92 replies to this topic

[Grus]

Asym, on 09 December 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

A neat thread guys. The study team will print this one out and take it apart because you'all are now discussing "root causes" of this toxic meritocracy called MWO..... (an end-game meritocracy no less...)

Teams without limits self generate toxic behaviors..... Once a behavior or exploit is discovered, teams will focus of using it till they find something else or are "regulated by the corporation". Faction Play imploded because the teams you mentioned found a dark niche and never came out or were regulated by PGI........... Re-read the forums over the past three years and you'll see how the current discussion played out..... ENTIRE units left en masse....because of the toxic behaviors and toxic game play. It ceased to be any fun and there was no room to learn.... Match after match after match of obnoxious losses where it was intentionally and specifically cruel..... The worst of all human conditions when groups start to be believe that their behavior is a superior condition: after all we are in top of the Leader board, yes.....

Look at the scope and tell me I'm wrong, eh?! Teams in video games become toxic if teams have more than 4 players and the game does not implement rigid controls to keep any teams from exploiting lesser skilled players....... A harsh reality to face....

I've played against the teams you all have mentioned and to be honest, "it ceased to be any fun and there was no learning objective in pursuing additional games......it wasn't worth my "time" and there wasn't anything "fun" about it...."

No fun = no population: and, the facts prove I am right because everyone left............there is nothing to mitigate the absence of "fun..."...........nothing.

Toxic
https://goo.gl/images/JgvDMl

Stop useing that word because its not helping your argument.

Did the Cowboys use a "toxic" strategy to winn all those times? What about the Broncos? Or how about the 1972 Miami Dolphins? Players and more importantly TEAMS will find the best winning strategy and stick with it untill a better one comes along or someone finds a counter.. or just gets outplayed. "If it aint broke, dont fix it" its not an exploit if ANYONE can do it. If i can buy X mech and put Y weaponry on it to roflstomp everyone in front of me, id be an idiot not to...

[Zibmo]

Grus, on 09 December 2018 - 05:25 AM, said:

Wait.. ok so you dont want to win then? Wonderfull make it easier for the rest of us that do by walking backwards twords us.

Did you consider that some of us don't want to be carried because we would like to contribute and some of us don't like to be stomped without the chance to play the game.

I do want to win. But I don't want to win because I'm on a team that is OP compared to the playerbase. Win at any cost is not winning to me. There has to be inherent risk, but risk approaching 95% is not risk. It's guarantee. No matter which side of that percentage you are on.

Thank you, but no. Your glib response was not helpful.

Grus, on 09 December 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

Ill have to have a ... correctional counselling ... with them.


Nothing wrong but a lot if us like this thing called winning, it leads to another thin we like called money. If i can kill the team as fast as possable with the lest ammount of mechs expended by my self and my team.. that translates to more money and a win.

Side note. Made a alt yesterday to test out some stuff on the IS side. Did you know you can jump straight into FW day 1 before youve even played a QP match or two? I couldn't believe it.

You are the poster child for non-self regulation. Why not go down to the local elementary school and win your boxing matches?

Edited by Zibmo, 09 December 2018 - 01:09 PM.

[K O Z A K]

kamichiwa343, on 09 December 2018 - 09:15 AM, said:

This would be fantastic is certain units didn't get instantly banned when they hop in the cobra hub

Pretty sure there's only 1, and its reciprocal

[LordNothing]

Khobai, on 07 December 2018 - 06:09 PM, said:

if the weaker groups always break up after being beaten by the stronger group, what happens when theres no groups left to oppose the stronger group anymore? they just start stomping pugs again.

That solution fixes nothing.

PGI needs to realize that groups themselves have become the problem. groups arnt normally a problem when you have a healthy population of players. But MWO doesnt have that. Its player population is at the point where the game is now on life support and that allows groups of very good players to completely dominate because they know the odds of encountering an equally skilled group are slim to none. Which is only making people give up on the game more. The ability to stack teams needs to be prevented somehow.

The only way a matchmaker can ever properly work is if does whatever is necessary to balance the two teams including forcefully splitting up groups if thats whats required to ensure balanced teams. people should absolutely be allowed to play with friends but NOT when it results in stacked teams. Matchmaker should break up groups and make them fight eachother if it cant find an equally skilled group to match against them.

not quite sure that forced splitting is the way to go. i mean it can work. but i think forcing civil wars to counter dogpiles would be a lot more effective and easier to swallow for everyone, especially units. it would maximize 12 v 12s and minimize 12 v pugs. maybe a softer approach would be that dropping by lance would get faster matches, where anything with more than a 5 man would need to fight another team with at least a 5 man, dropping against a full pug team in this case would not be allowed, and if units want to do that they need to drop down to 4 or less players. in concert with the anti-dogpile measures ive been on about, i think it would be a great improvement.

in addition you might want give teams a reason to want to split up. say the planet capture mechanics produces rewards in proportion of number of drops. dropping by lance means your 12 players can accumulate 3x the number of drops which would cause you to stack planet cap points at a faster rate than dropping 12s. it also increases the opportunity to recruit pugs and they can also learn from the more experienced players on their team (pugs dont learn anything getting stomped except that "fp sucks" they leave and the population in fp tanks).

[Asym]

Grus, on 09 December 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

Toxic
https://goo.gl/images/JgvDMl

Stop useing that word because its not helping your argument.

Did the Cowboys use a "toxic" strategy to winn all those times? What about the Broncos? Or how about the 1972 Miami Dolphins? Players and more importantly TEAMS will find the best winning strategy and stick with it untill a better one comes along or someone finds a counter.. or just gets outplayed. "If it aint broke, dont fix it" its not an exploit if ANYONE can do it. If i can buy X mech and put Y weaponry on it to roflstomp everyone in front of me, id be an idiot not to...

What you say Grus is somewhat true ! But, we aren't playing for money.... This isn't a competitive sport or vocation Grus, it's a freaking silly game; with make believe physics and walking robots !!! A game.

The players I know have maybe, 1-2 hours a night to themselves....... 1-2 hours. Who in their right mind would play a game where the opposing team is treating you like crap? They weren't "better"; they were obnoxious and weren't interested in anything honorable or just...... They enjoyed the bad behaviors and relished seal clubbing and obnoxious farming.......all of the time. People at first were simply "disconnecting" from the match. Then, as the population dropped, we left the game versus put up with that kind of noxious crap......even in QP, many of the sync dropped referenced team members were obnoxious and just terrible to be around (huge ego's....) Good grief. A tough fought match you lose isn't a bad thing and losing happens..........what make it bad is that after the match, you just don't see a reason to go back and try again? Many of us are well beyond bad internet and individual bad behaviors.....which, translates into compounded bad team behaviors..... Here's an example: I dropped as an Individual with one of the elite teams several years ago. From the moment we had voice commo, the negative comments started. I wasn't welcome and they preferred that the two of us noobs defend the spawn point and do nothing.,....of course, the answer was to "grow up".....both of us Pug's drop-ins out scored the experts and at the end, the seal clubbing was about to start and we asked in they'd let the spawning last few some time to individually fight one-on-one till the game ended. Nope: they tried to TK us........ That is the level of esprit de corps we're talking about here....

Nothing justifies terrible behaviors.... You said: if it ain't broke, don't fix it, yes? Well Lad, it's broke and me and mine didn't break it...... Those teams, all of the above mentioned and more, helped make a bad situation worse and now, MWO is but a shell of what if was.....

Thanks for the reply. Sometimes Grus, you just have to say no.....and we did, and left till MWO cleans up its act.

[Khobai]

LordNothing, on 09 December 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

not quite sure that forced splitting is the way to go. i mean it can work. but i think forcing civil wars to counter dogpiles would be a lot more effective and easier to swallow for everyone, especially units. it would maximize 12 v 12s and minimize 12 v pugs. maybe a softer approach would be that dropping by lance would get faster matches, where anything with more than a 5 man would need to fight another team with at least a 5 man, dropping against a full pug team in this case would not be allowed, and if units want to do that they need to drop down to 4 or less players. in concert with the anti-dogpile measures ive been on about, i think it would be a great improvement.

in addition you might want give teams a reason to want to split up. say the planet capture mechanics produces rewards in proportion of number of drops. dropping by lance means your 12 players can accumulate 3x the number of drops which would cause you to stack planet cap points at a faster rate than dropping 12s. it also increases the opportunity to recruit pugs and they can also learn from the more experienced players on their team (pugs dont learn anything getting stomped except that "fp sucks" they leave and the population in fp tanks).

they wont split up unless you force them

they are addicted to stat padding and the protection that being in a stacked group affords

the game is simply at a point where it can no longer afford to allow stacked groups in the first place. its become toxic and its only forcing more people to quit every day.

I dont want to get rid of groups or prevent people from playing with their friends. Being able to playing with your friends shouldnt be an entitlement though. the game should split you up from your friends if it needs to balance the teams. But it should only be done as a last resort if there arnt equally skilled players in the queue.

I mean it wouldnt hurt to offer incentives to units for splitting larger groups up into smaller groups that play in separate games. But there still needs to be a mechanism in place to forced split up the large elite deathstacks.

Edited by Khobai, 09 December 2018 - 06:35 PM.

[Blockwart]

ApexSun, on 06 December 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

Players Can Self-Regulate To An 'honor' System

don't need honor. it has no weapons and no armor.

[Kroete]

Khobai, on 09 December 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

they wont split up unless you force them

they are addicted to stat padding and the protection that being in a stacked group affords

the game is simply at a point where it can no longer afford to allow stacked groups in the first place. its become toxic and its only forcing more people to quit every day.

I dont want to get rid of groups or prevent people from playing with their friends. Being able to playing with your friends shouldnt be an entitlement. the game should split you up from your friends if it needs to balance the teams. But it should only be done as a last resort if there arnt equally skilled players in the queue.

I mean it wouldnt hurt to offer incentives to units for splitting larger groups up into smaller groups that play in separate games. But there still needs to be a mechanism in place to forced split up the large elite deathstacks.

Or just make a working matchmaker,
let them play together, against other groups in their strengh.
If there is no other matching group, they can wait or split up, its on them.

Would have be a win/win, some years ago, but now its to late.

The only question is: When will be the kraken released at last mech to end the powercreep?

Edited by Kroete, 09 December 2018 - 03:33 PM.

[Khobai]

Kroete, on 09 December 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

Or just make a working matchmaker,

sure thats the idea.

a working matchmaker that balances the two teams

groups should only get split up as an absolute last resort.

[Wil McCullough]

Erm...

You guys know that if you drop in a big group, you get weight penalties right?

Like a 12 man group can only field an average weight of 50tons per player. Most of your losses will be from small groups. Not 12-mans.

[K O Z A K]

Wil McCullough, on 09 December 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

Erm...

You guys know that if you drop in a big group, you get weight penalties right?

Like a 12 man group can only field an average weight of 50tons per player. Most of your losses will be from small groups. Not 12-mans.

They're talking about FP (the mode specifically made for groups with solos as just fill ins). Some people are resentful of others enjoying the game with friends so they feel ENTITLED to force groups to split up and carry their sorry lurming butt because nobody wants to drop with them. The people I drop with at this point are probably 90% of the reason I still play this game, and I think that's true for a lot of people. The idea anyone gives a crap about stat padding at this stage is hilarious. Just have fun with the game while it's still here

[justcallme A S H]

Gotta love how the usual suspects who post FAR more than they play by many magnitudes... Keep telling everyone about the game.

A game the really don't and have not understood to a even a moderately competent level.

It's ok though guys. Keep posting. You'll be the only ones left eventually so I guess you'll then be heard? And then in a way correct - because there will be no one left to show how flawed all your statements are.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 09 December 2018 - 10:15 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Hazeclaw, on 09 December 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

They're talking about FP (the mode specifically made for groups with solos as just fill ins). Some people are resentful of others enjoying the game with friends so they feel ENTITLED to force groups to split up and carry their sorry lurming butt because nobody wants to drop with them. The people I drop with at this point are probably 90% of the reason I still play this game, and I think that's true for a lot of people. The idea anyone gives a crap about stat padding at this stage is hilarious. Just have fun with the game while it's still here

But if it's fp, self regulation will never work because the players have no control over the matchmaker or their opponents.

Self regulation relies on a few ground rules and failure to adher to these ground rules can result in expulsion from the community or some other kind of punishment like disqualification or something. This means it's only doable in a private league using group matches.

I played pvp in diablo 2 and there were gm (good mannered) leagues with ground rules on the limit of elemental absorb a character could have ( so elemental characters didn't get completely neutered). But in public pvp, anything went. Self regulation doesn't work when there's no barrier to entry or ability to punish behavior that's frowned upon.

[Khobai]

Wil McCullough, on 09 December 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

Erm...

You guys know that if you drop in a big group, you get weight penalties right?

Like a 12 man group can only field an average weight of 50tons per player. Most of your losses will be from small groups. Not 12-mans.

not in faction play

group queue does limit tonnage for larger groups which is good

but group queue still doesnt solve the problem of of a deathstack of 5-6 godly players that can play pretty much any mechs they want and still win most of the time

so its still very much an issue even in group queue. but in faction play theres just nothing at all to regulate stacked groups.

justcallme A S H, on 09 December 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

Gotta love how the usual suspects who post FAR more than they play by sole.any magnitudes... Keep telling everyone about the game.

gotta love how this is literally your only argument against me and doesnt even apply since ive played well over 30,000 games across multiple accounts in the many years ive been playing the game.

if youre going to make a counter argument it should at least involve the topic being discussed rather than making a baseless appeal to discredit someone who makes far more sense than you ever will.

justcallme A S H, on 09 December 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

You'll be the only ones left eventually

were already the "only ones left", this game has already lost most of its players. who else is gonna leave? you? because no one is gonna miss EMP pugstomping everyone. pugstomping is one of the main reasons this game continues to hemorrhage players. so good riddance.

if you have nothing to contribute about how to stop pugstomping or cant even acknowledge its a problem why are you even posting?

Edited by Khobai, 09 December 2018 - 06:50 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Khobai, on 09 December 2018 - 06:35 PM, said:

not in faction play

group queue does limit tonnage for larger groups which is good

but group queue still doesnt solve the problem of of a deathstack of 5-6 godly players that can play pretty much any mechs they want and still win most of the time

so its still very much an issue even in group queue. but in faction play theres just nothing at all to regulate stacked groups.

If they're good enough to win with anything there's no possible way to enforce self-regulation either. Yeah, you can force them to toss away the mcii and pilot an executioner. They still win. So what you gonna do next? Make them play with le foot? Haha.

Considering juju le foot-ed his way to victory in qp in both lurm and direct fire mechs, thay may not work either.

[Khobai]

Wil McCullough, on 09 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

If they're good enough to win with anything there's no possible way to enforce self-regulation either. Yeah, you can force them to toss away the mcii and pilot an executioner. They still win. So what you gonna do next? Make them play with le foot? Haha.

Considering juju le foot-ed his way to victory in qp in both lurm and direct fire mechs, thay may not work either.

thats my whole point that self-regulation wont work. the game needs a matchmaker that forcefully splits up groups.

[Wil McCullough]

Khobai, on 09 December 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

thats my whole point that self-regulation wont work. the game needs a matchmaker that forcefully splits up groups.

That's an even worse idea than self regulation lol.

Npe is already terrible because you can't group with newbie friends without throwing them into the shark pool without mm. The only way to get some form of group enjoyment going is if they play enough to git gud. With your idea, now if they git too gud, they can't play together either.

May as well wait to play mw5 if you're gonna have to do everything solo.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 09 December 2018 - 06:35 PM, said:

gotta love how this is literally your only argument against me

Ah the old "I play on 400 alt accounts" argument. Sure champ.

I mean anytime I try to have a fact based discussion with proof and evidence against your purely made up claims you just seem too...

DIS

APP

EAR

Not the only times you've done that (the above 3 links). Those are just the recent ones, that is how many there are.

Feel free to stop making up stories any time you want.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 09 December 2018 - 10:24 PM.

[Khobai]

of course I disappear debating with you is pointless

because you dont even discuss the topic. youre incapable of putting forth any valid arguments so you resort to personal attacks.

and now im done talking to you in this topic as well.

[Kroete]

Wil McCullough, on 09 December 2018 - 09:19 PM, said:

With your idea, now if they git too gud, they can't play together either.

As i understand him,
they can play together, against even enemys.
If they dont want to wait until a matching group is ready, they need to split if they want to play.

They are forced to play even groups and cant farm much weaker opponets.
Dont understand why some still want to farm weaker enemys instead fighting equal enemys.

Maybe another "challenges" thing?

Edited by Kroete, 10 December 2018 - 04:34 AM.