159 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

Joshua McEvedy, on 05 December 2018 - 06:02 PM, said:

Awright then, let's just make all mechs the same but with different skins, using identical technology and with every weapon doing one point of damage per shot.

Would that make you and the FPS crowd happy?

(chuckles)

Of course it would NOT be the identical, only equivalent in how all 3 surviving engines would deal with the loss of the 1st ST. And once that ST is destroyed, each engine would have a different speed percentage and engine heat dissipation. Never mind the weapons and other components are NOT identical, only equivalent. It also means that IS mech will be available to soak up some more damage, deal a little bit of damage, or be useful in other ways until it is put down like a Clan or LFE equipped IS mech.

And quirks change all the time. Look at what is happening with the Anni and it is using a STD engine when it equips a HGR. Many of the durability quirks on both IS and Clan mechs are primarily due to bad hitboxes, and Clan mechs do NOT die to the loss of 1st ST with cXL. And their equipment is generally LIGHTER, takes up fewer slots, and especially for the Clan battlemechs are able to better utilize Endo/Ferro for additional weight savings since each only takes up 7 slots each instead of the IS 14 slots each.

- edited.. domo Void Angel...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 05 December 2018 - 06:40 PM.

[Void Angel]

Don't respond to ad hominem straw men, Tarl. It's never beneficial. =)

Much like these endless "PGI Doesn't Listen," or "Who Does PGI Listen To" threads. The threads always follow the same formula with the same arguments presented - only the data points change:

People want Change(s) X, and they've possibly (though not always by any means) put a lot of thought into Why It Could Work. They post their arguments on the forums and then wait - usually hedging their bets with jaded commentary about "whether PGI will actually listen."

When PGI then fails to adopt their idea, they accuse the company of Not Listening to Their Players - meaning the group of people that agrees with them, apparently. Claims without adequate evidence about What the Community Wants are bandied about (if they weren't already,) and people make a thread about Why Doesn't PGI Just Listen - or that Doesn't Know What PGI Is Thinking.


Real dialogue goes both ways, and - most importantly - acknowledges the other party's right to disagree.

[SFC174]

Lightfoot, on 04 December 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

But the reward for coming to Faction Play has always been missing and it really needs to be like a quest reward players will drool over, but is not OP or pay to win. Something players will want on every mech. So I'll just toss out an example. Say through points and/or capturing planets players earned a data card (so to speak) that could be inserted into a mech's single data card slot (and also removed). This data card would grant a bit better armor, cooling, damage, speed, or the best one, adds a single hardpoint at the location the player chooses. Something like that would get everyone playing Faction Play. Then it would just need to be an immersive Mech Pilot experience.

So if I don't play Faction Warfare I'll be at a disadvantage in SoloQP against guys who do? Trying to lure players into a crap mode with ever increasing bribes is not the way to build a player base. The day I'm forced to play Faction to be competitive in SoloQ is the day I uninstall the game.

Some people (I suspect a significant percentage of the player base) just don't want anything to do with FW. If you try and punish them for not playing, you'll just drive them completely out of the game. Right now I can buy MC to get more mechbays rather than go dumpster diving in FW. But if you give FW people a mech performance upgrade that can _only_ be had through FW.....

[justcallme A S H]

KodiakGW, on 05 December 2018 - 01:02 PM, said:

Good, better him than the people who have been influencing their decisions to date. There is a big difference between listening, and thoughtfully considering a suggestion opposite of what you want to hear.

Paul actually came to lunch with us today and even shouted us lunch (a few 228 guys, Tina, Hobo & myself). That was an amazing gesture and totally unexpected.

While the chat was basically off the record and I'll keep it that way (which was good as lots of stuff was just spitballing) - I did understand more of what he meant at the same time.

I think there is just a bit of a disconnect between what the community expected based on what he said and what he had in his mind. I said as much to him so he was aware if what I thought.

We (community) expected everything to be outlined again. Paul already kinda did that. I'm still basically a day away from getting home (sitting at LAX). I'll post what I can when I can. Don't expect some huge pile of info as again, it was just a informal chat over lunch and it'll stay that way.

Suffice to say stuff is coming but it's just not in the Dec patch. So perhaps allay the pitchforks just a little.



What I CAN say though after talking to Chris is the Dec patch will be good. I've really, REALLY liked the last 2 patches with mobility on many mechs and new quirks etc etc. More of that is coming!!! Hell, yes I say.

[Void Angel]

SFC174, on 05 December 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

So if I don't play Faction Warfare I'll be at a disadvantage in SoloQP against guys who do? Trying to lure players into a crap mode with ever increasing bribes is not the way to build a player base. The day I'm forced to play Faction to be competitive in SoloQ is the day I uninstall the game.

He's correct that the reward for the higher time and effort investment required to really succeed in faction warfare is inadequate. That's a big part of -why- faction warfare participation stagnated in the first place; I know, I was there. But You're also correct that giving people a substantial, must-have advantage that can only be gotten from Faction Warfare would be a Very Bad Idea. On a number of levels.

First, you'll almost certainly drive players away from the game if you succeed in boosting FW attendance this way. The very need for such a reward means that players don't enjoy faction warfare for whatever reason; adding more players via a gear incentive is probably not going to change the reasons they don't play the mode. So either the reward will be trivial, in which case most players won't care, or else it will be substantial to some extent. If it's substantial enough that players feel they have to play a game mode they dislike to get it? They're not going to be happy, and you'll see player participation in the game drop out of disgust, if nothing else.

Also, you could divvy out this advantage in one of two general ways: You'd require a lot of investment in FW to get the upgrade, or you'd require only some investment. If it required a huge investment, you'll drive people away from the game mode because they feel (rightly) that they're being forced to play a mode they find less enjoyable just to keep up with the Joneses, as it were. But the other option, the trivial investment (possibly with a periodic reset requirement?) You have no idea. It will be hellish.

Hang on to your hat for a bit, because it's Story Time. I must tell you about suffering; I must tell you of WoW.

I must tell you of Children's Week.

Every year, World of Warcraft has a charming event where you go to your faction capital and pick out an orphan to take sightseeing around Azeroth and beyond. You take him or her to see the sights, do certain activities - including capturing the central point in one of the game's battlegrounds. Once you have gotten all of the activities completed with your orphan tagging along, you get an achievement that, together with all the other "seasonal" achievements offered throughout the year, will grant you a unique riding mount.

It. is. horrible. No, worse than that. You cannot understand unless you've lived it. I am not allowed on these forums to use language strong enough to even vaguely convey the horror - and in any case, a command of profanity built up more than two decades of military service has left me no words adequate to the task. It turns out that a lot of the people who collect achievements for mounts, and pretty princess ponies, and magical fairy costumes or what-have-you are carebears who hate PvP. They resent having to go capture that flag, and when they queue up they will ignore the battleground's intended strategies and mechanics to simply try to capture that flag. They will burn ten-minute cooldowns to force their "teammates" to drop said flag so that they can pick it up instead - and they will fail, over and over, because they suck at PvP and probably have no gear for it in the first place. Every time that battleground came up for the entire duration of the event, it was hell.

That's what Faction Warfare will turn into if you force people who do not enjoy it to play. They will hate the mode, they will hate you, and they will use any build or strategy possible to circumvent the intent of that game mode and get through their required grind faster. Woe to you if you require some kind of performance standard to be met; they'll either quit or just faceroll gen rush with lights over and over and over until they happen to get people who are just as checked out as they are for that win.

It won't work - and it will hurt if it's tried.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 December 2018 - 09:22 PM.

[Chris Lowrey]

Going to step in here and add a bit more clarity as well as curb a few expectations to what Ash said regarding the Dec. Patch, as I was cleared to talk about a good deal of it for 'Mech_Con, but was never asked, nor was it major enough to really roll into the main stage PGI announcement time.

December patch is tentatively scheduled to bring with it mechanics changes to Stealth armor, and a massive amount of mobility changes.

No real weapon changes for Dec. As we wanted to carve through a much larger backlog of the mobility changes than we have before (Aiming for changes to around 20 Chassis' with varying degrees of changes) Which should leave us with only a few final stragglers to those changes that we will be looking at over coming months depending on some other things on-deck.

These things are still in QA at the moment though, so there is always the chance that some of the things may be bumped into later patches. We will have to see what gets cleared for release by the time we release the patch notes.

[justcallme A S H]

Chris Lowrey, on 05 December 2018 - 09:34 PM, said:

Going to step in here and add a bit more clarity as well as curb a few expectations to what Ash said regarding the Dec. Patch, as I was cleared to talk about a good deal of it for 'Mech_Con, but was never asked, nor was it major enough to really roll into the main stage PGI announcement time.

December patch is tentatively scheduled to bring with it mechanics changes to Stealth armor, and a massive amount of mobility changes.

No real weapon changes for Dec. As we wanted to carve through a much larger backlog of the mobility changes than we have before (Aiming for changes to around 20 Chassis' with varying degrees of changes) Which should leave us with only a few final stragglers to those changes that we will be looking at over coming months depending on some other things on-deck.

These things are still in QA at the moment though, so there is always the chance that some of the things may be bumped into later patches. We will have to see what gets cleared for release by the time we release the patch notes.

Ooo sorry if I pumped it too much haha... But 20 mechs getting mobility buffs... That's what got me pumped!

I think many others will be also about this as it's definitely reinvigorated that side of gameplay for me for Dec patch..

[Nightbird]

Chris Lowrey, on 05 December 2018 - 09:34 PM, said:

Any chance of a road map? I know much is on your plate, but it would do much to rollback the tide of negative thoughts. It doesn't sound like this patch will do much by itself (makes sense since mechcon), but something is needed at this point.

[Sjorpha]

Chris Lowrey, on 04 December 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

I can't recall what he asked either.

If we where squirming, it was probably to try and hear what was being said. We where not mic'ed up with ear pieces and the audio was mostly being projected to the crowd so it was tough to hear what was being said on stage unless someone really spoke up into those little blue boxes. Or was in fairly close proximity to the stage. I can't recall myself what Ash said in that particular Q&A, but we spoke to each other on multiple occasions throughout the event so if he was talking about something that falls into my area he is free to poke me if I didn't respond to what he was asking in the Q&A in one of the many other times we talked at the event.

Also, I did not intend to have this tread derail to just be about Mech_Con. Since we are currently pretty far off the rails from where the OP started and I have yet to see any further questions regarding where we take our feedback from, I'm going to have to withdraw and get back to work. Regarding the Mech_Con stuff, not trying to defend anything so much as provide a different perspective. Up to others to make of it what they will of it since you can't change the past, but I need to focus on what is currently on my plate for what is coming in MWO's future.

Look, it's very simple really. The community want's to know what you concrete plans for the game is. What major features are next up for development. How will MWO be brought up to current gen standards. What new maps are in development. How are you planning to make Faction Play better. And so on and so forth.

You know, content, details, meat and potatoes. We were expecting the presentation to have that, at least some of it.

It's not about Paul and whether he was tired or not, not really. It becomes about that because YOU ANNOUNCED NO NEW CONTENT AND GAVE NO NEW INFORMATION!

Also, those expectations are expectations you at PGI have created by hyping and referring to mech con during the year. You understand? People actually get excited about what might come, they actually have their hopes up. And then you say literally nothing. Actual nothing! I mean, really?

Here are some things the presentations at mechcon could have included:

A powerpoint presentation with a bullet list of upcoming changes to Faction Play.

A video of the latest map in development

A roadmap and timeline for MWO development during 2019

A showcase of a new game mode, of updates to the less popular game modes.

etc, etc.

Now that what the expected kind of presentation at an event like this after a year with so little substantial new content, now I understand that you may not have any of that in the works. Maybe the is actual nothing planned, nothing to expect and nothing to tell your community.

But that means giving up on MWO, doesn't it? That's what people are hearing, that you're giving up and there will only be minor changes and mechpacks for a while til it dies. THAT is the message a presentation like that conveys, and people are pissed.

Forget Paul being tired, forget explaining why the presentation flopped like that. It doesn't matter, not really.

This is the question that matters:

What exactly is your plan for MWO development? What new content is under development and planned for development? We'd love to know, thanks.

[Bud Crue]

Sjorpha, on 06 December 2018 - 12:14 AM, said:

...
What exactly is your plan for MWO development? What new content is under development and planned for development? We'd love to know, thanks.

There appears to be a big disconnect here.

When we (members of the MWO community) ask questions along the lines of “What new content is under development, etc.?” we are expecting things like new maps, new modes, changes to game play that will feel unique, even truly big picture stuff like an engine upgrade. But based on at least Chris’s responses above, PGI sees “development” and “content” as fixing things already in game (see his comment about forth coming stealth armor rework) and making continued balance changes (see his and Ash’s exchange regarding continued agility changes as discussed with Paul), etc.

So what many of us see as the expected status quo of PGI’s maintenance of the game via monthly patches of their never ending “balance” changes and fixing of things they broke, they (PGI) see as proof positive of their dedication to the game’s continued development. From their perspective: its “if we weren’t dedicated to the game’s future why would we bother fixing things that are broken or trying to balance things?” Fom our perspective its more along the lines of “great, fix stuff, but what else ya got?”

I think part of the issue with Mechcon 2018 and PGI’s communications both during it and afterward that has many of us somewhat distraught -over and above the disaster that derived from Paul hinting at a big Mechcon reveal in the FP development thread only to be too tired to not give even a list of what was planned- is a result of the expectations of precedent. In years past while MW5 was certainly a focus of the celebration, there were truly big changes announced for MWO as well, that pretty much everyone would agree was substantive “content” or showed “dedication to the game’s future development”, regardless of what one thought about those “big changes” otherwise. Things like FP phase 4 and the Skill Tree for example, may have not been universally praised, but they clearly showed PGI was still going to keep this whole MWO thing going and that there was still a future to look forward too. But this year? Well rather than an announced big change, we got a forgotten list of things discussed in a forum thread about minimal effort changes to FP and a hint during a Q&A about maybe someday doing an engine upgrade with help and a new license.

And now we have Chris up above, and Paul with Ash and co in person, trying hard to convince us that more fixes and balance changes...in other words the same thing they do on a regular basis, stuff that many of us take for granted as status quo now is really to be considered new content and shows a dedication to the future development of the game. Contrast that to the sort of “big changes” type announcements folks have come to expect at a mechcon, and well, it shouldn’t be a surprise that to PGI that folks are questioning their supposed dedication to future development.

Oh well.

[MischiefSC]

justcallme A S H, on 05 December 2018 - 09:16 PM, said:

Paul actually came to lunch with us today and even shouted us lunch (a few 228 guys, Tina, Hobo & myself). That was an amazing gesture and totally unexpected.

While the chat was basically off the record and I'll keep it that way (which was good as lots of stuff was just spitballing) - I did understand more of what he meant at the same time.

I think there is just a bit of a disconnect between what the community expected based on what he said and what he had in his mind. I said as much to him so he was aware if what I thought.

We (community) expected everything to be outlined again. Paul already kinda did that. I'm still basically a day away from getting home (sitting at LAX). I'll post what I can when I can. Don't expect some huge pile of info as again, it was just a informal chat over lunch and it'll stay that way.

Suffice to say stuff is coming but it's just not in the Dec patch. So perhaps allay the pitchforks just a little.



What I CAN say though after talking to Chris is the Dec patch will be good. I've really, REALLY liked the last 2 patches with mobility on many mechs and new quirks etc etc. More of that is coming!!! Hell, yes I say.

This is why I've always raged against people trying to say 'Paul/Russ/Whoever at PGI hates me for my freedom and should be fired/beaten/stripped of legal citizenship for nerfing my favorite weapon/mech!'

The people involved (especially in gaming) tend to be pretty good people. Except at EA. Most the management at EA are (or at least were) pretty terrible people. I'm sure though that if you met Russ, Paul, Matt, Chris, et al they were cool people and passionate about their game. Most people in gaming could make more money and way, way less abuse in other fields but do this because they love it.

It's alright to get frustrated with PGI as a business and decisions they make. I certainly do. I bet a couple PGI employees you spoke to at Mechcon have gotten upset with PGI business decisions about game design before. However there's more involved in business decisions in game design than 'Does Player X really enjoy using small pulse lasers? Should we completely rework all the maps and 3 game modes to add in this one thing that maybe a few people will like?'

I'm really glad Mechcon happens. I wish it happened a different time of the year so I could go. Especially for smaller gaming companies it's a really good thing for even just a handful of (hopefully well spoken and influential-ish) players to get to meet the developers and communicate. Forums, Reddit, these are absolute **** methods of really communicating with people. Breeds misunderstanding and a sense of disconnection.

If you say awesome stuff is coming in this patch I'll trust your judgement and allow myself a bit of hope. I don't always agree with your opinion on stuff but you've played a couple of matches and have all the same reasons to be bitter, disaffected and skeptical that the rest of us whining forum ******* do. If you're pumped and excited I could spare a little anticipation for good things to come.

[Racerxintegra2k]

justcallme A S H, on 05 December 2018 - 09:16 PM, said:

Paul actually came to lunch with us today and even shouted us lunch (a few 228 guys, Tina, Hobo & myself). That was an amazing gesture and totally unexpected.

While the chat was basically off the record and I'll keep it that way (which was good as lots of stuff was just spitballing) - I did understand more of what he meant at the same time.

I think there is just a bit of a disconnect between what the community expected based on what he said and what he had in his mind. I said as much to him so he was aware if what I thought.

We (community) expected everything to be outlined again. Paul already kinda did that. I'm still basically a day away from getting home (sitting at LAX). I'll post what I can when I can. Don't expect some huge pile of info as again, it was just a informal chat over lunch and it'll stay that way.

Suffice to say stuff is coming but it's just not in the Dec patch. So perhaps allay the pitchforks just a little.



What I CAN say though after talking to Chris is the Dec patch will be good. I've really, REALLY liked the last 2 patches with mobility on many mechs and new quirks etc etc. More of that is coming!!! Hell, yes I say.

With all due respect to the current "community manager" Ash is actually doing that job right now.

[General Solo]

Nightbird, on 04 December 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

They did split the FP queue into solo versus group a while back. The solo queue had 0 drops in 6 hrs. How does that help retain players?

At the time their were many factions not like today with just Clan Vs IS
Its was Wolf/Falcon/Bears/Falcon/Jags/etc vs Davion/Marrick/Kutita/Russelhague/Liao/ etc

And each faction had a solo que, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thats a different solo que for each faction.

If this is true, then no wonder solo queues in FW failed as the solo playerbase was spread so thin.

7 solo queue for clan and 7 solo queue for IS, too many queues killed it.

This is all from memory
So if I'm wrong ..........nvm

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 06 December 2018 - 10:30 AM.

[Nightbird]

OZHomerOZ, on 06 December 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

At the time their were many factions not like today with just Clan Vs IS
Its was Wolf/Falcon/Bears/Falcon/etc vs Davion/Marrick/Kutita/Russelhague/ etc

And each faction had a solo que, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thats a different solo que for each faction.

If this is true, then no wonder solo queues in FW failed as the solo playerbase was spread so thin.

7 solo queue for clan and 7 solo queue for IS, too many queues killed it.

This is all from memory
So if I'm wrong ..........nvm

And I'm not against splitting again to solo and groups, but keep in mind it's not quick play, you know what side you'll get and can sync drop with your group as a bunch of solos.

[General Solo]

I did my tours of FW so I have some knowledge of it thou I am not a FW guy any more, due to lack of patience for waiting since I'm getting older and my times running out, I have no time for waiting in a queues.

My point is if FW solo was a sucess, then some of those solo players will spill over into group FW too and thus benifit from a succuessfull FW solo que.


Thou the previous implementation of FW solo was doomed to fail by design, DOA
7 solo buckets lol
So maybe the design was faulty not the solo FW idea.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 06 December 2018 - 10:24 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

thumbs up for mobility!

[Geewiz 27]

justcallme A S H, on 05 December 2018 - 09:16 PM, said:

Paul actually came to lunch with us today and even shouted us lunch (a few 228 guys, Tina, Hobo & myself). That was an amazing gesture and totally unexpected.

While the chat was basically off the record and I'll keep it that way (which was good as lots of stuff was just spitballing) - I did understand more of what he meant at the same time.

I think there is just a bit of a disconnect between what the community expected based on what he said and what he had in his mind. I said as much to him so he was aware if what I thought.

We (community) expected everything to be outlined again. Paul already kinda did that. I'm still basically a day away from getting home (sitting at LAX). I'll post what I can when I can. Don't expect some huge pile of info as again, it was just a informal chat over lunch and it'll stay that way.

Suffice to say stuff is coming but it's just not in the Dec patch. So perhaps allay the pitchforks just a little.



What I CAN say though after talking to Chris is the Dec patch will be good. I've really, REALLY liked the last 2 patches with mobility on many mechs and new quirks etc etc. More of that is coming!!! Hell, yes I say.

Sorry Ash but unless they put out some form of road map and F'ing FAST I think the damage is already done! I think a lot of people were hanging on by there finger tips in the vane hope of good announcements at Mechcon and we got nothing! I've seen no less then 4 threads on this topic this week and the overwhelming feeling well basically frustrated people that have really had enough. And these are I think a lot of loyal long term customers that are just done now.

Found another thread, that's 5 now with out counting heading towards 500 - 600 posts total of pissed of customers.

Edited by Geewiz 27, 06 December 2018 - 02:11 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Geewiz 27, on 06 December 2018 - 01:36 PM, said:

Sorry Ash but unless they put out some form of road map and F'ing FAST I think the damage is already done! I think a lot of people were hanging on by there finger tips in the vane hope of good announcements at Mechcon and we got nothing! I've seen no less then 4 threads on this topic this week and the overwhelming feeling well basically frustrated people that have really had enough. And these are I think a lot of loyal long term customers that are just done now.

Found another thread, that's 5 now with out counting heading towards 500 - 600 posts total of pissed of customers.

There is one that was posted an hour ago.

Gotta remember Mechcon is a huge undertaking. Takes a few days to 'cooldown' and work out what needs to be done. This there is now a very detailed FP map posted.

[Sjorpha]

justcallme A S H, on 06 December 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

There is one that was posted an hour ago.

Gotta remember Mechcon is a huge undertaking. Takes a few days to 'cooldown' and work out what needs to be done. This there is now a very detailed FP map posted.

They posted an official roadmap? Where is it? I can't find it, it's not on the homepage news feed where it should be, it's not in the FP forum as far as I can see, do you have a link?

Edited by Sjorpha, 06 December 2018 - 03:21 PM.

[Sigmar Sich]

https://mwomercs.com...t-mechcon-2018/
I think this is it.
Just about to read it. Ooooh, the anxiety.

P.S. Had to peek in twitter to fing the post.