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Knockdown


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#21 Dimento Graven

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:45 PM

View PostSpheroid, on 07 December 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

How would it resolve that match? A King Crab can't dictate the range against a Stormcrow. If you wanted the match over you should have conceded.
Using BattleTech rules as an example of how it could be done:

From Classic BattleTech - Total Warfar, page 148:

Quote

CHARGE ATTACKS
In order for a unit to charge, the target must be in the hex
directly in front of the charging unit (disregarding torso twists) at
the beginning of the Physical Attack Phase. The charging unit may
not make any weapon attacks in the same turn.

Charging attacks must be declared during the Movement Phase
(Ground), but like all other physical attacks, they are resolved
during the Physical Attack Phase. This means the charging unit
can only attack units that have fi nished their movement. It also
means a charging unit cannot be the target of a charge or death
from above attack, because its movement will not be fi nished
until the end of the Physical Attack Phase.

The charging unit must spend MP to enter the target hex
regardless of whether or not the charge is successful. If a unit
does not have enough MP in the Movement Phase (Ground)
to enter the target hex, it may not make a charging attack See
Modifi ed To-Hit Number, p. 144, to determine the target number
for a charge attack.

If the attacking ’Mech takes damage during the Weapon
Attack Phase that forces the warrior to make a Piloting Skill Roll,
the player should roll as normal. A failed roll means the attack
automatically misses. Resolve the fall normally at the end of the
Weapon Attack Phase. An exception occurs if the unit falls into a
paved hex, in which case it is treated as a skidding ’Mech (this is
resolved at the end of the Weapon Attack Phase). It will skid for
a number of hexes equal to half the hexes it entered during the
Movement Phase; when it skids into the hex containing the unit
it was attempting to charge, it makes an unintentional charging
attack (see Skidding, p. 62).

If the target takes damage during the Weapon Attack Phase
that requires a Piloting Skill Roll and the roll fails, resulting in a fall,
the charge attack cannot be made (see Physical Attacks Against
Prone ’Mechs, p. 151).

MP Loss: A charging unit that loses MP due to damage can still
make a charging attack that turn.

Multiple Attacks: A unit may only be the target of one charging
or death from above attack in a given turn.

Prohibited Terrain: If the target unit occupies prohibited
terrain for the attacking unit, the attacker cannot charge
(meaning the player cannot declare a charge attack during the
Movement Phase).

Unusual Targets: A vehicle or ’Mech may charge a building
hex, or may be forced to accidentally charge a building or hill hex
under certain circumstances.

Infantry: Infantry units may not charge or be the target of
standard charge attacks.

ProtoMechs: ProtoMechs cannot be targets of charging
attacks.

Vehicles: All vehicles except VTOLs, WiGEs, Airships and Fixed-
Wing Support Vehicles may make charging attacks. Vehicles may
charge other vehicles, but may not be charged by ’Mechs.

DAMAGE
If the attack succeeds, both units take damage from the collision.
The defender takes 1 point of damage for every 10 tons that the
charging unit weighs, multiplied by the number of hexes moved
by the attacker in the Movement Phase, rounding fractions up
(the hexes moved do not count the hex containing the target).
The charging unit takes 1 point of damage for every 10 tons the
target weighs (round fractions up).

Divide the damage from charging attacks into 5-point Damage
Value groupings. The attacking player rolls once on the appropriate
Hit Location Table for each grouping.

If a unit charges a target in a building hex, the building hex
absorbs damage as normal (see Attacking Units Inside Buildings,
p. 171). The charging warrior also must make a Piloting/Driving
Skill Roll modifi ed by +3 in addition to the building modifi er to
avoid taking damage from entering the building hex (see Moving
Through Buildings, p. 167). If the charging unit crashes through
multiple building hexes, the warrior must make all appropriate
Piloting/Driving Skill Rolls upon entering each building hex.

Vehicles: When a vehicle charges a standing ’Mech, allocate
damage according to the ’Mech Kick Location Table. Against another
vehicle or a prone ’Mech, the normal hit location rules apply.

Regardless of whether a vehicle executes a successful charge
or is the target of a successful charge, in addition to any rolls that
might occur due to damage, the vehicle must make an immediate
roll on the Motive System Damage Table (see p. 193).

Unusual Targets: If a charge attack is made against a target
with no tonnage, such as a building or hill (for example, as the
result of a skid), calculate damage to the attacker using the
attacker’s tonnage rather than the target’s.

A 65-ton JagerMech moves 5 hexes and declares a charging
attack against another BattleMech. If the charging attack is
successful, the target takes 33 points of damage (6.5 for the
JagerMech’s tonnage multiplied by 5 for the number of hexes
it moved, rounded up).

LOCATION AFTER ATTACK
If the charging attack succeeds, the target unit must move as
if it had been pushed, and the attacker advances into the target’s
hex. (See Unit Displacement, p. 151). If the attacker misses the
target, the attacking player places his unit in the hex to the right
or left of the attacker’s forward arc.

Prohibited Terrain: If the hex into which the target unit would
be displaced is prohibited terrain (except a hex more than two
levels lower than the target’s current hex; see Unit Displacement,
p. 151), neither the attacker nor the target units move; all other
eff ects occur, however, including any Piloting Skill Rolls to avoid
falling.

FALLS
After any successful charging attack, the attacking and target
’Mechs must make Piloting Skill Rolls modifi ed by +2, plus all other
applicable modifi ers, or fall in the hex they currently occupy.


#22 DisasterTheory

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:46 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 07 December 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

Obligatory:




This WAS NOT how knockdown worked in closed beta. Mechs over 40 tons didn't get IKed or ballistic knocked at all. I never said i wanted IK put back in the game, This is not something that would improve MWO.

My original post said AC20 KNOCKDOWN.... as in the actual round hit knocking a light mech down. This video is garbage and I can now see why it was removed.

I can see some of you read my entire post and comprehended it nicely as where some of you... never read the entire thing other than the title hence the reason IK was brought up.

#23 Spheroid

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:01 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 07 December 2018 - 12:36 PM, said:


This I agree with, tonnage/20, would be a good start for straight damage dealt when ramming another mech.

An Atlas can ram for 5, a flea 1. So whilst the flea may want to get close for knife fighting he doesn't want to be so close he can be kicked, inevitably he'll be coming of 4 points worse every time they make contact.


Why are we operating on the assumption that lights need or desire to contact the surface of enemy mechs? Look at this Commando he is completely invisible to an Annihilator at 0-12 meters with the torso fully depressed. There are smaller and shorter mechs than the Commando. Lights can operate at any facing effectively and they control the range. Side and rear shots are the order of the day. Frontal groin humping is not the prevalent tactic.

All work done to "punish" lights is wasted effort because frontal groin attack isn't even the best mode of attack. Do you think assaults are going to be happier when the percentage of back kills goes up from this change?

Posted Image

Edited by Spheroid, 07 December 2018 - 01:05 PM.


#24 Dimento Graven

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:05 PM

View PostSpheroid, on 07 December 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

Why are we operating on the assumption that lights need or desire to contact the surface of enemy mechs? Look at this Commando he is completely invisible to a Annihilator at 0-12 meters with the torso fully depressed. There are smaller and shorter mechs than the Commando. Lights can operate at any facing effectively and they control the range. Side and rear shots are the order of the day. Frontal groin humping is not the prevalent tactic.

All work done to "punish" lights is wasted effort because frontal groin attack isn't even the best mode of attack. Do you think assaults are going to be happier when the percentage of back kills goes up from this change?

Posted Image
Because what the view doesn't show is the view from the cockpit where either:

A. The commando can't really be seen (maybe just the top of his head)
B. The commando can't be seen and even bent to extremis the cursor disappears underneath cockpit graphics so that you aren't really sure if you've got it targeted.

As I recall Locusts and Piranhas are even worse as if memory serves correctly, they're actually shorter than Commandos.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 07 December 2018 - 01:09 PM.


#25 dario03

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:14 PM

View PostBLOODREDSINGLE, on 07 December 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Please consider how different the game would be before posting a flame style response. It would only improve game play in both QP and FP.


How does nerfing the weaker weight classes improve game play in either QP or FP?

#26 Dimento Graven

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:21 PM

View Postdario03, on 07 December 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

How does nerfing the weaker weight classes improve game play in either QP or FP?
Actually with properly implemented knock down rules, BOTH 'MECHS, even in a light-vs-assault confrontation would have a chance of being knocked down.

#27 Spheroid

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:45 PM

I am just going to core out your rear CT. Adding charge attack is wasted effort. This game is in maintaince mode. They are not going to direct the few remaining programming staff to these trivialities.

Edited by Spheroid, 07 December 2018 - 01:47 PM.


#28 DisasterTheory

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:50 PM

View Postdario03, on 07 December 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:


How does nerfing the weaker weight classes improve game play in either QP or FP?



See that right there is our problem.... those classes arn't weak at all. Add in poor hit registry and 15 machine guns and suddenly you have a pir running around untouchable with 3-5 kills by endgame. Ive seen this many times and even resorted to running streak Arctic Wolf variants to counter them. Even streaks are starting to become ineffective to a 129kph poor hit registry pir.

View PostSpheroid, on 07 December 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

I am just going to core out your rear CT. Adding charge attack is wasted effort. This game is in maintaince mode. They are not going to direct the few remaining programming staff to these trivialities.



I never said anything about charge attack knockdown. Please read my OP before further responses.

#29 Spheroid

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:53 PM

What is the source of the knockdown if not melee? If you think knockdowns will be common through the clumsiness of lights you are sadly mistaken.

Something has to force the knockdown or it won't occur.

#30 DisasterTheory

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:56 PM

View PostSpheroid, on 07 December 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

What is the source of the knockdown if not melee? If you think knockdowns will be common through the clumsiness of lights you are sadly mistaken.

Something has to force the knockdown or it won't occur.



OP - "Back in closed beta just one AC20 would knock down a Jenner or Commando pretty easy making the current player mentality of rushing mechs much heavier than itself obsolete. The AC20 hasn't had the same effect since it was striped of its ability to knock a light or small medium on its butt.

In a nutshell what I'm proposing is any mech under 40 tons can be (CAN BE) knocked down from a single hit from a single AC20.

Mechs weighing 45 to 55 tons will be vulnerable to knockdown from a single shot from Dual AC20's."

#31 Prototelis

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:01 PM

View PostBLOODREDSINGLE, on 07 December 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:



See that right there is our problem.... those classes arn't weak at all.


Yes they are, lights and mediums are the lowest scoring classes in the game.


Quote

Add in poor hit registry and 15 machine guns and suddenly you have a pir


Its 12 homie.

Quote

running around untouchable with 3-5 kills by endgame.


I get touched plenty in the PIR, so do most other pilots I know that play them. Those kills are clean up on already dead mechs. But I wouldn't expect you to know, you don't play lights that often. I honestly play the FLE a lot more, because it is so got damn untouchable.

Quote

Ive seen this many times and even resorted to running streak Arctic Wolf variants to counter them. Even streaks are starting to become ineffective to a 129kph poor hit registry pir.


I assure you they are not. The real deal is good light pilots are continually cycling targets for paper dolls and avoiding streaks because they are a counter to an entire in game class.

#32 Spheroid

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:04 PM

The AC-20 is a junk weapon and hasn't been relevant in years. If you insist on bringing one you are simply inviting defeat for all the other targets and maps conditions that you will randomly face.

Also most large ballistics are torso mounted so you will still have tracking and depression issues. As in my screenshot I show that I don't have to be in your crotch to be invisible. If you can't see me you can't get the torso reticle over any part of me.

#33 Mole

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:13 PM

I don't think knockdowns should be brought back. The video that was posted here already with Paul getting trolled by those goons is an excellent example of how a knockdown system can and will be abused. The only time I could agree with this is if the knockdown can only be done as a result of a hit from a heavy weapon such as an AC/20 or a Heavy Gauss Rifle. Bumping into a 'mech to knock it over really should stay in the scrap heap. If you want to do something about leg-humping lights in particular, I say just make leg damage on repetitive collisions exponential. That way, if you accidentally tap someone you're not going to break their leg, but if a light runs up to you and just starts grinding on you, they'll kill themselves pretty quick. No skin off my back. I know how to play my lights without leg humping.

#34 DisasterTheory

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:13 PM

View PostSpheroid, on 07 December 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

The AC-20 is a junk weapon and hasn't been relevant in years. If you insist on bringing one you are simply inviting defeat for all the other targets and maps conditions that you will randomly face.

Also most large ballistics are torso mounted so you will still have tracking and depression issues. As in my screenshot I show that I don't have to be in your crotch to be invisible. If you can't see me you can't get the torso reticle over any part of me.


Its a Junk weapon because of Weapon knockdown being removed and Ghost Heat added.

#35 Dimento Graven

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:15 PM

View PostBLOODREDSINGLE, on 07 December 2018 - 02:13 PM, said:

Its a Junk weapon because of Weapon knockdown being removed and Ghost Heat added.
I don't think it's a 'junk' weapon, it's just prohibitively situational...

#36 DisasterTheory

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:17 PM

View PostMole, on 07 December 2018 - 02:13 PM, said:

The only time I could agree with this is if the knockdown can only be done as a result of a hit from a heavy weapon such as an AC/20 or a Heavy Gauss Rifle.



This is what my entire OP was saying. The AC20 had this ability in closed beta contrary to what someone said it DID knock a light on its butt when a direct hit was scored.

#37 Dimento Graven

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:19 PM

View PostBLOODREDSINGLE, on 07 December 2018 - 02:17 PM, said:

This is what my entire OP was saying. The AC20 had this ability in closed beta contrary to what someone said it DID knock a light on its butt when a direct hit was scored.
I just don't remember this being a feature, but I admit, closed beta was a LONG time ago...

Maybe it was removed very early in the closed beta? It took a few weeks before I had working system capable of running the game...

#38 Mole

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:20 PM

AC/20 a junk weapon? I have a pile of 'mechs that were built around one or even two and they all kick ***. With the exception of my Atlas and Kodiak, most of my AC/20s have been upgraded to UAC/20s but they're still AC/20s. My Roughneck, Cataphract, Marauder, Orion, Orion IIC, Annihilator, Atlas, Marauder IIC, Executioner, and Kodiak all field an AC/20 of some type to quite devastating effect.

#39 DisasterTheory

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:24 PM

View PostDimento Graven, on 07 December 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

I just don't remember this being a feature, but I admit, closed beta was a LONG time ago...

Maybe it was removed very early in the closed beta? It took a few weeks before I had working system capable of running the game...


Myself and a few friends that are also old Ex-Mechwarrior 3 players all used dual AC20 catapults and even another fellow player used the Centurion with an AC20 before they introduced the YLW and removed it. We never had an issue with any light mechs untill the feature was removed suddenly the anklebitters started becoming more and more of a problem.

#40 Mole

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 02:27 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 07 December 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:


The delicious irony of this thread is that adding knock down isn't going to solve OPs problem with hitting lights. It's just going to make the game worse off than it already is.


Well if what I'm getting out of the OP is correct, he would have to land a hit on a light with an AC/20 in the first place to achieve a knockdown. It doesn't seem as though he is suggesting that we bring back just bumping into someone being enough to knock a 'mech off its feet. Now I don't have a lot of trouble with lights because I can usually hit them well enough to at least frighten them away even if I'm in my assaults, but even I find it fairly difficult to land an AC/20 on something as small and nimble as a Locust or a Piranha.





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