16 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

I've decided that this weekend I'm going to bring the mechs that PGI has created into some battle scenarios, as well as to do maintenance and upkeep on them to find out how practical they actually would be.

In addition to them (and comparable already established canonical mechs), I will also test out implied creations such as the Loader King in comparison to similar mechs.

And if that's enjoyed I might do something similar for my own creations and those of other people if shared.

This said...

What would you compare the Corsair to?
Would you want to see how it does in the hands of a military company, or would you also be curious to see how it does in the hands of "pirates" too as is implied by the lore?

What kind of missions would you see it doing? What sort of opponents?

Same for the other two, the Sunspider and the...I can't remember its name but you know what I'm talking about.

[Karl Streiger]

Scenario? Well pirates only do low-danger jobs, mostly grab and run.

So the standard scenario would be to overwhelm the lightly armed defenders of a depot, before reinforcements arrive. unfortunately the Corsair doesn't do the "run" part that well.

So yes consider a raid on a ComStar HPG station, that is guardes by Pikes with infantry (including fieldguns) and maybe some Hovertanks (lostech)

The pirates have x rounds time before the reinforcement of LosTech ComStar Mechs arrive. For pirate mechs you have low damage retreat condition, when a mech takes internal damage to either torso or leg, got a activator hit, reactor hit or gyro hit it need to return to base immediately.

[Koniving]

Well if the reinforcements would arrive in a number of rounds (and each round is 10 seconds), those reinforcements must be really close by. By the time the Corsair got deployed, it'd already be too late. But I'll throw it on the list of why an assault class mech is impractical for a pirate group.

Potentially more practical ones might be raiding valuable resources, from mining operations to water shipments. Water is something that especially draws pirate attention according to multiple source books and especially in the Mechwarrior RPG and Dropships and Jumpships sourcebook due to the fact that many planets don't have it. In fact it is one of the biggest limiting factors in Inner Sphere expansion is the further out you go, the harder it is to get water.

As such places that occasionally receive or send shipments, but rare enough that any attack would go unanswered beyond local forces for weeks to months. We are deep periphery pirates after all.

I do imagine that no matter what there'd be boots on the ground field artillery, some vehicles and if it is any point of value one or more mechs.

(Also I've never heard of a pirate group that attacks alone, and as such the Corsair will be joined by faster moving vehicles and the like).

Edited by Koniving, 03 December 2018 - 09:18 AM.

[RAM]

We had Corsair, Sun Spider & Roughneck minis and record sheets for play over the weekend.

Sun Spider is a mean mech in table top, often able to take both of the others simultaneously. (Clan tech OP )

Congrats to the winners who won their mech. I hope to see them in future CGL tournaments!


RAM
ELH

[Karl Streiger]

Well and for the third time, I really hate this forum software.

Koniving, on 03 December 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

Well if the reinforcements would arrive in a number of rounds (and each round is 10 seconds), those reinforcements must be really close by. By the time the Corsair got deployed, it'd already be too late. But I'll throw it on the list of why an assault class mech is impractical for a pirate group.

Well, when the call for reinforcement is made and the enemy is already in shooting range, the defender screwed it epicly.
Of course defenders in BT are that stupid -> see the 12th Donegals on Ryde or the GDL during the "Skyes Second War of independence".
But I would expect that even a civilian aerospace controll tower has the tools and means to know where your dropship will go down. Of course the dropship could alter the course in the atmosphere but I don't think that pirates have the fuel (water is expensive in the Periphery - don't ask me why) to do this.

You will have only a couple of targets for a raid - so you can do an educated guess where and when the pirates hit a depot.
As clever and responsible defender I will have my best units in a fast response team ready available that can reach several key locations in a short time.

So a pirate raid is usually the good old game of cops and robbers - the bad guys were the good guys are and how long it will take for them to reach the site of the raid. When the time is to short or the local defenders are to heavy armed the raid will not happen.

Also the round of 10 second is only a abstraction. the fire fight that happens in 1 turn is usually enough to fill a minute of "real time combat - unless you play MWO

(you really should play the game with MWDA style of rounds - you move your unit, you shoot with that unit and you go into close combat with that unit in one turn. after that the enemy do the same thing with one of his unit and so on)

[Koniving]

Unless its an option in Megamek, I don't really have the ability to do it MWDA style. I do however enjoy real time movement with controlled initiative. The higher the initiative, the later in the order they are forced to move, and each side must move their pieces at the same time. (Something needs to be put into place to help control this flow a bit so the other side can't see your move if you moved yours first). Currently I've found one sly thing a player could do is very rapidly move his pieces to hide movements and distract the other player. But this doesn't work against bots. Still moving with the expectation to shoot somebody only for them to dart away at the same time can make things difficult.

I'll have to read that Corsair story because quite frankly I'm not seeing how this mech is intended to be used. It really is no good for raid missions. Terrorizing, sure. Defense, yep its good at that. Putting up a front (aka "I'm the boss, and you will do what I want") yeah its good for that too. It isn't a big enough threat, and a single Behemoth tank (armor variant) is sufficient to pretty much ruin its day with twin LBX-10 and 4 LRM-5s. Corsair, built as described, lasted 30 seconds after engaging a single 100 ton tank. Even against light resistance, with the goal to hit something and run...this thing is screwed.

Are there other things we can try? I don't want to outright say this mech is worthless in the BT universe when I'm done with the trials for it, but so far even the Awesome does better.

[NimoStar]

I would say an Awesome would not be available to Periphery pirates.

This 'mech was never mass-produced. It was cobbled together, probably from parts that were going to be on the trash.

I take it as "the biggest battlemech a non-state-sponsored actor can have" - It doesn't have to outperform actual defenders, it just wreacks havic on lightly defended garrisons with valuable goods, of which there probably are many since most 'mechs are mobile fighting units and not on garrison duty.

It pounds light and medium vehicles, and any damage it sustained during the mission is presumably cheap to repair.

Bear in mind yes, it is slow. But it doesn't have to walk long distances, it can just be dropped and then lifted at the mission site. its speed becomes mostly irrelevant that way. It is a brute designed to open sealed vaults with force, not to evade enemy fire; which is how most bank robberies are done. The escape vehicle is the dropship, the Corsair is just the intimidating guy with an assault rifle that yells HANDS IN THE AIR THIS IS A ROBBERY.

[Koniving]

I'm thinking about the only way the big guy could work is getting dropped right there (but why not just use the dropship as a weapon?) Wreck some havoc and pick up some 10 to 30 minutes later.

Side note thoroughly reading the Corsair entry...
They aren't all supposed to be 95 tons. Perhaps a version or two based on the hero mech as the hero will be Canon as would a copy cat or two (maybe). This leaves the rest of the definition. "Corsair is a Periphery term for frankenmechs cobbled together". That there is no set weight or size as it covers a number of different hodgepodge creations.

As such rather than so many variants, it's likely some are a wide number of different weights and compositions. Which would make far more sense.

[NimoStar]

Yes, it does say that and that's partially why I said the 95 tons was probably the biggest and as such the "iconic" one.

As for why not using dropships directly to do the deal... well, dropships are extremely expensive and I supposse they also carry essential personell and supplies. I don't think they would be risked as assaulters by pirates; they probably can't even get the components to repair them if they get damaged, plus if they can't lift off later, they will be stranded in enemy territory and jailed or executed.

I imagine the 95 ton "variant" of the Corsair is just used from and to the Dropship landed on the nearest undefended/less defended spot from the objective.

[Koniving]

Another thing I've noticed is that if the loadouts become canonical.... This thing is massively over supplied with ammunition with no safeguards. This is an explosion waiting to happen. The 5R has 7 tons of ammunition. 4 of them for the AC/10. That's 40 reloads. The LRM ammo only being a single ton doesn't make much sense given the weight of the launcher itself. And 2 tons for the SRM.

Others are a bit rediculous too. Definitely built for mwo. Least they aren't overcooled.

[MechaBattler]

I honestly have no idea what to compare to the Corsair to. 95 ton pirate mech kinda makes no sense to me. They should have made it a heavy or a medium. Given the costs of assaults in that weight range. it's crazy to think they could scrap together that much stuff for it. Although someone said that in the Sarna entry for it, it has variants that are smaller in size. Too bad they didn't think that would be interesting to sell as a mechpack. That definitely would have made the Corsair stand out a lot if it had variants of differing weights.

But since I'm a scrub when it comes to BT lore and I've only read a few of the books. I can't really speak to what compares with the Corsair.

[Koniving]

MechaBattler, on 11 December 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

I honestly have no idea what to compare to the Corsair to. 95 ton pirate mech kinda makes no sense to me. They should have made it a heavy or a medium. Given the costs of assaults in that weight range. it's crazy to think they could scrap together that much stuff for it. Although someone said that in the Sarna entry for it, it has variants that are smaller in size. Too bad they didn't think that would be interesting to sell as a mechpack. That definitely would have made the Corsair stand out a lot if it had variants of differing weights.

But since I'm a scrub when it comes to BT lore and I've only read a few of the books. I can't really speak to what compares with the Corsair.

Specifically the entry given states:
"While Corsair is supposedly a generic Periphery term referring to heavy and assault class FrankenMechs cobbled together out of desperation as the Succession War era dragged on, with no specific weight or base chassis, the most successful of these are ninety-five ton brutes modeled on the "Ravager, an individual Hero 'Mech equipped with Star League era weapons that was piloted by Jake Kalmar of the Oberon Confederation until 3037"

Comically, whoever the hell wrote this also included this bit:
"This particular series of 95-ton BattleMechs is identified by the COR- alphanumerical code as if it were a regular production model. This is odd insofar as no proper production was known to take place in the Oberon Confederation or elsewhere before it was overrun by the Clans in 3049, nor does a standardized refit program seem plausible, as there are only relatively few 95 ton designs to begin with and they are invariably considered extremely rare in the periphery."

Which is hilarious because, lets face it, I called it out on this long before knowing there was a Sarna entry made at the same time, so if a Catalyst employee did make this they thought PGI's naming convention was ****, too! Or at least whomever did write this. Whomever it was would be great at Cinema Sins.
---------
This said..
Note that it does state heavy and assault frankenmechs, so you've got a range of 60 to 100 tons so to speak. Not necessarily all are those created by pirates. Periphery states, periphery mercs, etc. are also included in the generic definition.

The Ravager is supposedly made of at least the Stalker and the Thunderbolt. Though Alex also said he used part of the King Crab as well as the Stalker for the legs. I'm certain we can see parts of other machines in use there. But, beyond that the Corsair is a blanket class for player created frankenmechs. (FASA and all sequential companies left room like this across a lot of their machines in order to allow players to fill in the blanks on their own).

So beyond the one Ravager and the second hero mech PGI is making (since Catalyst is making all "Hero" mechs canonical), I doubt anything else will go beyond apocryphal. But I would put money on Catalyst eventually adding some additional ideas into that category such as 70 ton machines made of parts of heavies and assaults.

What would you cobble together, assuming you could get your hands on the parts?
In addition to running the Corsairs, Brigands (for comparison), other PGI made mechs.. would you want to see how difficult it is to frankenmech in terms of doing it in BT's rules?

Side note: Actually I think the Corsair page has been changed/updated, it used to have the Apocryphal tag on it but now only has the canoncity tidbit without the huge apocryphal tag. Secondly I remember there being something about the the design being copied and produced in 3063. But now its "unknown."

[Koniving]

For fun: I've added Charger and Hatamotochi into the list of the same trials that the Corsair are being put through. I work Friday night and Saturday night, but as soon as I can I will start posting results. And once I have a complete idea of all the challenges I'll put them through, I'll have that listed too.

[Koniving]

Alright, so BIG update.

First up; anyone that gets bored and wants to see an interpretation of the Battletech tabletop heat system (with almost all the expanded rules) interpreted as a deep yet simple heat system, here ya go. Its not my best rendition of it, but it is perhaps the most organized version (even if it accidentally delves into some variations of itself).

------------

For the goal of this thread, this update is on the challenges thus far. This will be done for all or at least most mechs of choice.
Some of these are already in progress, some have yet to start.

Garrison -- defense of an outpost from attack by a small force of IS mercenaries (and given the year, against the Clans as well, so this one's getting 6 versions per mech until I get sick of it).
Raid -- Mech plus a small force attacks a lightly protected establishment in order to capture a portable objective and leave before reinforcements arrive. (This scenario will be played by me against an AI.)
Survival -- The tested mech is put through wave after wave of mixed-class enemies delivered by dropship with a cap of 20 waves, how long can it last? Continues until the pilot is dead, regardless of the state of the machine.
Solaris -- One or more challenges from Solaris VII in the original book of maps, complete with all traps, objectives, etc. there-listed. (You're welcome to choose maps if you happen to have access to it either in your home or a free PDF / PDF sample somewhere). Note since tests can get repetitive, I think this is where I'll put the variety in.
Corsair fluff -- The Corsair hero mech got its little fluff in which the Corsair fought against a rival. Did it play out the way it really should have? Would it have gone better with another mech? We'll find out.
Just Maintenance -- This run would be a year of maintenance in two variations; a year without use and a year with one sortie every 3 months, each with a reset before trying the next, done in 3 variations: Pirate resources, popular merc resources, and Periphery kingdom (I welcome a suggestion on preference whether Taurian Concordant, Saint Ives, Marian Hegemony, etc. Also welcome the kingdom from HBS' Battletech if someone can get me more of the details of what resources they had before getting big support.)
We have Mechs Down at Nav Gamma -- The opening scenario of Mechwarrior 2 with our test mech as "Alpha Assault." For fun, also running this as the actual Alpha Assault with a separate Clan pilot to see how it should have turned out. (Summoner AI will gravitate to attack Bravo Cadet, Testmech AI will seek to protect Bravo Cadet. Bravo Cadet will be in the condition depicted in the cinematic at start.)
Jag 12, Jag 12 -- KODIAK! Test mech replaces Jag 12 in Mechwarrior 2's Ghost Bear Legacy opening. Complete with death from above. (Kodiak played by me.)
Command, this is Hardcase, target's coming into visual now: MechCommander intro, but the Jag MadCat is replaced with the Testmech. (Testmech's OpFor played by me.)
But can it handle a King Crab? -- Just like it sounds.
But can it Dire the Wolf? -- Just like it sounds.
Is it Awesome? -- Can it handle the Awesome 8Q?
Hunchpacked -- Can it deal with three Hunchbacks and a Commando?
Trial Centurions -- Can it handle these four trial Centurions from MWO? Because the custom mechs at the time in MWO couldn't.
Suddenly Axman! -- Can it handle the might of an Axman at ridiculously close range? (Spoiler: so far this is absolutely brutal...)
Can it Battletechnology? -- Picking three separate scenarios from the BattleTechnology series and running each with the pilot specialty most fitting for each mech being tested.
Triple A! -- Can it handle airstrikes / fight back?
Mechwarrior 3050 -- A level from Mechwarrior 3050 (Snes) ("Battletech" Sega) will be recreated, complete with the objectives. (This scenario will be played by a human against AI).
Can it tame the Behemoth? -- 3 copies of Test mech with the three pilots are pit simultaneously against the same 100 ton Behemoth IS tank that took out a 100 ton assault and seven 50 ton mediums while completely immobile...except this tank isn't starting that way.

Rules:
For the challenges, there are three pilots.

• One that is good at piloting but not so good with guns
  
• One that is exceptional with guns but is a clumsy pilot.
  
• And one that's simply a veteran (on par with an average to green Clan pilot).

With few exceptions, all three pilots will get their own go in the exact same scenario to give us a minimum of three results.

Any scenarios where something gets stuck will be noted, but the test will be re-run.

Each scenario will be completely AI controlled, and each test mech pilot's AI will reflect the personality of the pilot. Since Ota has been mentioned already as one of the pilots, he is brash and impulsive as seen here. The only exceptions are noted beside them on the list.

Certain scenarios will have help from other units as would be expected (you wouldn't be a pirate king raiding a village by yourself, would you?) All others will be as close to solo as possible except when required by the scenario.

Each scenario will include the total cost and time of repairs after the fact.

With the exception of "Just Maintenance," all repairs will be done with a God-modded "Scotty the Engineer," because he's just a miracle worker. As such any actual practical repair of these machines would be far worse than what you'll see.

The year used will be 3063. Some of the comparison mechs are just barely outside of this timeline.
-------------

Current mech list until I'm done with the Corsairs.
Banshee
Cerberus
Albatross
Hauptmann
Nagita
Nightstar
Sagitarre
Sirocco QUAD!!! O_O!

Note for right now, I'm just comparing how it handles against other 95 tonners.
Will later compare to what pirates actually used (in fewer more focused scenarios) and then try out other PGI created mechs.

[Koniving]

So a short update: with a 5 day weekend from work I've gotten into the knitty gritty.

Here's what the Corsair hero Ravager currently looks like if we set the year to 3063.
Note: I actually did not choose the quirks it currently has, but they seem to fit perfectly. (Due to a bug in the version of Meklab I'm using, I had to start with a 95 tonner that existed and edit it rather than create one from scratch because the cockpit kept giving me "Error". Anyway... I used a Banshee wiped out the original equipment and redid it as PGI gave the specs. For armor we have no idea how PGI/MWO would distribute it so I used "Autoallocate" instead and did nothing to manually tweak it.

-----------

Corsair "Ravager" Ravager Base Tech Level: Standard (IS)
Era
Standard
3063+
Tech Rating: E/X-X-E-X
Weight: 95 tons
BV: 2,125
Cost: 19,917,008 C-bills (to put it into perspective 1 Cbill in 3062 = $7.20 USD in 2016: In US dollars this mech costs $143,402,457.60)
Source: 3063
Movement: 3/5 (this would be 56.8 kph... the next level down.)
Engine: 285 XL
Double Heat Sinks: 15 [30]
Gyro: Standard Gyro
Internal: 145
Armor: 289/293 (18 tons)

Weapons
Loc
Heat

Gauss Rifle
LA
1

Ultra AC/5
RT
1

Large Pulse Laser
CT
10

Large Laser
LT
8
RA
8

Medium Laser
HD
3
RA
3
LA
3

Ammo
Loc
Uses

Gauss Rifle Ammo [IS]
LT
8
LT
8

Ultra AC/5 Ammo
RT
20

Ultra AC/5 Ammo
RL
20
(Note: This location makes little sense, but meh)

Quirks
Rugged (1 Point)
Bad Reputation (Inner Sphere)

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What do you think?
Note the cost would be if it just rolled off the production line in 3063 in an omniscient perspective, without factoring any local factors.
Rugged might actually give it a bit of an advantage, though truth be told I would have come up with some other quirks for it.

Edited by Koniving, 21 December 2018 - 11:54 PM.

[Riller Nath]

There are other cannon frankenmechs, check out the schurer Gustav. Some people also consider the cataphract to be frankenmech as Liao built the design from parts of other mechs.

[Koniving]

Indeed. There's also the Wolfmech (though canon for 22+ years, it became uncanon by someone afraid that other aspects of the magazine, which has some April Fool's jokes (the Alliance Mech), outdated first (trial) iterations of rules before they became official (Battlevalue came from Combat Efficiency Factor, Extreme range came from BattleTechnology magazine and with some tweaks became official advanced rules, etc..). I think most of all, there was an aspect that Catalyst didn't want to risk... The requests to republish and sell these... which isn't really possible and beyond that they were plastered with what was at the time legally sensitive artwork.

Anyway...

A plethora of events and sales put my project on hold, though for anyone longing for a taste, one was given in the "How lore accurate is MWO" thread, in which I gave a Piranha versus a Corsair.

We can surmise that a Corsair against an average young pilot... is gonna win almost every time unless the Corsair picks up the Piranha.... that was the only time it lost against that pilot out of 54 tries.
Against an older, patient pilot that doesn't take unnecessary risks and has no issue with sneaking up and ambushing... the Corsair Ravager has less than a 50/50 chance of winning in a one on one fight (failing 27 times out of 50).

But, there's a lot of data. There's summarizing, there's highlights, etc. to be shared and that takes time to write. There's also more data to collect. Allowing 50 to 100 instances per thing, per pilot may be relatively quick compared to human-controlled tabletop/megamek, but while matches last around a few dozen seconds to several minutes in real life, combing through the data with a fine tooth comb to find the juicy bits to share takes time.

Anyone can assume they shot each other and X won while Y lost, but truly great are the moments that are hidden in all the data..

One such moment I've shared already in less detail is when the Corsair Ravager picked up the Piranha... and in a moment of glory, the otherwise young, brash and stupid pilot Danica in the Piranha hit a heroic moment that got her the only win she would ever get in her short virtual existence. Picked up (grappled) by the one-armed Corsair heromech 'Ravager', the Piranha's head is the grab-point, and the pilot is critically wounded but somehow still conscious. Danica decides that unlike every other time where she dies and it all gets reset, this one time, this last chance that Danica has... will be worth something. Down to 6 heatsinks. Hefty engine damage despite still having all three torsos, one arm's hand, elbow and laser all three destroyed after being hit earlier with a tree. The other laser destroyed around the same time, due to the same hit and a 30 meter skid from the impact (must've been a strong tree, though it did break). But that was before, and now, head trapped in the grip of a 95 ton freak of salvage, there was only one thing that the Piranha had left. 1/4th of a ton of ammunition, 4 MGs that have survived the abuse so far, and they were let loose to their full extent. A torrent of fire, totaling between 3 and 10 damage per MG (burst fire + direct blow rules) with 2 of the 4 jamming and 1 of the other two critically exploding....

The Ravager went down. The random pilot given to the Ravager, Annabelle, perished. This was the only time out of the 104 tests in which the Corsair pilot was actually killed in action. Due to the Ravager's death during the weapons fire phase, when the melee phase came, a pilot roll had to be done for being dropped from a grapple-hold that left the Piranha airborne. A knee and foot actuator broke and the Piranha was on the ground. Danica was already unconscious due to the MG exploding from a critical jam-and-overheat. The Piranha shut down. It would never be turned on again. Danica died in the fall. The wreckage of this brutal fight will never to be found or salvaged. To many this would be a draw, but for Danica... this is the closest to victory that he or she would ever get.

There are many tales to be told, and I hope to share them soon.
Thank you everyone that has been waiting for me to follow up, for your continued patience.
(Edit: Minor corrections after re-reading.)

Edited by Koniving, 23 January 2019 - 11:38 AM.