spend more time exposed, and only get one volley off before you need to reposition. Also, boom-and-zoom lights always elicit cries of "lag-shield!" so in the context of these arguments I just see it as another route to "Lights OP".

2. Angular velocity and Parallax. I'm not a mathematician, but one thing I learned in middle school was the fact that if you stand at point A and observe near object B and distant object C traveling at the same speed, object B appears to be moving faster than object C.

What this means in MWO terms: Let's say I am in a Commando, and you are in an Annihilator. If I am 500m away from you moving at 163kph, you will have a much easier time aiming at and hitting me than if I am 50m away from you and moving at 163kph. I think this is because my angular velocity is greater the closer I am to the center of my circular traversal, even if my linear velocity is the same - but again, I'm not a mathematician.

The point is, if you are small, and vulnerable, but fast, you are ALWAYS safer closer to your target (assuming the target has good aim). The target will need to have better tracking skills, and possibly a target with slow torso rotation speed might not even be able to track you at close range.

This is why leg-humping and its allied activities occur. It's not an "exploit" its simple math.

It's why all of your fixes about damage and knockdowns will only serve to hurt new players, and will not affect the behaviors of skilled pilots, who can dodge legs while still at incredibly close range.

It's also why fixes to torso pitch/yaw angles and speeds are direct nerfs to lights - because adjusting those values improve tracking ability and make near-angle movement as dangerous as distant-angle movement - making light combat performance basically useless.

(EDIT: removed an accidental emoji)

Edited by Jables McBarty, 08 November 2018 - 10:14 AM.

[Armored Yokai]

Jables McBarty, on 08 November 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

when in fact it's an intentional balance design by PGI.

[color=#959595]It's not an "exploit" its simple math.[/color]

Where's the proof of them saying it's intentional? Lights being able to leg-hump with little punishment shouldn't be possible, The only way I should lose my assault to a light thats very close is if I have LRMS or if there are groups of them. If it was possible for PGI (Impossible at this point) to add some kind of screen option to allow players to target at the ground like in MW4 or Increase ram damage, this would allow snipers to fight back with a little more oomph vs brawlers or just punish leg humpers. I bet if a 12 man leg humped Paul like in beta, I'm positive you will see some leg humping nerfs.

Adding the MW4 m-key ground shooting feature would immediately disprove your theory about it being simple math.

[Jables McBarty]

Armored Yokai, on 08 November 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

Where's the proof of them saying it's intentional? Lights being able to leg-hump with little punishment shouldn't be possible, The only way I should lose my assault to a light thats very close is if I have LRMS or if there are groups of them. If it was possible for PGI (Impossible at this point) to add some kind of screen option to allow players to target at the ground like in MW4 or Increase ram damage, this would allow snipers to fight back with a little more oomph vs brawlers or just punish leg humpers. I bet if a 12 man leg humped Paul like in beta, I'm positive you will see some leg humping nerfs.

Adding the MW4 m-key ground shooting feature would immediately disprove your theory about it being simple math.

I come right out and say it - that capability is a direct nerf to lights.

Jables McBarty, on 08 November 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

It's also why fixes to torso pitch/yaw angles and speeds are direct nerfs to lights - because adjusting those values improve tracking ability and make near-angle movement as dangerous as distant-angle movement - making light combat performance basically useless.

Or like I said in reply to a previous post:

Jables McBarty, on 08 November 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

S O L A I S, on 05 November 2018 - 11:24 PM, said:

A buff to pitch for pretty much every mech would be the best change in my opinion since this recent weeee fun heat vape bufferino.

That's what we had before the engine decoupling and new Skill Tree, and light queue was almost always below 10%, habitually below 6%. Now it's at least usually between 10% and 20%

Whatever, add leg damage or knockdowns, you'll still get very-close-range-circle-strafing-that-is-functionally-inseparable-from-leg-humping because good pilots will toe that line and still **** you up.

Add the ability for any 'mech to hit anything directly below them, despite whatever build decisions the pilot made, and you nerf an entire class back into obscurity.

Somehow I feel like it's relevant to point out that I can't shoot UAVs in my splat shadowhawk. Do I get on forums and ask for a special "Shoot UAV" button? No. I press Caps Lock and tell my teammates "UAV over Echo 4. My arms can't reach it." And 9 times out of 10, an ally takes it down.

If you want a game where snipers can do snapshot 360-degree headshots and not be vulnerable to anything... you're playing the wrong game.

[ThreeStooges]

If only pgi could do knockdowns then there would be no leg humping, we'd all go back to dragons instead.

[Jables McBarty]

Armored Yokai, on 08 November 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

Where's the proof of them saying it's intentional?

The proof is that they stated early on that they want lights to be a viable, balanced option for multiplayer in an internet combat-based game.

So unless you want to completely re-design the game (which, I know, lots of y'all forumites do want), PGI needs to make light 'mechs combat viable.

As I described above, the design of the game, in which lights are vulnerable, fast, and primarily short-ranged, means that lights are most effective moving at high speeds very close to their targets, because math.

This does not necessarily lead to "leg-humping" precisely, but it leads to nearly indistinguishable tactics, like circle-strafing, back stabbing, and close-angle boom-and-zoom.

Increasing assault agility, or adding "Press M to kill lights" (which, incidentally, is the premise of a Streakcrow), or giving torso weapons the same ROM as arm weapons, all that undermines the fundamental aspects of weight-class balance.

[Armored Yokai]

Jables McBarty, on 08 November 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

Add the ability for any 'mech to hit anything directly below them, despite whatever build decisions the pilot made, and you nerf an entire class back into obscurity.

You have flat and unimaginative thinking. Lights wont be nerfed into obscurity, to say such a thing is very silly.
Lights will have to rely on teammates instead of rambo yum yum leg. Assaults will always be focused targets and easily whittled down by poke-warfare. Lights will still be strong, but only if they stay with the team and use their team as the target of focus. Lights are not meant to rambo, but scout and do hit and runs.

[Dee Eight]

Simple solution... introduce M-pods... game timeline they now fit (having been developed in 3064) and they'd make a mess of leg humpers.

[Grus]

Just bring back knockdown.. solved.