137 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 29 December 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

if you cut off the hot part of a red hot poker it doesnt just disappear. the hot part is still there. its still giving off heat.

The hot part is lying on the ground after it got cut off, giving off heat to the ground but not to the rest of the poker.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Khobai, on 29 December 2018 - 09:34 PM, said:

thats not how heat works. the heat doesnt disappear just because the heatsinks were destroyed. all heatsinks do is transfer heat from the inside of the mech to the outside air. when heatsinks are destroyed the heat is still trapped in the mech and unable to be transferred to the air.

scientifically it does make sense... but people play games to escape the tyranny of realism.

As a game mechanic its just not fun. It should be reverted because it isnt fun. You dont need any other reason than that.

If you are using a roll of paper towels to soak up the water in a bowl, and you throw some of them away, do the rest get even wetter, or does the water the towels contained go with them?

Now tell me where the heat from the sudden heat spike is coming from if the side torso has been instantly blown off in a violent manner. All of the heat that was built up in the torso went with the wreckage. It doesn't teleport back to the center torso and the other side torso.

Future heat build up will be dealt with far less effectively, but the heat of RIGHT NOW is irrelevant, because it's laying on the ground smoking.

Edited by LT. HARDCASE, 29 December 2018 - 09:50 PM.

[Vyx]

I think we are seeing 'destroyed' heatsinks differently. You see them as non-functional, but still remaining on-board; harboring heat, but dissipating none. If this were the case, then the heat capacity of the mech should remain the same (the mass is still there), and only the dissipation should be lowered. This is not the case.

I see them as blown asunder, perforated, opened-up, and vaporized. Thus, the heat that their matter held is no longer part of the mech's body. In this case, capacity and dissipation are both lost -- but so is the heat the sink contained.

Edited by Vyx, 29 December 2018 - 09:54 PM.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

In terms of how the Battletech board game treats heat, the better analogy is a cooling tower at a nuclear power plant.

If you blow up 1/3rd of the power plant which happened to contain the cooling tower, then you have same amount of internal waste heat coming from the main reactor as you had before, but now suddenly much less ability to dissipate it per second.

BOOM. Meltdown.

Truthfully, it would be more accurate to call them heat vents rather than heat sinks.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 29 December 2018 - 09:55 PM.

[Khobai]

because the heatsinks themselves dont store heat. the heatsinks just dissipate the heat to the air. the heat is brought to the heatsinks using cooling lines that carry fluid with high thermal capacitance (liquid helium probably). theres probably hundreds of feet of cooling lines in a typical mech.

the heat is stored in the cooling lines that bring the heat to the heatsink. the cooling lines run throughout the entire mech. and if the heatsinks are destroyed that heat cant escape.

FupDup, on 29 December 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

The hot part is lying on the ground after it got cut off, giving off heat to the ground but not to the rest of the poker.

yeah but in the case of the mech the hot part isnt the heatsinks. its the heat trapped in the cooling lines that run through the whole mech that can no longer go anywhere because the heatsinks are gone.

but again realism is not something a game should attempt especially at the expense of fun.

Edited by Khobai, 29 December 2018 - 09:58 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

There's no way of knowing from the game mechanics whether we're meant to treat destroyed components as wrecked in place or blown away. The game doesn't drop off destroyed torsos the way it does arms, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all the bits and pieces of the lost torso really remain where they were before.

Since the fun argument favors having the destroyed bits fall off and take their heat load with them, rather than generate a bigmclargehuge instakill spike, I'd tend to favor the "blown away" interpretation.

Besides, if your heat sinks are destroyed to a degree that they've been severed from your overall heat system and can't have any more heat transferred to them, then does it not make sense that they would also not be able to transfer heat back to the rest of the system? Since the coolant lines and ductwork and whatnot has been, y'know, destroyed? Wouldn't the ruined bits of heat sink just sit there radiating off whatever heat they already contained at the natural rate of their materials, rather than immediately dumping their full heat load back into the rest of the 'Mech as if they were still connected one way but not the other?

*edit- put another way, every heat sink on your 'Mech is cross-connected to every other so that the heat load can be distributed for even, efficient cooling. When a heat sink is destroyed, the current mechanics treat that sink as though it can still transfer heat to other sinks, but not have heat from those sinks transferred back. The connection is still active in one direction, but not the other (and, furthermore, the connection from the destroyed sink still functions as if it hadn't been destroyed, distributing the heat load instantly to all the other sinks). Before the change, the connection in both directions was severed, and the heat in the lost sink effectively removed from the system.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 29 December 2018 - 10:00 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 29 December 2018 - 09:52 PM, said:

because the heatsinks themselves dont store heat. the heatsinks just dissipated the heat to the air.

the heat is stored in the cooling lines that bring the heat to the heatsink. the cooling lines run throughout the entire mech. and if the heatsinks are destroyed that heat cant escape.

yeah but in the case of the mech the hot part isnt the heatsinks. its the heat trapped in the cooling lines that run through the whole mech that can no longer go anywhere because the heatsinks are gone.

Okay then, so the heat stored in the heatsinks cooling lines of your side torso is then gone because that part of the cooling line is lying on the ground after being blown off your mech.

Edited by FupDup, 29 December 2018 - 09:58 PM.

[Vyx]

Smurfy's clearly indicates (mouse-over the 'Stats' section) that all heat sinks (weather single or double, clan or IS) have both 'dissipation' and 'threshold' (meaning increased capacity). Heat sinks store heat. It's where the heat is pooled, so it can be discharged efficiently.

Edited by Vyx, 29 December 2018 - 10:04 PM.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 29 December 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

Okay then, so the heat stored in the heatsinks cooling lines of your side torso is then gone because that part of the cooling line is lying on the ground after being blown off your mech.

again not how it works. each heatsink cools the ENTIRE mech, not just one location of the mech. Since heatsinks cool the entire mech and not just the location theyre in that means each heatsink is part of the one big cooling sytem that runs through the entire mech. so youre completely wrong that its a closed system. it very obviously is not.

the cooling lines run from the fusion reactor in the CT out to each of the heatsinks. they arnt just contained in the side torso. afterall its the heat output of the fusion reactor that needs to be cooled.

again it basically works the same way as the radiator in your car. if your radiator falls out of the bottom of your car all the heat in the hoses and lines is still going to exist. Its not going to disappear because your radiator is no longer connected.

you really dont understand how cooling systems work if you think just sticking a heatsink on the outside of the mech is going to do much good cooling the mech.... for efficient cooling the heat needs to be carried from the reactor in the CT through cryogenic lines that run out to the heatsinks.

so yeah it absolutely is realistic that destroying heatsinks would cause a spike in heat. but realism aside, its just not a fun game mechanic. It should absolutely be reverted.

Vyx, on 29 December 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

Smurfy's clearly indicates (mouse-over the 'Stats' section) that all heat sinks (weather single or double, clan or IS) have both 'dissipation' and 'threshold' (meaning increased capacity). Heat sinks store heat. It's where the heat is pooled, so it can be discharged efficiently.

yeah but its also an oversimplification for game purposes. because realistically heatsinks couldnt work unless there were cryogenic lines transporting the heat output of the reactor to the heatsinks.

a "heatsink" does not store heat. the purpose of a heatsink is to radiate heat to the outside air. thats the opposite of storing heat. the heat is actually stored in the coolant lines that transport the heat to the heatsinks.

so if you break it down realistically the heatsinks themselves contribute to heat dissipation and the thermal capacitance of the coolant is what provides heat capacity. battletech uses the term heatsink liberally to refer to the overall cooling system.

Edited by Khobai, 30 December 2018 - 08:00 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 30 December 2018 - 07:38 AM, said:

again not how it works. each heatsink cools the ENTIRE mech, not just one location of the mech. Since heatsinks cool the entire mech and not just the location theyre in that means each heatsink is part of the one big cooling sytem that runs through the entire mech. so youre completely wrong that its a closed system. it very obviously is not.

the cooling lines run from the fusion reactor in the CT out to each of the heatsinks. they arnt just contained in the side torso. afterall its the heat output of the fusion reactor that needs to be cooled.

again it basically works the same way as the radiator in your car. if your radiator falls out of the bottom of your car all the heat in the hoses and lines is still going to exist. Its not going to disappear because your radiator is no longer connected.

you really dont understand how cooling systems work if you think just sticking a heatsink on the outside of the mech is going to do much good cooling the mech.... for efficient cooling the heat needs to be carried from the reactor in the CT through cryogenic lines that run out to the heatsinks.

so yeah it absolutely is realistic that destroying heatsinks would cause a spike in heat. but realism aside, its just not a fun game mechanic. It should absolutely be reverted.

1. In order to remove heat from a system, a radiator MUST be able to hold heat

2. Your car doesn't heat spike when the radiator disappears, it starts heating up because the engine is still running and it can't dissipate it away as well; this gets compounded by the coolant being pumped out of the vehicle. This is akon to losing heat capacity and dissipation, not a heat spike.

3. I'm going to assume that 'Mechs can close off parts of the cooling loop so they don't pump it out of the system when one component is deatroyed; all of the heat in that deatroyed loop, including it's coolant lines and heatsinks, is now on the ground.

4. If my entire cooling system is containing 10000 J of energy as heat, and it is spread homogeneously, when I lose 20% of my system I lose 20% of the energy. My total percent heat capacity remains unchanged, but from that point on each joule of heat added has a 20% greater impact since I only have 80% capacity and dissipation.

[Prototelis]

You can test this mechanic in real life by manually closing the thermostat on a running vehicle that is at operating temperature. It won't heat up instantly, but it will start to heat up pretty damn quick.

Air cooled motorcycles are especially vulnerable to loss of cooling (the air moving across the cylinder/head or through the oil cooler). Contrary to what most people believe, the added benefit of an oil cooler is not derived from the cooler itself, but the additional oil capacity it gives you.

[R Valentine]

I hate the ST change. It's PGIs lazy clan nerf, but also nerfing every IS mech the LFE breathed new life into. Use LFE on your energy build? May as well fit XL. Even if you survive the heat spike, odds are you won't be able to fire. more than once before death given how neutered your heat dissipation is. As symmetrical brawlers also lose. Having no heat dissipation mid fight is insta-death. How dare you shield side! Back to the garbage heat with your build!

[Astrocanis]

I really don't care about the rationale. I care about the fact that this is yet another change that is fun-debilitating and leads to even more "Imonna stay in back so's I doesn't get hit." Just more frigging Hidewarrior Online.

New game mode: hide and seek.

[Prototelis]

Meh, they should just lower the penalty. Instead of keeping all of the heat you should lose most of it. Keep 20% with cxl 10% with LFE.

Just enough to bump you a little over 100% if you're at threshold (negligible override damage), but not enough to stunlock you for several seconds.

[SFC174]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 December 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

1. In order to remove heat from a system, a radiator MUST be able to hold heat

2. Your car doesn't heat spike when the radiator disappears, it starts heating up because the engine is still running and it can't dissipate it away as well; this gets compounded by the coolant being pumped out of the vehicle. This is akon to losing heat capacity and dissipation, not a heat spike.

3. I'm going to assume that 'Mechs can close off parts of the cooling loop so they don't pump it out of the system when one component is deatroyed; all of the heat in that deatroyed loop, including it's coolant lines and heatsinks, is now on the ground.

4. If my entire cooling system is containing 10000 J of energy as heat, and it is spread homogeneously, when I lose 20% of my system I lose 20% of the energy. My total percent heat capacity remains unchanged, but from that point on each joule of heat added has a 20% greater impact since I only have 80% capacity and dissipation.

Gonna have to +1000 on this one. As another example I own several pieces of equipment whose function (in the context of this argument) is to turn kinetic energy into heat. They do this through absorbers which are cooled using an oil to water cooling system.

I have complete control over the cooling system (coolant flow rate, coolant shut-off, etc.). When I first start running these units in the morning I don't have to turn the cooling system on at all. There is plenty of reserve heat capacity in the equipment itself (each unit is about 400 kg of metal and fluid) and in the circulating medium (hydraulic oil) to operate for some time before they reach an alarm temperature (about 70 C). When they are running with the cooling system, we maintain a steady temperature. If I suddenly turn the system off (or have a pump failure) the temperature does not suddenly spike. It will start to rise immediately, but that's only because I'm still pumping energy into the system through the absorbers. In fact, as soon as we stop running the absorbers will often turn off the coolant flow and the temperature does not noticeably change.

Shorter and simpler, I could literally disconnect the coolant system (remove all heat sinking) and as long as I don't dump additional heat into the system (keep running the absorbers = fire more weapons) the temperature will not go up.

The mechanic that PGI implemented has no basis in physics or reality. Now, I know its a game and physics don't often apply properly to begin with, but they could only have implemented it this way as a mistake, or as a deliberate nerf to certain engine types. It was stupid, it's not fun, it's bad for the game, and I think they know if they PTS'd it before release it would've created an uproar.

[AncientRaig]

TBH, I really hope this new ST penalty gets removed or *heavily* reduced. My Wolverine with 1 AC10, an ML, and an SRM6 lost its ST on HPG Manifold and went from 20% on the heat bar to 80% on the heat bar. It became basically impossible to dissipate heat and I died because I was unable to effectively fire back. On one of the most heat efficient maps on a mech that's heat neutral. I might as well just run an ISXL on everything at this point because there's no difference in effective survivability and I can get more tonnage for weapons and speed.

[Kynesis]

RJF Volkodav, on 14 December 2018 - 01:34 AM, said:

What this change does is direct nerfing of heat capacity for all of the meks which is directly influencing every build ingame and as long as it is much more dangerous to get shutdown while brawling than poking it is a direct nerf of brawling meks.

From my point of view this underscores the most important aspect of the entire mess, which is that it introduces an un-knowable (to mere humans playing the game) and invisible mechanic to an existing mechanic, that on top of all of that, carries match-ending consequences.

By extension, that joint mechanic renders existing items (engines) that are core to the game unreliable and erases the design space between the different kinds of engines.

The patch notes do sound like this measure was taken because actually fixing the problem is beyond the scope of PGI's skill set. I appreciate that as an outsider, it's easy to grumble about the detriments of this implementation, but the cure is clearly vastly worse than the original problem.

Edited by Kynesis, 31 December 2018 - 04:11 PM.

[Kynesis]

Imagine taking your car in for service because an important gauge isn't quite working properly, the mechanic tells you he hasn't fixed the gauge, but he's modified the motor to compensate - that you'll just have to drive more carefully, without an accurate gauge because the whole thing might suddenly explode.