59 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 06 December 2018 - 06:04 PM, said:

^Oh god, the formatting. Paste as plain text is your friend.

Ninja'd you.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 December 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

Ninja'd you.

I made my post before you cleaned it up. You can't hide from me!

[Y E O N N E]

Also, there was no pasting, that was just Edge having a stroke.

FupDup, on 06 December 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

I made my post before you cleaned it up. You can't hide from me!

Prove it! Time stamp is 9:05 for both!

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 December 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

Prove it! Time stamp is 9:05 for both!

That's the time stamp for my latest edit, but the initial post got in just one minute earlier (look at the first line "Posted Today, etc").

Edited by FupDup, 06 December 2018 - 06:08 PM.

[Sable Dove]

Windscape, on 05 December 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

Single guass builds are a rarity, only useful on mechs like the Ghille, but there’s no real way to fix that issue imo without making dual guass too strong.

Maximum Gauss rifle charge from 2 to 1. Then buff away.

[Dimento Graven]

Sable Dove, on 06 December 2018 - 07:00 PM, said:

Maximum Gauss rifle charge from 2 to 1. Then buff away.

Then you can put the same sort of firing limitations on every other weapon system in the game too then, because it's absolute silliness AT THIS STAGE OF THE GAME to deny the gauss the ability to fire more than 2 at a time (3 gauss firing is only a 45 point alpha, and 4 is a 60 point alpha). Considering we have plenty of other builds that pumping out 60+, 70+, 100+ alphas that regularly one shot opposing targets, and the sacrifices on the 'mechs (well, at least IS 'mechs) required to carry 4 gauss it seems overly strict.

Sure a Direwolf can be configured to carry 4 gauss, but it's a slow 'mech, you have to sacrifice things, mostly armor and ammo to do it, and in so doing you compromise staying power and survivability. While it's not quite a "glass cannon" for an assault level 'mech, yeah, it's damned close, over and above the fact that there are so many other DWF builds with the same if not higher alphas, that maintain much higher levels of armor... But the peeps who insist on standing still out in the open, or moving only in straight predictable lines gonna hate on the gauss because a potato has just GOT to potato...

[Y E O N N E]

A KDK-3 able to fire 4x Gauss in one shot is still more terrifying than the strongest Gauss-vomit boat; one of them will kill many targets outright in one hit, the other will always spread some damage around. One is limited by heat, the other can fire as long as it has ammo.

[Dimento Graven]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 December 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

A KDK-3 able to fire 4x Gauss in one shot is still more terrifying than the strongest Gauss-vomit boat; one of them will kill many targets outright in one hit, the other will always spread some damage around. One is limited by heat, the other can fire as long as it has ammo.

You still end up creating an assault 'mech that's EXTREMELY delicate, as evidenced by what is required to have a quad gauss DWF. It's ok as long as no one shoots at it, and as long as it has ammo.

[Sable Dove]

Dimento Graven, on 06 December 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

Then you can put the same sort of firing limitations on every other weapon system in the game too then, because it's absolute silliness AT THIS STAGE OF THE GAME to deny the gauss the ability to fire more than 2 at a time (3 gauss firing is only a 45 point alpha, and 4 is a 60 point alpha). Considering we have plenty of other builds that pumping out 60+, 70+, 100+ alphas that regularly one shot opposing targets, and the sacrifices on the 'mechs (well, at least IS 'mechs) required to carry 4 gauss it seems overly strict.

Most of those builds use lasers or missiles, spreading the damage. PPCs' ghost heat limit is 20 damage (30 for HPPC, but HPPCs are far more difficult to work with than Gauss are). 30 damage to a single component is a bit much for a long-range weapon that is also the easiest-to-hit-with projectile weapon in the game, even ignoring that the faster the projectile, the more reliable the hit-registration is. To be honest, one of MWO's biggest problem is the obsession with having all of one's weapons in one weapon group. The biggest reason laser vomit is so powerful is that the heat capacity is ridiculously high, allowing them to essentially fire one mega-weapon instead of the 6-10 weapons that they actually have.

People struggle to manage more than one weapon type, and PGI seems to enjoy it too. It's a shame because it kills more interesting builds; the best loadouts are generally laser boats, or SRM boats, or LRM boats, or dakka boats. The only reason to vary things is hardpoint limits and arbitrary ghost heat limits.

[Dimento Graven]

Sable Dove, on 06 December 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Most of those builds use lasers or missiles, spreading the damage. PPCs' ghost heat limit is 20 damage (30 for HPPC, but HPPCs are far more difficult to work with than Gauss are).

Yes but you can build dual PPC/AC/Laser builds that do so much more damage, and with the heat changes can do so much more reliably and quickly than a walking glassing cannon a quad gauss would be. As far as the spread damage of lasers or missiles, again, if you're in a quad guass anything [caps for emphasis, not shouting] YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY SACRIFICED AN F TON OF ARMOR TO DO IT. So those huge alpha missile/laser/ballistic builds will still probably disable one or two of the quad gauss carrier's weapons (especially for clans where as soon as your armor opens up, you have a 100% chance of the next words you hear are "Weapon Explosion Detected").

Really in the case of quad gauss carriers it's self balancing for all but the most extremely good pilots, and/or narrow situations.

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... the more reliable the hit-registration is.

LOL, omfg... You're joking right? Ballistics hit registration has been the longest existing issue in this game since closed beta.

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To be honest, one of MWO's biggest problem is the obsession with having all of one's weapons in one weapon group. The biggest reason laser vomit is so powerful is that the heat capacity is ridiculously high, allowing them to essentially fire one mega-weapon instead of the 6-10 weapons that they actually have.

It is as the game was designed. Allow big ugly weapon groups, and allow everyone to fire them up to 99.999999999999999999 percent hit capacity with no risk.

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People struggle to manage more than one weapon type, and PGI seems to enjoy it too. It's a shame because it kills more interesting builds; the best loadouts are generally laser boats, or SRM boats, or LRM boats, or dakka boats. The only reason to vary things is hardpoint limits and arbitrary ghost heat limits.

That leads me to re-opening the discussion on why the F PGI is to chicken S to implement a heat affects table like damned near every other iteration of this game has. Make heat management something other than "how much alpha can I get and how close to shut down can I get in one shot".

[Y E O N N E]

Dimento Graven, on 06 December 2018 - 08:33 PM, said:

You still end up creating an assault 'mech that's EXTREMELY delicate, as evidenced by what is required to have a quad gauss DWF. It's ok as long as no one shoots at it, and as long as it has ammo.

The quad-Gauss DWF had to expose its entire face to fire, and was a meme. The KDK does not have this limitation, and even restricted to 2 was strong enough to have a presence on the world stage.

I'm not saying it would be unkillable or whatever, but the last thing this game needs is more ways to paralyze movement around the map via hyper-dangerous, long-range weapons. If the crits stack right, a quad-Gauss KDK-3 able to fire all of them at once is going to be capable of one-shotting IS XL-equipped 45-tonners, from the front, at 726+ meters. We do not need that.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 06 December 2018 - 08:56 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 December 2018 - 08:55 PM, said:

The quad-Gauss DWF had to expose its entire face to fire, and was a meme. The KDK does not have this limitation, and even restricted to 2 was strong enough to have a presence on the world stage.

I'm not saying it would be unkillable or whatever, but the last thing this game needs is more ways to paralyze movement around the map via hyper-dangerous, long-range weapons. If the crits stack right, a quad-Gauss KDK-3 able to fire all of them at once is going to be capable of one-shotting IS XL-equipped 45-tonners, from the front, at 726+ meters. We do not need that.

The KDK would still require exposing at least half its torso bring all 4 gauss to bare on a target, won't be invisible, and considering the sacrifices in speed from being required to load in a STANDARD engine, you're not going to have much ammo, or you're not going to have much armor. Again on the speed, you're NOT going to be "dancing" in and out of cover to do this either...

I find it curious you object to 'mechs being one shot at 726 meters (a stretch given the state of hit registration in this game, either the light is potato'ing by standing still, or moving in a predictable straight line), but must be fine with the massive SRM/streak/laser vomit builds that regularly do the same at closer distances.

The only thing different is the range at which the potato is shot...

If we just can't have IS XL carrying lights/mediums being one shot from the front, then there's an F ton of more balance work to be done.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 06 December 2018 - 09:10 PM.

[Armored Yokai]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 December 2018 - 08:55 PM, said:

The KDK does not have this limitation, and even restricted to 2 was strong enough to have a presence on the world stage.

The Kodiak Is slightly more than the Direcow but it will easily be demolished by Annihilators and AC2 direcow
Quad gauss is technically a meme at this point because you can't fire more than 2. Just grab some lbx boats and the gauss will be a joke.

[Dimento Graven]

Armored Yokai, on 06 December 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

The Kodiak Is slightly more than the Direcow but it will easily be demolished by Annihilators and AC2 direcow
Quad gauss is technically a meme at this point because you can't fire more than 2. Just grab some lbx boats and the gauss will be a joke.

Yep, my AC/2 boating KGC regularly tears through all varieties of KDK and DWF. Large alpha/small alpha... It doesn't matter, if I can see any piece of you, that piece is mine in short order...

[Kubernetes]

A quad gauss Kodiak that could fire 4x in one shot would be the best mech in the game. 60 PPFLD out to 700m... yeah, okay.

The LGR definitely need a damage bump. I see the arguments about fast cooldown, but do you really want to use gauss as a dps weapon? You like to stare down people with little 16 dmg hits? Sounds like a fast way to die.

[Dimento Graven]

Kubernetes, on 07 December 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

A quad gauss Kodiak that could fire 4x in one shot would be the best mech in the game. 60 PPFLD out to 700m... yeah, okay.

I disagree, as again, it'll have to be slow, or lightly armored (probably both) to have enough ammo to make it through a match, and the lack of speed and armor will make it a glass cannon.

Certainly not as fragile as the 3 gauss Cataphract was, but on the order of, for sure.

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The LGR definitely need a damage bump. I see the arguments about fast cooldown, but do you really want to use gauss as a dps weapon? You like to stare down people with little 16 dmg hits? Sounds like a fast way to die.

I say remove the 2 weapon restrict on the LGR and bump up the damage by 1 and see what happens...

[Khobai]

Kubernetes, on 07 December 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

A quad gauss Kodiak that could fire 4x in one shot would be the best mech in the game. 60 PPFLD out to 700m... yeah, okay.

The LGR definitely need a damage bump. I see the arguments about fast cooldown, but do you really want to use gauss as a dps weapon? You like to stare down people with little 16 dmg hits? Sounds like a fast way to die.

LGR should just do 10 damage with a +25% longer cooldown to compensate for the added damage

[Y E O N N E]

Dimento Graven, on 06 December 2018 - 09:10 PM, said:

The KDK would still require exposing at least half its torso bring all 4 gauss to bare on a target, won't be invisible, and considering the sacrifices in speed from being required to load in a STANDARD engine, you're not going to have much ammo, or you're not going to have much armor. Again on the speed, you're NOT going to be "dancing" in and out of cover to do this either...

That half is much smaller than the full-face of the DWF, don't try to twist that as something insignificant. And what convergence issues? Anything stands still for a split second, he's eating 60 at once. Easy.

The quad-gauss KDK also runs as fast as dual HGauss 'Mechs on the IS side. Speaking of which, HGauss is already incredibly strong within its bracket, the only thing keeping it from being OP even with all its other drawbacks is the fact that it is so short-ranged. A quad-gauss KDK that can fire all four at once is effectively dual HGauss+10, with three times the reach.

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I find it curious you object to 'mechs being one shot at 726 meters (a stretch given the state of hit registration in this game, either the light is potato'ing by standing still, or moving in a predictable straight line), but must be fine with the massive SRM/streak/laser vomit builds that regularly do the same at closer distances.

The only thing different is the range at which the potato is shot...

That is not the only difference.

The SRM payload type has to either get through the enemy team or make time-consuming flanks to engage a target, and cannot control lanes of motion. Streaks? Lol.

Lasers are strong, and I rail against more buffs to ERLLs all the time because they have historically been quite potent at locking down maps, too (see also: MWOWC17), but the non-instant nature of the damage application and the fact that it has heat to manage offers more tactical choices for the target.

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If we just can't have IS XL carrying lights/mediums being one shot from the front, then there's an F ton of more balance work to be done.

One shot with zero chance of mitigation is not the same as potential one shot.

[Dimento Graven]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 December 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

That half is much smaller than the full-face of the DWF, don't try to twist that as something insignificant. And what convergence issues? Anything stands still for a split second, he's eating 60 at once. Easy.

Just like any other quad gauss. The face time is STILL required, and at those sizes, with the sacrifices needed to make it even halfway viable - glass cannon, period.

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The quad-gauss KDK also runs as fast as dual HGauss 'Mechs on the IS side.

Only if he's giving up armor and ammo. The KDK STILL has a tonnage limit, best I could do with any assurance of surviving even minimal frontal contact with the enemy was about 55kph.

But what you're pointing out is an imbalance between Clan tech vs IS tech. That's a whole other discussion.

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Speaking of which, HGauss is already incredibly strong within its bracket, the only thing keeping it from being OP even with all its other drawbacks is the fact that it is so short-ranged. A quad-gauss KDK that can fire all four at once is effectively dual HGauss+10, with three times the reach.

Yep, along with all the other drawbacks I keep pointing out. Besides that, again, there's plenty of other builds very common that have higher damage and definitely higher DPS than any quad gauss 'mech AND WOULD STILL have as much if not more armor and a crap ton more speed.

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That is not the only difference.

The SRM payload type has to either get through the enemy team or make time-consuming flanks to engage a target, and cannot control lanes of motion. Streaks? Lol.

Lasers are strong, and I rail against more buffs to ERLLs all the time because they have historically been quite potent at locking down maps, too (see also: MWOWC17), but the non-instant nature of the damage application and the fact that it has heat to manage offers more tactical choices for the target.

If it was so pathetically bad, or so pathetically hard, we wouldn't see people doing it, but we do, darn near every drop there's 2 or 3 SRM boats, and probably 1 or 2 ATM boats, and then the ballistics and laser boats, and darn near every match we have lights and mediums being one shotted.

There's no mitigation other than RNGeesus and whatever the heck the netcode and HSR decides to let happen. With a quad gauss build you eliminate most of the RNGeesus factor and it becomes more dependent on you and your target's skill.

Yes, hitting stationary targets, or targets moving in predictable straight lines is easier than most other ballistics (not LRMs or lasers though, I mean c'mon... mind numbingly easy those weapons...), but once a target starts moving at speed, from cover to cover, changing directions then we start running into limitations of PGI's implementation of convergence and hit registration and leading targets can become more of a crap shoot when attempting to take down a well piloted 'mech.

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One shot with zero chance of mitigation is not the same as potential one shot.

One shot is one shot, let's not split hairs about this...

Either we can't have any one shotting at all, or we face up to the fact that maybe some people don't play this game as skillfully as they would like all the time, and "it is what it is..."

Edited by Dimento Graven, 08 December 2018 - 09:10 AM.

[Kubernetes]

"Besides that, again, there's plenty of other builds very common that have higher damage and definitely higher DPS than any quad gauss 'mech AND WOULD STILL have as much if not more armor and a crap ton more speed."

And which of those mechs carry 60 pts of PPFLD? 60 PPFLD >>> 60 pts laser vomit. It's not even close to the same thing. 60 dmg with gauss velocity/range is insane and would dominate this game. Mediums would die in two shots, heavies and assaults in three.

Edited by Kubernetes, 08 December 2018 - 11:05 AM.