53 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Anjian, on 27 November 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

Then the tanks will end up looking like they are floating on highly irregular terrain, which MWO maps have far too plenty of. So many of MWO's maps are genuine tank unfriendly.

In the end, it makes MWO look like a cheap game even further.

It will only enforce immersion, because Battlemechs were created due to their superior hill climbing ability. Tanks being limited to certain parts of the maps is actually in keeping with the lore so I am entirely fine with it. People will just have to accept the disadvantages with the advantages when choosing to pilot tanks. If the disadvantage is proven to be too much then tanks can get certain buffs to compensate for that such as superior accel/decel, or extra armor. Finally roads and bridges will have use.

[Anjian]

El Bandito, on 27 November 2018 - 09:40 PM, said:

It will only enforce immersion, because Battlemechs were created due to their superior hill climbing ability. Tanks being limited to certain parts of the maps is actually in keeping with the lore so I am entirely fine with it. People will just have to accept the disadvantages with the advantages when choosing to pilot tanks. If the disadvantage is proven to be too much then tanks can get certain buffs to compensate for that such as superior accel/decel, or extra armor. Finally roads and bridges will have use.

I doubt that people will play tanks after that, making it a complete waste of time for development. Because a team with 8 mechs and 4 tanks vs. 6 mechs and 6 tanks essentially becomes 8 mechs vs. 6 mechs, giving the team with 8 mechs an immediate advantage and the other team to lose. Tanks already suffer from the lack of height and so they already face many obstacles for shooting. Superior armor won't matter when they can't torso twist to distribute damage, and vulnerable from missiles from the top.

The only game rationale they can ever have is to have the game respawns, with the tank or tanks last ditch and free tonnage alternatives once all the mechs are consumed.

Edited by Anjian, 28 November 2018 - 12:52 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Anjian, on 28 November 2018 - 12:50 AM, said:

I doubt that people will play tanks after that, making it a complete waste of time for development. Because a team with 8 mechs and 4 tanks vs. 6 mechs and 6 tanks essentially becomes 8 mechs vs. 6 mechs, giving the team with 8 mechs an immediate advantage and the other team to lose. Tanks already suffer from the lack of height and so they already face many obstacles for shooting. Superior armor won't matter when they can't torso twist to distribute damage, and vulnerable from missiles from the top.

The only game rationale they can ever have is to have the game respawns, with the tank or tanks last ditch and free tonnage alternatives once all the mechs are consumed.

It's not about having a tank going toe on toe with a battle'mech. It's about options and content in the game. Tank respawns for the "losing" team in FP for example would be pretty fun.

Also, in Living legends a lot of players rocking tanks instead of battle'mechs, yes they die sooner but they get into another tank.
Or lrm 80 backup barrier to support the lights in the front. Or Long tom support.

I get that quad mechs are cool but they won't add much to the gameplay, just a different mech to shoot at.

Vehicle reinforcement on the other hand can add a lot of gameplay mechanics and content.
I'm also fairly certain PGI has a good bunch of model ready from MW5, or can take some from HBS since they also shared the mech art.

Anjian, on 27 November 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

Sooner or later this game will face the harsh reality it cannot sustain regional servers anymore.

Currently i either play faction or quickplay with NA and EU checked. I never wait more then 1 minute to catch a game.
One point in time MWO will certainly reach the end of its lifespan but it's definitely not now.
I do not want to play a shooter with 300+ ping, that is not fun for me.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 29 November 2018 - 09:32 AM.

[Anjian]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 29 November 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

It's not about having a tank going toe on toe with a battle'mech. It's about options and content in the game. Tank respawns for the "losing" team in FP for example would be pretty fun.

Also, in Living legends a lot of players rocking tanks instead of battle'mechs, yes they die sooner but they get into another tank.
Or lrm 80 backup barrier to support the lights in the front. Or Long tom support.

I get that quad mechs are cool but they won't add much to the gameplay, just a different mech to shoot at.

Vehicle reinforcement on the other hand can add a lot of gameplay mechanics and content.
I'm also fairly certain PGI has a good bunch of model ready from MW5, or can take some from HBS since they also shared the mech art.

Tanks and even VTOLS can make sense if you incorporate respawns. War Thunder can put tanks and planes or ships and planes in the same deck. However if you also have mechs for respawns, what would make a person choose a tank instead of a mech? This is where you need some kind of a threat or battle value system that would gives tank a low number on a highly rationed and limited points system, making tanks economically attractive.

Quad mechs can be made special if you give them a different attribute, such as high steep climbing angles. This is for spider bots. Other quad mechs of a different beast design can stress high mobility and low profile.

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Currently i either play faction or quickplay with NA and EU checked. I never wait more then 1 minute to catch a game.
One point in time MWO will certainly reach the end of its lifespan but it's definitely not now.
I do not want to play a shooter with 300+ ping, that is not fun for me.

I often get more than one minute with three servers checked, if one server is checked I can get longer.

Other multiplayer games I play I can find a match in five seconds.

You won't get a server with 300 ping if you have one in the US.

Even players from Oceania will get mostly around 200 to 250 plus, rarely 300+, to a server in the US. 150+ in California, around 220+ in New Jersey while European players get around 130+ to New Jersey and still less than 200 in California. There is no reason you can get a 300+ ping on both Oceania and Europe players connected to the US or Canada servers unless these players have a bad connection. First three years of MWO worked fine with a single server, and all FP are fought in a single server.

Edited by Anjian, 29 November 2018 - 04:46 PM.

[Tesunie]

Anjian, on 29 November 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

I often get more than one minute with three servers checked, if one server is checked I can get longer.

Other multiplayer games I play I can find a match in five seconds.

I will comment that, this is subjective to the times you are playing at, and the queues you are joining. Just general QP solo queues tend to have reasonably fast queue times. Meanwhile, FP not during an event or prime time hours could "never" find a match for you to play in.

I'll also leave the remark that I've had some other games with even longer queue times than MW:O, much longer. It really depends upon the game, how much population it has at that time (or even on average), the match maker involved, your placement in the MM system, etc.

[GuardDogg]

A Overlord or Union drop ship would be something to see in MWO. Specially walking out of one. Still waiting.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Anjian, on 29 November 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

Tanks and even VTOLS can make sense if you incorporate respawns. War Thunder can put tanks and planes or ships and planes in the same deck. However if you also have mechs for respawns, what would make a person choose a tank instead of a mech? This is where you need some kind of a threat or battle value system that would gives tank a low number on a highly rationed and limited points system, making tanks economically attractive.

Totally agree, just adding vehicles as a mech replacement won't do. I can currently see them as a reinfocrment for faction play (sorta as a 5th "budget" wave, maybe with a forwarded drop off point). Maybe something scouts need to work for.
Then again, faction play is in dire need for a rework and ideas which play around with addition content (such as tanks and hover aircrafts for example) should be well kept in mind.
A whole new system such as battlevalue/points, yep would be nice but i don't see it happen. Having literally every mech a custom build makes it extremely difficult to assign a value. Having the infamus lrm/mg atlas with the same battlepoints as a dedicated ac20/srm maxed out survival atlas just won't work although it's the same mech variant.

Anjian, on 29 November 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

Quad mechs can be made special if you give them a different attribute, such as high steep climbing angles. This is for spider bots. Other quad mechs of a different beast design can stress high mobility and low profile.

Now if we wouldn't have mechs with jumpjets which can literally hop over obstacles. I can see sidestepping as a huge advantage compared to regular mechs but that's about it (beside rule of cool ofc).

Anjian, on 29 November 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

I often get more than one minute with three servers checked, if one server is checked I can get longer.

Other multiplayer games I play I can find a match in five seconds.

You won't get a server with 300 ping if you have one in the US.

I play in EU timezone, sometimes afternoon or even up to late night, i always get games in less then 1 minute.

I do play other games with queue times up to 15 minutes, i think MWO has very very short que times.

Anjian, on 29 November 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

Even players from Oceania will get mostly around 200 to 250 plus, rarely 300+, to a server in the US. 150+ in California, around 220+ in New Jersey while European players get around 130+ to New Jersey and still less than 200 in California. There is no reason you can get a 300+ ping on both Oceania and Europe players connected to the US or Canada servers unless these players have a bad connection. First three years of MWO worked fine with a single server, and all FP are fought in a single server.

HSR, try playing with euro ping on the NA server vs someone from oceanic. That's my 130 ping + his 300 ping. It's super wonky.
Even dirtier is if i play on Oceanic with 250+ ping vs someone from NA with 200+ ping. That's like half a second delay, nope not playing like that. Can't place shots, can't dodge, take cover or twist because hsr decides for you. I mean, that's the burn time of a large pulse and you can't react to it at all other then playing a guessing game.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 30 November 2018 - 04:15 AM.

[Anjian]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 30 November 2018 - 04:14 AM, said:

Totally agree, just adding vehicles as a mech replacement won't do. I can currently see them as a reinfocrment for faction play (sorta as a 5th "budget" wave, maybe with a forwarded drop off point). Maybe something scouts need to work for.
Then again, faction play is in dire need for a rework and ideas which play around with addition content (such as tanks and hover aircrafts for example) should be well kept in mind.
A whole new system such as battlevalue/points, yep would be nice but i don't see it happen. Having literally every mech a custom build makes it extremely difficult to assign a value. Having the infamus lrm/mg atlas with the same battlepoints as a dedicated ac20/srm maxed out survival atlas just won't work although it's the same mech variant.

VTOLs are not hard to do in the game, but they would be fairly easy to get blown out of the sky. These are good for as respawn alternatives.

Hovercrafts are also fragile, but also good as respawn alternatives along with tanks. The choice of VTOL, hovercraft and tank can depend on the player's decision of the tactical situation.

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Now if we wouldn't have mechs with jumpjets which can literally hop over obstacles. I can see sidestepping as a huge advantage compared to regular mechs but that's about it (beside rule of cool ofc).

It is not just hopping over obstacles. Its about climbing high into slopes and using them as a sniping position.



... which can be very deadly. Sometimes what it needs is another spider bot to go up there and take them down. Or a VTOL. Note the diagram on the upper right hand corner. That is how you can express four legs and depict damage to each of them.



VTOL.




I see BoT Nelly a good approximation to the BT Stalking Spider.

BoT Mite would be a good approximation to the BT Revenant.


BT has some mechs that are both multilegged and wheeled.


Robokrieg is a mobile mech game, fairly easy to play casually, seems to have been done by one person on a small budget. It makes a handy basic tech demonstrator if you look past the low res textures. Most mechs are bipedal, but there are flying drones, quad mechs and tanks.

Tank vs. Quad



Mech with three legs and wheels.



Mech with wheeled base.



Beastlike quads. These are very similar to BT's Xanthos. Note the weapons swiveling on top.

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I play in EU timezone, sometimes afternoon or even up to late night, i always get games in less then 1 minute.

I do play other games with queue times up to 15 minutes, i think MWO has very very short que times.



HSR, try playing with euro ping on the NA server vs someone from oceanic. That's my 130 ping + his 300 ping. It's super wonky.
Even dirtier is if i play on Oceanic with 250+ ping vs someone from NA with 200+ ping. That's like half a second delay, nope not playing like that. Can't place shots, can't dodge, take cover or twist because hsr decides for you. I mean, that's the burn time of a large pulse and you can't react to it at all other then playing a guessing game.

You must really play some unpopular games to have 15 minute queues. Like I said I play some games that have queues that can let you in within 2 to 16 seconds, and you don't have to wait for another 50 seconds for the team to assemble.

Edited by Anjian, 30 November 2018 - 03:54 PM.

[Shadowomega1]

Anjian, on 25 November 2018 - 12:10 AM, said:

I am not very convinced of that because Battletech is centered around big stompy mechs. Its for this reason why i don't expect adding helicopters to War Thunder or submarines to World of Warships are going to boost their player populations.

I remembered how 'mechless" armies began to dominate the Mechwarrior Dark Age venues, that the creative directors had a massive balance overhaul to make sure that the armies is about having at least one mech in it, this after the player base had a big uproar.

No Mechwarrior is centered around big stompy mechs; Battletech is full on combined arms.

VonBruinwald, on 23 November 2018 - 05:52 PM, said:

A bit late, but yes.

Always felt the VIP should be a tank.

Actually I wouldn't mind it being a Super Heavy Mech, that can shoot. Say a recovered Matar

[Tesunie]

Anjian, on 30 November 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

You must really play some unpopular games to have 15 minute queues. Like I said I play some games that have queues that can let you in within 2 to 16 seconds, and you don't have to wait for another 50 seconds for the team to assemble.

Quads could have a place in the game without needing to be able to "climb steep walls". They tend to be more stable and "hunker down" taking better advantage of cover. That's how they operate in BT. Besides better stability and being able to take better advantage of terrain features, they otherwise operate like other mechs.

As for Queue times, Starconquest can (and has) had queue times within minutes. I've waited 10+ minutes in their queues before. Same with Robocraft (occasionally). I find MW:O's queue times to be well more than reasonable (most times).

[Anjian]

Tesunie, on 30 November 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

Quads could have a place in the game without needing to be able to "climb steep walls". They tend to be more stable and "hunker down" taking better advantage of cover. That's how they operate in BT. Besides better stability and being able to take better advantage of terrain features, they otherwise operate like other mechs.

As for Queue times, Starconquest can (and has) had queue times within minutes. I've waited 10+ minutes in their queues before. Same with Robocraft (occasionally). I find MW:O's queue times to be well more than reasonable (most times).

I don't see the point of waiting 10 minutes for a match that is decisively ended within 2 or 3 minutes. Long wait queues greatly damaged the PvP for Armored Warfare in the North American market, and players moved to the European servers.

If you hunker down, you end up having your line of sight being obscured by obstacles. That is a double edged sword. I would think it would backfire even more, since it would force the quad out of cover just to get a shot without having an obstacle. This depends completely on the map design and is highly situational. You also need a special command to elevate and depress the mech.

Many mech shooter games including MWO does not have a stability element for ballistics, and I have not seen the use of this in a mech real time action video game since Armored Core and Chromehounds, both by the same developer.

In order for this to work, ballistics need to have a cone of fire, with a circular error of probability. The less stable the platform is, the greater the shot CEP, which increases spread or dispersion. This is like saying giving bonuses to RAC and LBX reduced spread. The increased stability of the platform also means bonuses in the rate of fire, and reduced jam chance (if implemented). The CEP mechanics should extend to all cannon, autocannon and shotgun type weapons in order to make these bonuses even more meaningful. In other games, you can express this through a circle bloom --- the more stable the platform, the faster the circle shrinks. The circle size expresses the circular error of probability. But there are players that hate this, or of any sort of randomization spread with gun fire. I remember this was even discussed in a thread on this forum. Its for this reason why many games forego this.

Armored Core and Chromehounds has a stability factor for legs, in this order: For this reason tracked and quads are used with artillery, and reverse joint bipedals are given a stronger edge on over forward joint bipedals. These games treat stability with great detail and choosing the right legs for your custom mech makes a huge difference.





Stability is critical getting through AC's boss missions, making each shot land at the target instead of missing. I finished this mission with large autocannons that are so erratic on front joint, that its better used on reverse joints, quads or tracked.

Edited by Anjian, 30 November 2018 - 11:47 PM.

[Anjian]

Anjian, on 30 November 2018 - 11:25 PM, said:

I don't see the point of waiting 10 minutes for a match that is decisively ended within 2 or 3 minutes. Long wait queues greatly damaged the PvP for Armored Warfare in the North American market, and players moved to the European servers.

If you hunker down, you end up having your line of sight being obscured by obstacles. That is a double edged sword. I would think it would backfire even more, since it would force the quad out of cover just to get a shot without having an obstacle. This depends completely on the map design and is highly situational. You also need a special command to elevate and depress the mech.

Many mech shooter games including MWO does not have a stability element for ballistics, and I have not seen the use of this in a mech real time action video game since Armored Core and Chromehounds, both by the same developer.

In order for this to work, ballistics need to have a cone of fire, with a circular error of probability. The less stable the platform is, the greater the shot CEP, which increases spread or dispersion. This is like saying giving bonuses to RAC and LBX reduced spread. The increased stability of the platform also means bonuses in the rate of fire, and reduced jam chance (if implemented). The CEP mechanics should extend to all cannon, autocannon and shotgun type weapons in order to make these bonuses even more meaningful. In other games, you can express this through a circle bloom --- the more stable the platform, the faster the circle shrinks. The circle size expresses the circular error of probability. But there are players that hate this, or of any sort of randomization spread with gun fire. I remember this was even discussed in a thread on this forum. Its for this reason why many games forego this.

On a very simplified way, you can also try to express stability benefits on a quad legged platform to ballistics by reducing cool downs and spreads if applicable, through quirks. Another potential idea is a range boost.

Hunker down + ECM to boost stealth.

Edited by Anjian, 01 December 2018 - 02:05 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Anjian, on 30 November 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

The choice of VTOL, hovercraft and tank can depend on the player's decision of the tactical situation.

Yes totally, i thank that could be something scouts or the faction as a whole can have as a goal to work for.
Even personal faction ranks could play into it, so they have more meaning.

Oh and i meantioned VTOL just because i don't think airplanes would work with MWO maps.

Regarding quad mechs and terrain.

Anjian, on 30 November 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

It is not just hopping over obstacles. Its about climbing high into slopes and using them as a sniping position.

I understand your point. However, i still think this is already covered by jumpjet capable mechs working their way onto higher positions, such as mountains on boreal, alphine and even crimson (which got actually patched out).

Anjian, on 30 November 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

You must really play some unpopular games to have 15 minute queues.

Ya, really unpopular stuff like League of Legends and such, you probably never heard of it.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 01 December 2018 - 06:55 AM.

[Anjian]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 01 December 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

Yes totally, i thank that could be something scouts or the faction as a whole can have as a goal to work for.
Even personal faction ranks could play into it, so they have more meaning.

Oh and i meantioned VTOL just because i don't think airplanes would work with MWO maps.

Regarding quad mechs and terrain.



I understand your point. However, i still think this is already covered by jumpjet capable mechs working their way onto higher positions, such as mountains on boreal, alphine and even crimson (which got actually patched out).

That was the right idea, or the wrong one depending on your perspective. There is nothing stopping you from coding anything climbing up slopes. Or making an Atlas fly. The question is whether it makes sense or it looks funny or is intended as part of the design. In MWO's case, it wasn't, which is why they were patched out.

That is different from a game that intends to have climbers as part of the design, and this includes balancing measures against the climbers.

Like scaling up vertical walls up at towers and snipe from the tops.



Which might look overpowered, and indeed if not countered they can be, but these are countered by other means.

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Ya, really unpopular stuff like League of Legends and such, you probably never heard of it.

Reverse situation. The game is so popular that the servers hit the maximum number of games and cannot create a new game instance. Or it can be that the matchmaker queue has reached its maximum queue size and you are put into a secondary waiting queue. In which case these are not a desirable situation either, definitely inexcusable, and the company should buy more server capacity because you should not be waiting.

Edited by Anjian, 01 December 2018 - 09:03 AM.