60 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Jackal Noble, on 15 December 2018 - 08:04 PM, said:

"Give em a prize! What's he get Johnny?" "Two more years of mediocre!"

Just sayin', if we have to have additional penalties for heat I'd rather have one that doesn't essentially kill players outright.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 15 December 2018 - 08:29 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Agreed, and that is a logical concept with merit.
These are supposed to be advanced weapon systems; one would assume that some such security measures would be in place so as to maintain the weapon itself from destruction. idk

[Kaeb Odellas]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 December 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

I think I'd rather the heat impact your weapon cooldowns instead of speed and agility.

Heat already impacts cooldown in a sense, if you're worried about shutdowns or overheat damage. Having heat directly impact cooldown would pretty much force heat discipline onto the player, since they have no choice but to not shoot.

I'd like to see ghost cooldown as a penalty for an energy draw system. You want big alphas? Then you'd best not miss.

Heck, let's add different spooky mechanics to other weapons too. Fire too many missiles? Ghost spread. Missiles can't cluster too closely or they'll hit each other. Fire too many big ballistics? Then you overload your gyro and lose agility.

Giving players more resources to juggle would encourage more mixed builds, as different weapons types consume different resources with their use. Energy weapons consume lots of power and generate lots of heat. ACs generate a little heat and consume gyro power and ammo, while using little power. Gauss rifles generate almost no heat but consume more power. Missiles generate moderate heat and consume low power, but spread more if too many are fired at once.

[Jackal Noble]

lol as if clan missiles don't spread enough already

[Prototelis]

Extra pentalties should be client effects. Like fuzzy hud, shakey aim, etc

[Kaeb Odellas]

Jackal Noble, on 15 December 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

lol as if clan missiles don't spread enough already

I'd be fine with clan missiles not spreading as much if they just lower cooldown for being half the weight and size.

[Khobai]

your mech should shut down no matter what at 100% heat. you shouldnt be able to override 100% shutdown. you cant override 100% shutdown in tabletop. And it makes no sense that you can in MWO either because 100% should represent the point where your mech simply no longer functions due to overheating.

the heat system should be changed to have two shutdown thresholds. one at 80%-90% you can override and one at 100% you cant. if you override the first threshold at say 80%-90% youd suffer the appropriate penalties (speed penalty, weapon cooldown penalty, HUD scramble, loss of sensors, etc..) for overriding. but if you hit the second heat threshold at 100% you should just shut down no matter what. thats way more consistent with how tabletop works. heat capacity could also be increased so it wouldnt feel much different than it does now except when youre redlining in heat.

the game needs to have consequences for riding high heat and hitting 100%. And currently those consequences are non-existent or not very severe. Allowing people to override 100% shutdown is ridiculous and should really be removed from the game. If you hit 100% heat you should pay the price for it by auto-shutting down.

Edited by Khobai, 15 December 2018 - 11:25 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Technically, firing anything in table top that results in more than 0 heat at the end of the turn is already going into override.

[Khobai]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 December 2018 - 11:14 PM, said:

Technically, firing anything in table top that results in more than 0 heat at the end of the turn is already going into override.

nah override checks to avoid shutdown dont start until +14 heat in table top

at +14/+18/+22/+26/+30 you roll to make an override check and if you succeed on the roll you dont shut down. each time it gets increasingly harder to not shutdown.

but at +30 heat you just shutdown automatically


tabletop has multiple shutdown thresholds. each threshold requires you to make a progressively harder roll to not shut down and the last threshold makes you shutdown automatically.

MWO should have the same thing. There should be multiple shutdown thresholds. just two though: one you can override at around say 80% and one you cant override at 100%. And overriding at 80% should trigger a bunch of penalties to speed, weapon cooldown, etc... . Also you could increase the heat capacity by like 20% or whatever so it wouldnt feel much different than it is now.

100% heat should be the absolute limit your mech can tolerate before heat causes irreparable damage to the electronic components. If your mech doesnt shut down at 100% it would just suffer catastrophic damage and never be able to restart. Thats how it is in tabletop and it makes way more sense.

Edited by Khobai, 15 December 2018 - 11:40 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 15 December 2018 - 11:27 PM, said:

nah override checks to avoid shutdown dont start until +14 heat in table top

Not what I mean. Penalties for having heat start much earlier. In practical terms, that's overriding the system limits because what you are doing is actively degrading its performance. Like firing an MG through an overheated barrel.

[Jay Leon Hart]

HammerMaster, on 15 December 2018 - 06:07 PM, said:

Your point is over simplified as the penalty to movement and gunnery are so huge that if they were not IGNORED as they are now the ammo is just one small part.

My point was there doesn't need to be an additional penalty for (non-Gauss) ammo based weapons, which are already less common than energy only or energy + Gauss builds.

The other penalties don't matter, if they apply to everything equally, as they cancel each other out in a comparison.

[Khobai]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 December 2018 - 11:36 PM, said:

Not what I mean. Penalties for having heat start much earlier. In practical terms, that's overriding the system limits because what you are doing is actively degrading its performance. Like firing an MG through an overheated barrel.

no. simply overheating is not overriding. overriding is only done to prevent shut downs.

theres a threshold where the mech can be overheating but not overheating enough to have to shut down.

in battletech that threshold is between +1 and +13 heat. the mech is simply running hot, but not hot enough that its going to suffer damage if it doesnt shut down. but at +14 heat thats when the mech wants to start shutting down due to the heat expanding and destroying the electronic components plus the high risk of ammo explosions.

MWO should work the same way. Only when your heat reaches the first shutdown point (again say ~80%) should you be able to override to avoid shutdown. And if your heat ever reaches the max (100%) your mech should automatically shut down without the ability to override. Because if you ever hit 100% heat your mech is at the point where it just cant work anymore without cooling down and rebooting/restarting.

The way heatscale works in MWO is not a very good translation of battletech's heatscale. You should not just be able to alpha repeatedly upto 99% heat and then ride your heat in the high 90 percentiles without any penalties whatsoever. There should be actual consequences for constantly riding your heat above 80%. And if you ever hit 100% heat you should be punished for it by autoshutting down.

Edited by Khobai, 16 December 2018 - 06:15 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 16 December 2018 - 05:57 AM, said:

no. simply overheating is not overriding. overriding is only done to prevent shut downs.

theres a threshold where the mech can be overheating but not overheating enough to have to shut down.

You don't understand and I will not press any further. Complain about today's engineers not knowing Joule's Law(s), but unwittingly lack common engineering sense?

K.

[razenWing]

An original idea thread from Nightbird!!! OMG!! First in like 2 years??????

Now for some pay back for how you trash other people's original ideas...

*rub hands together

JK. Either way, you took the initiative and came up with an original idea, so I will treat it as such from a top 50 player and analyze it... objectively.

Basically, who will benefit from a slower heat death and no shutdown?

Is it the noobs as the thread claims? Nah, the accidental shutdown probably saves more lives at the beginner level.
Is it the experienced? Nah, most of us decent commoners don't really shutdown because of our adjustment to heat by now. We don't do overrides much because... we still want the safety valve. But at the same time, we don't shut down for no raisen because our adaptation to heat through stagger fire or simply... less weapon and more heatsinks.

But you know who WILL benefit FOR SURE?

The elite god tiers like... well... Nightbird!

What is the first thing they do when they hop into a match? It is to press O, and leave it on all day. Of their 40% chance to die, 50% is from enemy fire, but really... 50% is from their "pushing the limit" and gambling on the RNGesus that their 10% overheat will not cause an instant death.

Don't get me wrong. That's super admirable. And you and the likes can pull it off... great! Good for you.

But honestly, those are the only people that your proposed idea will benefit. The richer gets richer. The stronger gets stronger. Not enough advantage in this game as of right now?

But that's not to say that this idea is a total elite just want better things thread. When a rich person says he wants his children to not die of hepatitis, maybe the intent is selfish. But the idea is still awesome, with a tweak.

So for the hepatitis vaccine, rather than making them 1 million dollars a pop, just find a way to mass produce, and now... NOBODY's children will die at the age of 5.

Which is simply what we need from Nightbird's idea...

I like several parts. One... heat's ability to affect movements and actual functionality. I do not like the overthreshhold thing. That's the true intention disguised by good mechanical suggestion.

Basically, leave overheat issue be, but move the penalty for heat buildup much sooner.

At 50% heat buildup, you suffer a 10% heat movement penalty.
The scales until you hit 40% heat movement penalty at 99% heat.

This approach will encourage people to run cool, and not the NGNG motto of run hot or die.

In fact, I will take this further.

Old Mechwarrior 3 had cockpit scrambling from various affects. I don't know why Microsoft or PGI have refused to implement that. But let's say, heat also causes distortions. You gain red filters starting at 50% until you literally have lights and flashing alarms at 99% (which, at 100% you shutdown, so... theres that)

Because cockpit distortion is a thing... let's take this idea and run even further.

When hit by an EMP, right now, it's nothing (well, it's 45 damages from those poptarting ********. O, wrong EMP?) But what if, a PPC hit scramble instrument for 2 seconds like in MW3? Like your cockpit literally scrambles. If you are seeing through natural vision (no heat or night vision), the sight will be clear. But your night and heat vision will be scrambled as well.

Flamers... flamers is less of a thin laser, but a huge glowing vision blocking hues if used on a battlemech's cockpit. Maybe half of your vision gone if someone is flamethrowing you.

Damage to cockpit. Instruments and panel show visible damages, minimap and other instrument data panel starts flickering depends on severity of damages.

Perfect. I like this version of Nightbird's idea. It changes the dynamics of play for EVERYBODY. It creates new and exciting elements.

You're the best Nightbird!

Edited by razenWing, 16 December 2018 - 12:02 PM.

[Khobai]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 December 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

You don't understand and I will not press any further. Complain about today's engineers not knowing Joule's Law(s), but unwittingly lack common engineering sense?

K.

youre the one that clearly doesnt understand how overriding works.

again you only override in tabletop and MWO to avoid a shutdown. thats why its specifically called "shutdown override" derpa derp.

overheating is NOT the same thing as overriding. you can overheat without overriding. and you can override even when youre not overheating (it just wont do anything). they are two completely different concepts. overheating is when your mech generates excess heat beyond its heatsinks ability to remove. overriding specifically refers to the act of pressing the override button to avoid shutting down.

and it works the same way in real life. say your car's cooling fan stops working. your car is now overheating. you can either drive short distances and then stop for a bit and let the car cool down periodically. Or you can "override" and just keep driving and risk blowing a radiator hose and possibly damaging the car in other ways too. again theyre two different things.

in battletech mechs can overheat a certain amount before anything really bad starts to happen (like pilot damage, ammo explosions, etc...). Once theyre overheating enough that really bad things can happen they tend to want to shut down to avoid them. Thats when you can manually override and choose suffer the really bad things in order to keep the mech running. But theres also a point where the mech is just so hot you cant override anymore. Thats how it should work In MWO too: there should be an earlier shutdown trigger at ~80% you can override and another shutdown trigger at 100% you cant override.

razenWing, on 16 December 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

At 50% heat buildup, you suffer a 10% heat movement penalty.The scales until you hit 40% heat movement penalty at 99% heat.

that seems excessively punitive. I dont think heat penalties should kick in until around 80%. we dont need to discourage people from alphastriking, just discourage them from constantly redlining at 80%+ heat without any consequences.

At ~80% your mech should trigger a shutdown. If you override that shutdown then your mech should suffer heat penalties for overriding. And at 100% you should just shutdown period without being able to override. And then simply increase the heat capacity by 20%-25% so it feels about the same as it is now.

heat is a lot easier to control exactly in tabletop than MWO so that necessitates that heat be more forgiving in MWO. although currently its way too forgiving. Riding heat at 80%+ needs to be punished. And hitting 100% heat needs to be punished way more.

that way choosing to stay above 80% heat and suffering tons of penalties or cooling down to remove the penalties actually becomes a choice the pilot has to make.

Edited by Khobai, 16 December 2018 - 08:05 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

In the tabletop, it is a simulation of what generally what happens in a 10 sec span and allowed a player to control 4-5 mechs. Nor did it mean that all the weapons were fired at the same moment during that 10 seconds, it is a simplification.. Solaris VII was dueling rules meant for 1 on 1 and broke it down to 2.5 secs, and the heat scale/bar the number of heatsinks equipped accounted for a much smaller portion, it is 1/4 of the standard Battletech scale/bar.

[MechaBattler]

I still think they should add the flickering hud when you're above a certain threshold. Just for that added feeling of immersion and intensity. Though I bet a lot of people would whine that it's 'unfun' to have that added level.

[Nightbird]

If you want to shift the penalties from 101% - 150% to 81% - 130%, or change the width of the zone, it's fine with me. The main benefactor is pugs that keep shutting down for a free headshot. 'God-tiers' that want the optimal damage trade will not accept an agility penalty that keeps them from getting back into cover.

[Nightbird]

razenWing, on 16 December 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

Now for some pay back for how you trash other people's original ideas...

Some other threads you can trash (bump):

https://mwomercs.com...-server-chance/
https://mwomercs.com...metric-scaling/
https://mwomercs.com...and-suggestion/
https://mwomercs.com...-dynamic-teams/
https://mwomercs.com...n-in-one-month/
https://mwomercs.com...nce-of-jam-bug/
https://mwomercs.com...specialization/
https://mwomercs.com...rovement-ideas/

[The Image]

HammerMaster, on 13 December 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

No.
No it doesn't sound more fun.
It sounds like more of the same high heat, pin point , alpharrior drek we are already saddled with and SICK OF!
More fun would be :
Print a record sheet.
Use the established rules for overheat.
Hit penalty (the jumpjet crosshair dance)
Speed penalty
Pilot damage.
Ammo cook off
Stackpole (exlpode)
Over 100% is asenine.

Suggestion reeks of old MW4 no heat/no ammo server. Disgusting!

Goddang if that doesn't sound like something I've heard Dimento Graven ranting about.

I agree with this!