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I Know The Lrm Hate, But Irl...


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#1 razenWing

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 07:05 PM

Essentially missiles are the most devastating weapons of either ballistics or lasers.

You can hardly recreate the total energy from chemical projectile from kinetic projectile. In fact, you can modify missiles so that they can do both. (Which a lot of modern weapons are)

(Also, most missiles travel way faster than standard artillery rounds. There is that railgun, but come on... that railgun is like gajillion tons and not very mobile... and shoot in either a predictable line or arc.)

In MW3, it wasn't some crazy pinpoint laser that killed the Summoner. It was the legged Vulture with a final lock-on that finished the Summoner with LRM-20s. Missiles are hard to use, but it's especially effective in SP because AI are stupid and just walk straight into you. But the point is there, again ideal situational targets, they HURT by both incredibly large damage AND knockdown.

And if you look at more evidence lore wise, there is a reason why almost every single mech wants to have that random LRM 5 launcher. Because quite simply, missiles are just supposed to be better.

Now, I understand that is REALLY REALLY hard to replicate in video game without it just being the ultimate weapon. IMO the issue started when PGI decide to balance effectiveness of all weapons to be roughly the same. Which, even as of now, it's not really balanced, so... (though the skew is definitely dependent on who you talk to)

But the way I see it, is that we don't go that route of balance. Just straight up make LRM the best.

*dodge audience projectile

Now, I know what most of you are thinking. LRM good? Flame bait! But hear me out. Despite being vastly powerful, there should be a lot of good countermeasures AND increase the difficulty of LRM use.

That would be the balance. Basically, we create a weapon of extremes. It's either going to work out awesome for you, or not at all.

For one, in MW3, it took skill to shoot and hit someone with it cause, you can DODGE incoming LRMS with no countermeasures. So you can spam missiles and might hit absolutely nothing if the other pilot is an ace. I think that should be the starting point.

The missiles I hate the most is the MW4 LRMs. Your missiles act like spinning bees for absolutely no reason.

I have some ideas...

Direct fire - low arc fire, fastest way to hit enemy
Indirect fire - can be fired with mere red targeting, but missiles will only travel to last recorded positions
Direct support fire - if friends have NARC or direct site, see Direct fire.

However, direct fire can be changed to indirect fire if lock is lost during flight path.

TC Support Unlock
Direct Support Fire - will create stronger arc to move over obstacles.
Indirect fire - can fire on map coordinates directly like artilleries. However, you don't just click and fire, there's a 5 seconds flight path calculation based on every new location click. (thus if you click click click click click on 20 new locations, none of your missiles will fire)

Missiles deal 2x more damage as they do now.

Ton for Ton, LRM damage will be by far, the best weapon in the game. Even considering the missile spread, the 2x modifiers will more than have enough centralized damage to equate to essentially pinpoint direct fire EXCEPT you are also blowing other peripheries up.

But as the changes indicate, if you are someone that hid in the back and spam, you may hit absolutely nothing. It will change LRM mech behaviors... forces new interesting squad play (protect your artillery piece). More terrain consideration as herding enemy into a choke point for artillery fire is now a possibility.

But anyways, my idea is definitely not complete, but I feel it's a good starting point to starting matching IRL expectations with game mechanics balance.

Edited by razenWing, 04 December 2018 - 07:08 PM.


#2 FinnMcKool

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 07:12 PM

I think lrm s are better right now , but it does take the right pilot right mech , and also the right balance in a team , this is before and after all a team game.

#3 Nightbird

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 07:29 PM

IRL the LRMs as implemented in the game would be better. If your life was at stake, you wouldn't go in with direct fire intending to 'trade armor'

#4 razenWing

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 07:36 PM

View PostNightbird, on 04 December 2018 - 07:29 PM, said:

IRL the LRMs as implemented in the game would be better. If your life was at stake, you wouldn't go in with direct fire intending to 'trade armor'


Merely talking about destructive property. IRL you have drone/satelite mark target and just rain death without your life ever be in danger. But this is afterall... a video game, so there must be some in-between ground between doing nothing and doing something.

#5 Nightbird

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 07:50 PM

Destructive property, direct fire does more damage per ton since missiles need to spend a greater percentage of mass on not explosive stuff.

You may be comparing a 200 pound shell with a 500pound missile.

#6 razenWing

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 08:13 PM

View PostNightbird, on 04 December 2018 - 07:50 PM, said:

Destructive property, direct fire does more damage per ton since missiles need to spend a greater percentage of mass on not explosive stuff.

You may be comparing a 200 pound shell with a 500pound missile.


I don't know... how much energy in a stinger missiles vs a tank round?

(also, that percentage can be dependent on range, but there is no velocity decrease for missiles across it's expected range)

Edited by razenWing, 04 December 2018 - 08:15 PM.


#7 FupDup

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 08:17 PM

Why are we using IRL damage values in a game set more than 1000 years in the future that is already making a mockery of physics by the mere existence of giant robots?

#8 Nightbird

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 08:21 PM

View PostrazenWing, on 04 December 2018 - 08:13 PM, said:


I don't know... how much energy in a stinger missiles vs a tank round?

(also, that percentage can be dependent on range, but there is no velocity decrease for missiles across it's expected range)


I mean it's simple, the missile has to carry the fuel with it as it flies, in addition to guidance sensors, avionics, and finally the payload. The tank shell sends only the payload forward. If you want to talk about IRL, it's just physics. That been said, it's easy to build much larger missiles and therefore larger payloads. In battletech we see mostly small missiles because of AMS is common on the battlefield. A big missile just gets shot down 100% of the time when there's AMS.

Edited by Nightbird, 04 December 2018 - 08:26 PM.


#9 Y E O N N E

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 09:53 PM

@OP:

1. All projectiles are technically missiles
2. The distinction you are looking for is propelling method, in this case rocket vs. powder in a tube
3. Whether launched via rocket or powder charge, the projectile can be fitted with secondary munitions and can even include guidance packages; you can even merge the two and fire a rocket-assisted shell
4. Missiles, as you are using the term, typically have more range than a gun at the expense of increased bulk and cost if you want them in quantity

Missiles are great stand-off weapons, but their advantages count for little more than an additional resource drain if the fight gets into gunnery ranges; in BT, the proliferation of AMS and, later, ECM ensures that fights never remain at stand-off ranges. IRL, stealth technologies, active defense measures, RoE, and good-old logistical limitations ensure that fights do not remain at stand-off ranges.

#10 WhineyThePoo

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 10:29 PM

No

#11 UnofficialOperator

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 11:08 PM

Using current day real life technology to balance a technological fantasy in the distant future.

Mmmm hmmm tell me more.

PS: Btw real life tank warfare has very low TTK, nukes exist and it shouldn't be difficult for kinetic orbital strikes in the near future.

#12 Vellron2005

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 01:45 AM

View PostrazenWing, on 04 December 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Direct fire - low arc fire, fastest way to hit enemy
Indirect fire - can be fired with mere red targeting, but missiles will only travel to last recorded positions
Direct support fire - if friends have NARC or direct site, see Direct fire.


People need to stop trying to nerf the indirect nature of LRMs..

LRMs need only 3 things changed to them:

1) Increase lock-on arcs back to original values to bring back LRM bending.

2) Make LRM missile flight path able to go as low as ATMs IF the target is below cover, or if there is a direct line of fire.

3) Add a re-lock feature that would let us lock a target, fire the missiles, than if we lose the lock on oringinal target, be able to get a lock on a DIFFERENT target while the missiles are in flight, and have the missiles hit this secondary target.

Edited by Vellron2005, 05 December 2018 - 01:50 AM.


#13 IronWatch

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 09:56 AM

I would so much rather see LRMs removed entitely than buffed at all. Theoretical realism (lol) aside, they do not create fun gameplay for anybody but missile boat pilots.

Edited by IronWatch, 05 December 2018 - 10:00 AM.


#14 MechaBattler

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 10:35 AM

To be fair in the battletech universe. They stopped using the more advanced missile systems because they weren't cost effective. Instead they went with simpler LRMs that rely on sheer volume of missiles to destroy layers of the more powerful armor they use in Battletech. That and apparently ECM became so rampant that the range of LRMs became the norm because anything else just wouldn't work accurately with all that ECM kicking around. And I'm not even talking about the more powerful version of ECM they eventually developed. Or so I've read. I'm not that well versed in the lore.

A big part of why Battletech is different than our 'modern' combat. Is the armor. In our universe the weapons outstrip the defensive technology. But in Battletech the armor is some kind of super ablative armor, able to disperse kinetic energy as well as heat across it's surface. At the cost of shedding layers.

Personally I think more buffs for LOS firing LRMs would be a good idea. Encourage more risky game play instead sitting in the back.

#15 razenWing

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 12:17 PM

View PostMechaBattler, on 05 December 2018 - 10:35 AM, said:

To be fair in the battletech universe. They stopped using the more advanced missile systems because they weren't cost effective. Instead they went with simpler LRMs that rely on sheer volume of missiles to destroy layers of the more powerful armor they use in Battletech. That and apparently ECM became so rampant that the range of LRMs became the norm because anything else just wouldn't work accurately with all that ECM kicking around. And I'm not even talking about the more powerful version of ECM they eventually developed. Or so I've read. I'm not that well versed in the lore.

A big part of why Battletech is different than our 'modern' combat. Is the armor. In our universe the weapons outstrip the defensive technology. But in Battletech the armor is some kind of super ablative armor, able to disperse kinetic energy as well as heat across it's surface. At the cost of shedding layers.

Personally I think more buffs for LOS firing LRMs would be a good idea. Encourage more risky game play instead sitting in the back.


Right? I think a lot of people like nightbird who is so hung up on semantics, that honestly, my idea would nerf indirect, buff direct, and at the same time, introduce a new niche function to be an artillery piece.

Fixes all current problem AND introduce new layer of play. What's not to like?

#16 Nightbird

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 12:22 PM

You caught me, as soon as you asked for 2 damage per missile, I stopped taking this thread seriously.

#17 JediPanther

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 12:35 PM

View PostIronWatch, on 05 December 2018 - 09:56 AM, said:

I would so much rather see LRMs removed entitely than buffed at all. Theoretical realism (lol) aside, they do not create fun gameplay for anybody but missile boat pilots.

I'd rather see any mech able to mount single and double heavy guass removed entirely but we all can't have our way now. If it wasn't for lrm boating I'd never have started playing mwo, gotten into reading the books, found and played the prior mw titles or spend two very fun years playing cw in a unit with a fun bunch of guys.

Oh it's funny how two of the first four mechs in the game since day one came stock with lrms. And no ecm or ravens around either.

<a href="https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=12&l=1bc28190f1c1105d007d2b89b9286d864535fa75">CPLT-C1 Stock</a>

<a href="https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=16&l=71389ff6fcd5e721e323c85cb86f8a750ff82a92">AS7-D Stock</a>

What makes your anti-lrm stance even more amusing is the vast amount of mechs that come stock with lrms. Now if only I could get my wish of single dual hgr carring capable mechs removed just because *I* hate that weapon combo so much think about how the game would be improved. Or someone wants the medium laser removed? Let's just remove all weapons from the game for a month and turn knock downs back on. Think that'll improve the game any?

#18 Chris Lowrey

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 12:37 PM

While we can't get into it too much since we have to work through some technical difficulties that we encountered internally with what we have been working on behind the scenes, should we eventually get further functionality that allows for more direct vs. indirect mechanics to be in play, we will be balancing the weapons accordingly if we are able to get this functionality in.

As Paul has allowed me to say at Mech_Con that we have been looking into shallower, more direct trajectories for direct fire situations we can say that we are looking to push for more of a divide between the Direct vs. Indirect roles of the weapon. But naturally, we need to work on clearing out some of the technical difficulties we encountered before we look into any potential releases. Should we get that functionality in, we will be balancing to account for any new functionality that comes with any changes to the base weapon system.

#19 Metachanic

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 12:49 PM

Chris Lowrey said:

Should we get that functionality in, we will be balancing to account for any new functionality that comes with any changes to the base weapon system.

Can you comment on whether those balancing factors would include reduced velocity or increased spread for indirectly-fired LRMs?

#20 NUMBERZero1032

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 01:01 PM

Flatter trajectories just indirectly buff the velocity, although it may also be easier to hide in cover. Still, you're hiding.
Just nerf indirect fire. Punish the players who don't want to share armor, who want to use their team as a crutch, and make them get their own locks. It will encourage players to participate more with the team if they want to get a better score. Increase spread by a dramatic amount for indirect fire only. If you make the trajectory flatter, then that will be enough of a buff already given to people firing within LOS.

Edited by NUMBERZero1032, 05 December 2018 - 01:03 PM.






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