100 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Ok lets break down this crock of ********.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

lol. Do you honestly thing you've made any good points?

Earlier you said: "Good mechs and weapons are fun to play. People like to play them, so they play them more."

This brilliant argument is why I brought up comp play.

This does not change how little bearing competitive has on the overall representation of the veagle in quickplay. The Veagle is popular in quickplay because its fun to play. It's not popular because NAVID or Sean Lang play it.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

You're intentionally making a braindead argument here. There is no reason to nerf urbanmechs.

By your logic there is. If you're dragging competitive performances into the argument then by your logic any mech that can outperform you is ripe for a nerf.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

Please, explain to me why Veagles are easier to fit into optimized decks than any other medium mech? I fail to grasp this point.

I already did.

pbiggz, on 17 October 2021 - 09:02 PM, said:

The Veagle is relatively fast, it has good hardpoints, 55 tons is a very good weight class in general for balancing firepower, durability, and speed, perhaps the best, and its a Clan Battlemech. That's why its good.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

Ok, so the poll isn't good enough, and comp play doesn't do it for you, and the combination of the 2 doesn't convince you either. And, you don't understand why they are so widely used in every single game mode. Good luck, sir.

I never denied they were popular, I said they aren't overrepresented. They aren't anything more than marginally more popular than other mechs. You are taking two entirely irrelevant pieces of information and presenting them as sacrosanct because you already think the veagle is OP, this just confirms your opinion.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

lol, no.

Confirmation bias is a *****.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

Please, try to make a coherent argument. Are you saying it's not popular, or are you saying it's not good? Or are you saying we have no idea whether it's popular or good, without the official statistics?

Oh I'm certain its good. I'm certain its popular. I think it should be good, and it should be popular. That's where we are conflicting here. You think if a mech is popular enough, and fun enough to play, its somehow inherently in need of nerfs. I'm arguing that mechs and weapons that feel good and fun to play should be left as is because it's a ******* video game people play for fun.

We tried the paul inouye retribution balance approach and it was a disaster. We tried the Chris Lowrey wet noodle balance approach and it was also a disaster. What more proof do you need to see that your idea of balance for this game is elaborate suicide for the playerbase? I can only imagine this comes out of your account being created in 2019, and you simply not experiencing the rise and fall of this game, as well as the miracle revival it had. Games like this, don't usually ever get a second chance. Squandering it to make you happy because you don't like it when people play what they want, is a ******* waste.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

I play this game enough, and I understand the game enough, to know that it's the strongest mech in the game, and it's the most popular mech in both comp & FP.

This is anecdote and nothing more.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

QP is more casual, and people tend to bring whatever mech needs skill points, etc. Also, comp could have fluctuations by season due to varying rules. Comparing it to similar mechs, it stands out from the crown in a way that no other mech in the game does. That's why you rarely see good players playing Huntsman anymore. The Huntsman is still a good mech... but the Veagle rendered it obsolete.

So A: You're admitting your anecdotes are heavily impacted by any number of externalities, and B: These are more anecdotes.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

"bad hitboxes" - yeah, right. Also: outgunned? It can't be "outgunned by many mechs" AND be considered a glass cannon at the same time. Your arguments don't even make sense.

Are you playing stupid, or are you actually stupid? A 55 ton glass cannon is different from a 100 ton glass cannon and if you need someone to explain that to you, then you know far less about this game than you think you do.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

It's outgunned by Annihilators, but it has extremely high firepower for its weight class. And it's not a glass cannon - maybe you just lack the piloting skill to use it effectively.

Ah good, comparing a 55 tonner to the most heavily armed assault mech in the game because that will provide us with so much useful information. And it is a glass cannon, which you would know if you bothered to shoot it instead of lamenting every time you saw it.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

Jump jets alone give it better survivability than a Stormcrow.

The stormcrow, an excellent example of a powerful mech that got nerfed into the ground because people like you were too busy whining about it to bother shooting it. The scarecrow is notoriously bad these days, so, just like comparing it to a ******* annihilator, this provides us with exactly zero useful information.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

Lastly, I never claimed that PGI should just shoot from the hip & nerf it. I understand that they will use the official stats while balancing the game. My recommendation is for them to use negative quirks as a solution for the Veagle.

It's literally what you're advocating for. You want reactionary nerfs for things you think are overperforming. Your "solution" is for a problem you think exists.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 03:58 AM, said:

Now you're complaining about ad-hominems, while still accusing me of "crying" over getting killed by Veagles?

You're trash. Bring any medium you want, and 1v1 me. I'll bring a Veagle. It should be no problem for you to beat a glass cannon mech with bad hitboxes & no defensive quirks.

Ad hominem.

[Vlad Ward]

Fainting Goat, on 17 October 2021 - 12:19 PM, said:

Why shouldn't negative quirks happen?

Negative quirks just, like, aren't fun, brah.

[Tesunie]

Vlad Ward, on 18 October 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

Negative quirks just, like, aren't fun, brah.

I'm stating this only as a comparison, not as anything more.

What is the difference between a negative quirk a mech, and a mech that has no quirks on it while all other mechs have quirks? It could be seen that having no quirks could be a negative quirk in and of itself, which then leads to people complaining about the mech being penalized with no quirks at all.

Or, if we "never nerf and always buff", then mechs that are over buffed (Thunderbolt with it's massive PPC quirks back in the day anyone) would result in every other mech being forced to have more and more buffs to compensate.

Sometimes, a nerf is in order to bump a stray overperformer back into line. This is not saying negative quirks or not to buff, but that sometimes you may need to consider such possibilities. Overall though, negative quirks are seen poorly by many people, so it is typically better perceived to add buffs by many people. Even reducing quirks is often seen poorly, even though these are already advances over the base stats...


I will remind, before people respond to me, that I am not advocating for nor against any changes to this mech. I would also like to mention that this thread is suppose to be discussing the concern of back hit box able to be hit from the front, not the overall performance of the mech or is popularity. As a final reminder, this thread was started back in 2018, much closer to the mech's release...

[Steve Pryde]

Fainting Goat, on 17 October 2021 - 01:11 PM, said:

I only cry for my opponents after I wreck them all in my Veagles... as I would cry for you if we ever 1v1'd.

So, we're already at that point? Bringing no arguments and just dissing people because you think you're "good"? Sorry but I'm too old for **** like this.

Vapor Eagle is a excellent mech in group fights, yes but in a 1v1 you will lose most of the time against other mediums because they have more armor and agility. Or another example, the Hellbringer, a excellent heavy mech in a group but it sucks *** in a 1v1. And why is that so? Because it's lacking armor (quirks) and enough tonnage for weapons to kill mechs quick because it has no endo and ferro armor.

Vlad Ward, on 18 October 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

Negative quirks just, like, aren't fun, brah.

This and btw, PGI (or the cauldron) do this hidden in terms of different agility. For example, Kodiak variants have all different agility values. Kodiak-3 for example has the worst of them all because it performs the best from all Kodiaks.

Edited by Steve Pryde, 18 October 2021 - 09:08 AM.

[pbiggz]

Tesunie, on 18 October 2021 - 08:29 AM, said:

I'm stating this only as a comparison, not as anything more.

What is the difference between a negative quirk a mech, and a mech that has no quirks on it while all other mechs have quirks? It could be seen that having no quirks could be a negative quirk in and of itself, which then leads to people complaining about the mech being penalized with no quirks at all.

I actually think the veagle is mostly in a good place and doesn't need help. I don't think having no quirks should be seen as a negative quirk. A negative quirk is a specific, targetted nerf meant to tamp down a specific chassis or variant. That is easily a no-fun scenario where people who like a mech will feel they are being singled out in the name of some ethereal balance point that doesnt exist. In essence, goat would be using negative quirking as a form of retribution. That definition of balance states that players and mechs that perform well are subject to nerfs. Fun isn't the priority in that model.

Tesunie, on 18 October 2021 - 08:29 AM, said:

Or, if we "never nerf and always buff", then mechs that are over buffed (Thunderbolt with it's massive PPC quirks back in the day anyone) would result in every other mech being forced to have more and more buffs to compensate.

I opposed those nerfs back in the day. I am a strong supporter of letting certain mechs have unique, build defining quirks. You could argue maybe they needed to be tamped down, that's fine, but letting the Tbolt be a scary PPC sniper, or a pulse laser brawler, was some of the most fun I had in years.

Tesunie, on 18 October 2021 - 08:29 AM, said:

Sometimes, a nerf is in order to bump a stray overperformer back into line. This is not saying negative quirks or not to buff, but that sometimes you may need to consider such possibilities. Overall though, negative quirks are seen poorly by many people, so it is typically better perceived to add buffs by many people. Even reducing quirks is often seen poorly, even though these are already advances over the base stats...

As I said before, we did an end run on the entire game, nerfing as we went, and it basically killed the entire population of the game. The resurgence we've had has been significantly impacted by the cauldron being willing to execute buffs. Until then, buffing was unheard of in this game. Nerfs were the only tool PGI was willing to use. Can we get carried away with buffs? For sure. I'm not advocating for veagle buffs. I think its fine. I'm pushing back against someone who's crusading for it to be sent into obscurity because he doesn't like them.



Fun needs to be the priority in balancing, not tamping down a bar on a graph you've never seen but suspect is high.

[MechWarrior5782621]

"This does not change how little bearing competitive has on the overall representation of the veagle in quickplay. The Veagle is popular in quickplay because its fun to play. It's not popular because NAVID or Sean Lang play it."

That is actually correct - but, it's also irrelevant. People in QP are often just messing around, so that doesn't really mean anything.

When people do use the Veagle, it outperforms. That's why good players always run it when they care about winning (ie: comp, and also FP).

"By your logic there is. If you're dragging competitive performances into the argument then by your logic any mech that can outperform you is ripe for a nerf."

What, no. Any mech that consistently outperforms needs a nerf - if the outperformance is significant enough. Use your brain.

"I already did."

Nonsense. Any other medium could "fit" into a dropdeck just as easily. People use the Veagle because it's better.

"Are you playing stupid, or are you actually stupid? A 55 ton glass cannon is different from a 100 ton glass cannon and if you need someone to explain that to you, then you know far less about this game than you think you do."

Ok, genius, then let's go back to what you actually said. You claimed that Veagles are "outgunned by many mechs". So, please, explain which specific mechs you were referring to.

What is it outgunned by? By your own logic, these should be mechs of a similar weight class. Please, enlighten me. And it can't just be 1 or 2, because you said, "many".

"This is anecdote and nothing more."

That's more than you have, which is absolutely nothing to support your opinions.

"It's literally what you're advocating for. You want reactionary nerfs for things you think are overperforming. Your "solution" is for a problem you think exists."

No, it literally isn't - as I just told you.

To be more precise, so that even you can understand it: if PGI crunches the numbers and finds that Veagles are not outperforming, then I don't want them to take any action whatsoever. If the data shows that it is outperforming, then I recommend negative quirks. Do you understand?

"Ad hominem."

Oh, you're the only one who gets to use ad hominems?

You think I don't know how to shoot Veagles? Why don't we have a 1v1 so we can find out who can shoot Veagles, and who only whines on the forums?

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 11:01 AM, said:

Stuff

The quality of this argument has decline to the point where I point out a problem with your argument, and you go "nuh uh" and then make some other wild, unfounded claim.

I don't respect that you want to nerf things because you don't like them. That's not respectable. It's not a defensible position, or a coherent one to hold.

If every rebuttal I give you is responded to with "nuh uh" then nobody here is actually going to be interested in interacting with you.

Edited by pbiggz, 18 October 2021 - 11:43 AM.

[MechWarrior5782621]

You're the only one saying "nuh uh". You have not pointed out any problems with any of my arguments. You're the one who is failing to support his arguments with data, or even real-world examples.

Also, I never said that I don't like Veagles. I like them very much, and I pilot them all the time, with great success. They're a lot of fun to play.

The reason I want them to be nerfed is because they are overpowered. Do you understand?

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 01:09 PM, said:

nuh uh

[MechWarrior5782621]

lol. I patiently addressed each of your flimsy arguments, and you simply give up like this. I expected more.

[Scout Derek]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 01:09 PM, said:

The reason I want them to be nerfed is because they are overpowered. Do you understand?

If they are overpowered with minor to no quirks, shouldn't have been added to the game in the first place, but, here we are. And there's not much we can do about it now.

I don't think negative quirks is the way, At best, you want to nerf it's mobility in some way or form. Best case example would be the Night Gyr. But at this point in the game, it's a matter of mechs not being balanced properly to have better alternatives for about... 2 or so years before PGI finally caved in and are now enlisting a group with some of the current best players in it, trying to make a difference.

I think the Vapor will stay as a staple mech to have, but at least now there will be alternatives to piloting the jack of all trades mech by introducing quirks to mechs that fill in niches the Vapor has to compete with.

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 01:21 PM, said:

lol. I patiently addressed each of your flimsy arguments, and you simply give up like this. I expected more.

You failed to address anything I said. This argument doesn't exist in a vacuum. WE HAVE DONE WHAT YOU WANT BEFORE and it trashed this game. I was there. I saw it.

I don't know what part of that you are failing to understand, but if you can't get it through your thick head, that's a you problem.

Edited by pbiggz, 18 October 2021 - 01:31 PM.

[MechWarrior5782621]

"You failed to address anything I said."

That is obviously false. I have quoted your exact words, and provided my responses.

"This argument doesn't exist in a vacuum. WE HAVE DONE WHAT YOU WANT BEFORE and it trashed this game. I was there. I saw it."

Once again, I have already mentioned that false equivalences are a logical fallacy.

PGI has done balance passes before - tons of them, in fact. Sometimes they improved the game's balance, other times they failed to do so. That doesn't mean they should just give up. Nerfs & buffs can both be used effectively, when they are done right.

[Scout Derek]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 01:48 PM, said:

PGI has done balance passes before - tons of them, in fact. Sometimes they improved the game's balance, other times they failed to do so. That doesn't mean they should just give up. Nerfs & buffs can both be used effectively, when they are done right.

Like I said earlier, a different group is in charge of that now. And to add, they've stated negative quirks are not going to be given to mechs.

[MechWarrior5782621]

Did they give any reason for that decision? It seems arbitrary, and reeks of anchoring bias. If an unquirked mech is overpowered, then nerfs are the most sensible way to balance the game.

[Scout Derek]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 01:56 PM, said:

Did they give any reason for that decision? It seems arbitrary, and reeks of anchoring bias. If an unquirked mech is overpowered, then nerfs are the most sensible way to balance the game.

Would be too much of a mess to balance. That is to say, they won't adjust mechs accordingly, they just won't use negative quirks to do so, if that makes any sense.

[MechWarrior5782621]

Fair enough. But I've been seeing hordes of Veagles and Hellbringers in FP for as long as I can remember. I wonder if that will ever change.

[pbiggz]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 01:48 PM, said:

That is obviously false. I have quoted your exact words, and provided my responses.

You quoted my words, then repeated your own unfounded assertions. That is not the same as addressing an argument.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 01:48 PM, said:

Once again, I have already mentioned that false equivalences are a logical fallacy.

If you think its a false equivalence it's because you don't understand what you're asking for.

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 01:48 PM, said:

PGI has done balance passes before - tons of them, in fact. Sometimes they improved the game's balance, other times they failed to do so. That doesn't mean they should just give up. Nerfs & buffs can both be used effectively, when they are done right.

Nobody is advocating for not balancing the game, that's an assertion you have made.

I'm arguing against using nerfs as a primary balancing tool in this situation because it's patently unjustified. The Veagle is not that scary. It just has good hardpoints and it is a good weight for a clan mech. If it wasn't the veagle, people'd be spamming the huntsman, or whatever the next best thing was because people drive mechs that are good and fun to drive. They always will, no matter what you think you want to do.

The hellbringer is exactly the same. Its a 65 tonner with lots of room for guns and you can fit alot of them into an FP dropdeck. It's not inherently broken, it's just efficient. That is not a grounds for nerfs.

[Scout Derek]

Fainting Goat, on 18 October 2021 - 02:06 PM, said:

Fair enough. But I've been seeing hordes of Veagles and Hellbringers in FP for as long as I can remember. I wonder if that will ever change.

Maybe in the future, but right now, the group (known as the Cauldron) has a plan, and, with how very few are actually working on MWO currently, sometimes not everything the group wants in a patch can't be done, in fact, there's been quite a few setbacks that it's actually been frustrating to deal with.

But the way I look at it, I'm glad somethings changing in the game to make me want to play atlases again, play my blackjacks, my adders, and so forth. If there were no changes, I probably wouldn't be here in this forum trying to explain what's going on and why not to worry too much.

[MechWarrior5782621]

"You quoted my words, then repeated your own unfounded assertions. That is not the same as addressing an argument."

Nah. I wasn't repeating myself. You're just putting forth this bad-faith argument rather than responding to my arguments.

"If you think its a false equivalence it's because you don't understand what you're asking for."

I perfectly understand what I'm asking for. You are falsely claiming that they have already done it, which they have not.

"Nobody is advocating for not balancing the game, that's an assertion you have made.

I'm arguing against using nerfs as a primary balancing tool in this situation because it's patently unjustified. The Veagle is not that scary. It just has good hardpoints and it is a good weight for a clan mech. If it wasn't the veagle, people'd be spamming the huntsman, or whatever the next best thing was because people drive mechs that are good and fun to drive. They always will, no matter what you think you want to do."

Incorrect. The Veagle is completely unbalanced, you just refuse to accept that fact, and you hide behind the fact that we don't have access to the full data set.

"The hellbringer is exactly the same. Its a 65 tonner with lots of room for guns and you can fit alot of them into an FP dropdeck. It's not inherently broken, it's just efficient. That is not a grounds for nerfs."

No, it's not the same at all. People bring Hellbringers to FP, but you don't see them very much in comp. That's a huge difference. The Hellbringer is good, and it's convenient for a lot of dropdecks. The Veagle, in contrast, is completely broken.

You can't substitute a Huntsman for a Veagle, because the Veagle is 10x better. If they nerfed the Veagle it would solve the problem, because there is no other mech in the game that can dominate the way Veagles do.