92 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

Self-regulation only really works in small communities in real life where people can employ public shaming to police behavior.

If you're a good player or on a good team there are two sure-fire ways to increase the number of competitive matches. You either reduce your group size in order to increase the amount of deadweight on your side, or you nerf your dropdeck(s) to be sub-optimal (under-tonned, under-gunned, etc). The better you are, the bigger the handicap should be.

A lot of people give lip service about wanting competitive fights, but in my experience 90% of them immediately abandon that notion when the going gets tough. They take one hard loss and then they're immediately sending out mass invites or switching to their "serious" drop deck, or they just log off.

If you want competitive fights then you have to be comfortable losing winnable fights because you handicapped yourself. If your ego can't handle that, then you're just lying about only wanting competitive fights.

I have zero problem with people playing to win by making big groups of tier 1 players and crushing opponents beneath their boots. It just makes me bristle when they go on and on about how much they want fair fights while doing the very thing that prevents them from having those. They don't want fair fights. They want to win first and foremost. Winning a hard fought match is just a bonus.

Edited by Jman5, 12 December 2018 - 07:12 PM.
inappropriate language

[K O Z A K]

Jman5, on 12 December 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

Self-regulation only really works in small communities in real life where people can employ public shaming to police behavior.

If you're a good player or on a good team there are two sure-fire ways to increase the number of competitive matches. You either reduce your group size in order to increase the amount of deadweight on your side, or you nerf your dropdeck(s) to be sub-optimal (under-tonned, under-gunned, etc). The better you are, the bigger the handicap should be.

A lot of people give lip service about wanting competitive fights, but in my experience 90% of them immediately abandon that notion when the going gets tough. They take one hard loss and then they're immediately sending out mass invites or switching to their "serious" drop deck, or they just log off.

If you want competitive fights then you have to be comfortable losing winnable fights because you handicapped yourself. If your ego can't handle that, then you're just lying about only wanting competitive fights.

I have zero problem with people playing to win by making big groups of tier 1 players and crushing opponents beneath their boots. It just makes me bristle when they go on and on about how much they want fair fights while doing the very thing that prevents them from having those. They don't want fair fights. They want to f*cking win first and foremost. Winning a hard fought match is just a bonus.

Winning is more fun than not winning, isn't it?

I think the reality of the situation is that most people like to win, and the people that become good, especially so, that's why they get good, to win more. At the same time winning very easily gets boring. So you end up with exactly what you've described:

when smaller groups of "tryhards" drop, and end up against a large group that recognizes their tags/names. The large group tends to trip over themselves to get the win, often objective rushing to "stick it to those guys that roll us when there's more of them". When you have a dedicated enemy of 12 rushing you/objectives while your pugs are running into walls and lrming hills 2 squares away despite you trying to get them to do what needs done over comms, it can get frustrating, especially knowing if only you had another 2-3 "team guys" you would have won. Hence the groups tend to grow.

To be fair almost everyone in this argument is full of ****. The top end elite guys enjoy having some easy games with some tough group vs group fights mixed in, which is kind of what happens now, if all they wanted to do was ONLY tough comp drops, they would play comp (though that has a lot of its own issues especially with timing, and you still end up with superteams that just pull all the best players in the game exactly the same as in FP). Some of the mid/low tier units that are the loudest complainers about the subject do the exact same thing and relentlessly roll over pugs/small groups with their synchronized 12 mans, and for some reason think they are entitled to beat better groups more often. And the pugs that simply refuse to join groups, are just refusing to play the game the way it was meant to be played and think everyone should cater to them

personally I think by far the most fun drops is when you have 4 strong players and 8 mid/lower end players on both sides, but I don't see a way to make those happen more often right now, so we might as well all just enjoy the game for what it is. The matchmaker already prioritizes larger groups, which is why solos complain they can't find drops while larger groups are getting insta drop after insta drop

at the end of the day it's either a team game or it's not, you can't tell people: "oh, your skill level is too high so you must handicap yourself, so we can roll over you with our lower level 12 man", certainly not without providing incentive for the higher skilled guys to lose more often despite having the ability to win, but even then I wonder if you can really bribe the type of players that basically already more or less have whatever they want in the game

[Wil McCullough]

LordNothing, on 12 December 2018 - 07:31 AM, said:

i wonder how well those rules would fly in fp as opposed to gq. of course last thing i want is potatoes in assault mechs four drops in a row. thats a recipe for squirrel chow.

Good teams will still overrun bush leaguers even if they field all-medium decks.

Which is why self-regulation on an individual level won't work especially in an environment where opposing teams aren't pre-selected and handicaps agreed upon beforehand.

[Jman5]

Hazeclaw, on 12 December 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

at the end of the day it's either a team game or it's not, you can't tell people: "oh, your skill level is too high so you must handicap yourself, so we can roll over you with our lower level 12 man", certainly not without providing incentive for the higher skilled guys to lose more often despite having the ability to win, but even then I wonder if you can really bribe the type of players that basically already more or less have whatever they want in the game

I think it's important to reiterate that I want nothing more than for people to play how they want and with who they want. I'm not telling people to handicap themselves, or only run in groups. What I am trying to say is that I just wish people would be honest with themselves about how they like to play. If you're not having fun in FP because you're steamrolling too much, then there are solutions. However the downside is you will lose lots of otherwise winnable games and be on the flip side of those stomps.

Again, I really don't take it personally when people stomp me into the ground with a better team. I know what I signed up for when I'm queuing solo. What does piss me off is when they throw this half-apology BS in my face about how they're actually just looking for good fights. Just own it!

Edit: And I just want to say the same thing applies to those solo players who cry every time they face a premade. If you're sick of being steamrolled stop dropping solo ya ding-dongs!

Edited by Jman5, 12 December 2018 - 07:41 PM.

[Zibmo]

Hazeclaw, on 12 December 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

And the pugs that simply refuse to join groups, are just refusing to play the game the way it was meant to be played and think everyone should cater to them

Nice stereotype you've got going there. Not all of us "refuse to join groups". There are zero in-game tools to do so. And "join our TS / Discord / Mujmble / Vent server" assumes that everyone is, or should be, open to just barging into conversattions and joining up. I'm personally not comfortable with that. And on the few times I've attempted it,. it's very difficult to break into the clique (no insult intended) so I end up not saying anything and then quietly logging off. Not all of us are "lampshades on our heads, never know a stranger" types.

The game needs social tools.

[justcallme A S H]

Zibmo, on 12 December 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

Nice stereotype you've got going there. Not all of us "refuse to join groups". There are zero in-game tools to do so. And "join our TS / Discord / Mujmble / Vent server" assumes that everyone is, or should be, open to just barging into conversattions and joining up. I'm personally not comfortable with that. And on the few times I've attempted it,. it's very difficult to break into the clique (no insult intended) so I end up not saying anything and then quietly logging off. Not all of us are "lampshades on our heads, never know a stranger" types.

The game needs social tools.

LFG

Add people to friends list from a drop.

Manually Add: Friends List
Message: People on Friends List


If you don't use a mic - use text. Plenty have done so before you.

There are a number of ways, problem is those who don't want to use whats provided are just using that as an excuse, not a reason. That is how I started off. Simply logged onto a teamspeak, said esentially this 'hello, can I join your group'. Done. Didn't have to speak, just followed the comms and what not.

[K O Z A K]

Zibmo, on 12 December 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

Nice stereotype you've got going there. Not all of us "refuse to join groups". There are zero in-game tools to do so. And "join our TS / Discord / Mujmble / Vent server" assumes that everyone is, or should be, open to just barging into conversattions and joining up. I'm personally not comfortable with that. And on the few times I've attempted it,. it's very difficult to break into the clique (no insult intended) so I end up not saying anything and then quietly logging off. Not all of us are "lampshades on our heads, never know a stranger" types.

The game needs social tools.

There are a lot of players in this game that don't speak over TS at all. They join TS/Discord channels and are usually very welcome just for the fact they will listen to the people who lead

I know it's a 3rd party solution, and it sucks it's not incorporated into MWO, it is one of the major flaws of the game, but you have to be willing to use other tools available to you

[Captain Caveman DE]

Zibmo, on 12 December 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

The game needs social tools.

there's enough tools around - the game needs social behavior instead.
that includes the 12'men stompgroups as well as the solo-yolos.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 13 December 2018 - 08:57 AM.

[Zibmo]

justcallme A S H, on 12 December 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

LFG

Add people to friends list from a drop.

Manually Add: Friends List
Message: People on Friends List


If you don't use a mic - use text. Plenty have done so before you.

There are a number of ways, problem is those who don't want to use whats provided are just using that as an excuse, not a reason. That is how I started off. Simply logged onto a teamspeak, said esentially this 'hello, can I join your group'. Done. Didn't have to speak, just followed the comms and what not.

Good grief. So, your contention is that the social tools in MWO are sufficient? We could not disagree more. "Don't want to use" is funny. Because finding someone in a match and then talking to them afterwards is promoted in the UI? Right? I can "friend" someone, but he may or may not see the blinking icon at the bottom of the screen, and, if he does, given that we had no way to privately chat and there is no comment you can add to the request, why would he agree? And then, assuming he DOES agree, how do we chat while building mechs or in different games?

The game needs social tools.

[edit] Although I admit that for some, denigrating others for not being "willing to use the tools" is a lot more fun. You get to feel superior about it while telling those that are NOT successful that they are somehow deficient or "unwilling". LOL.

Edited by Zibmo, 13 December 2018 - 05:35 PM.

[K O Z A K]

Zibmo, on 13 December 2018 - 05:33 PM, said:

Good grief. So, your contention is that the social tools in MWO are sufficient? We could not disagree more. "Don't want to use" is funny. Because finding someone in a match and then talking to them afterwards is promoted in the UI? Right? I can "friend" someone, but he may or may not see the blinking icon at the bottom of the screen, and, if he does, given that we had no way to privately chat and there is no comment you can add to the request, why would he agree? And then, assuming he DOES agree, how do we chat while building mechs or in different games?

The game needs social tools.

[edit] Although I admit that for some, denigrating others for not being "willing to use the tools" is a lot more fun. You get to feel superior about it while telling those that are NOT successful that they are somehow deficient or "unwilling". LOL.

Do you even read what people write, or do you just respond to what you want them to have said?

People outlined options on how you can communicate better, both using in game tools (that nobody said are optimal, but you know...they're there), and you can be using Teamspeak and Discord. Even if you don't want to talk, it's fine, some of the best players I play with never talk, and I'm always very happy to drop with them.

Instead you choose to ignore the advice people give you and instead accuse people that are trying to help of having fun denigrating you? Like really?

[Zibmo]

Hazeclaw, on 13 December 2018 - 06:32 PM, said:

Do you even read what people write, or do you just respond to what you want them to have said?

People outlined options on how you can communicate better, both using in game tools (that nobody said are optimal, but you know...they're there), and you can be using Teamspeak and Discord. Even if you don't want to talk, it's fine, some of the best players I play with never talk, and I'm always very happy to drop with them.

Instead you choose to ignore the advice people give you and instead accuse people that are trying to help of having fun denigrating you? Like really?

Those people essentially were arguing the point I made that the in-game tools were deficient. And they argued them by saying that they are sufficient, while adding denigrating comments like "refuse to use" and so on. If that is not denigration, I apologize. I thought when someone was essentially calling you an antisocial moron, that constituted an insult.

[K O Z A K]

Zibmo, on 13 December 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

Those people essentially were arguing the point I made that the in-game tools were deficient. And they argued them by saying that they are sufficient, while adding denigrating comments like "refuse to use" and so on. If that is not denigration, I apologize. I thought when someone was essentially calling you an antisocial moron, that constituted an insult.

This game is best when played grouped up with others on comms, at least listening if not speaking. That's how it is. Doing so greatly improves your experience as it is a team game.

I didn't call anyone anything, I simply pointed out that if you make the decision to play solo, you can't expect to do as well as others that take the steps necessary for teamwork. Especially in an environment where coordinated groups are rampant. A lot of people believe they are entitled to split groups up, force people not to coordinate, or that groups should somehow be handicapped to not have an advantage over those that make the decision not to work with others. But it's one of the fundamental basics of this game. The choice is yours...

[Feral Clown]

Jman5, on 12 December 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

I think it's important to reiterate that I want nothing more than for people to play how they want and with who they want. I'm not telling people to handicap themselves, or only run in groups. What I am trying to say is that I just wish people would be honest with themselves about how they like to play. If you're not having fun in FP because you're steamrolling too much, then there are solutions. However the downside is you will lose lots of otherwise winnable games and be on the flip side of those stomps.

Again, I really don't take it personally when people stomp me into the ground with a better team. I know what I signed up for when I'm queuing solo. What does piss me off is when they throw this half-apology BS in my face about how they're actually just looking for good fights. Just own it!

Edit: And I just want to say the same thing applies to those solo players who cry every time they face a premade. If you're sick of being steamrolled stop dropping solo ya ding-dongs!

I think the issue is not peoples dishonesty with themselves, but what you are projecting onto them.

The number of guys on the Cobra hub who are afraid to drop in smaller groups is minuscule. We're talking about guys who are CW diehards who play the game as much as they can, in small groups, in big groups, and solo. There are literally only two guys I can think of who won't drop with less than six, which hey, it is better than hearing those two individuals rage at pugs anyways trust me on that.

Another thing these super self projecting honesty seekers don't get, is how many guys are around who don't like super groups cause then they can't rack up 3k damage. I personally pug a good deal because do you have any idea how tough it is to chase Reckless around for scraps? Yet pug games I am hitting 2500-3500 all of the time.

So not to come down on you or anything, I just think we need to stop trying to figure out the other guys motives and such and concentrate on what we can do as a community to help. So far the only thing we have all come up with is trying to make it more inviting to experienced players to join up with the Cobra guys to see and get some experience and tactics to maybe improve. You however are not welcome cause you are too good