9 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Currently the Corsairs have very official sounding nomanclature, as if they are produced off of a factory line. However as Sarna.net itself states:

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This particular series of 95-ton BattleMechs is identified by the COR- alphanumerical code as if it were a regular production model. This is odd insofar as no proper production was known to take place in the Oberon Confederation or elsewhere before it was overrun by the Clans in 3049, nor does a standardized refit program seem plausible, as there are only relatively few 95 ton designs to begin with and they are invariably considered extremely rare in the periphery.

So, basically, these shouldn't have such names. I don't expect them to all be heroes or anything, but I think they should have something different, more space pirate-like for names of the variants. Names fitting of what the fluff says they are. It won't affect anything to simply rename them to make them more lore friendly.

(Also to begin with 5....implies it is a 5th generation model, then it goes into 6 and 7. Is there no understanding of how Battletech's nomenclature works?)

[Tesunie]

Koniving, on 25 December 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

Currently the Corsairs have very official sounding nomanclature, as if they are produced off of a factory line. However as Sarna.net itself states:



So, basically, these shouldn't have such names. I don't expect them to all be heroes or anything, but I think they should have something different, more space pirate-like for names of the variants. Names fitting of what the fluff says they are. It won't affect anything to simply rename them to make them more lore friendly.

(Also to begin with 5....implies it is a 5th generation model, then it goes into 6 and 7. Is there no understanding of how Battletech's nomenclature works?)

I'm going to say that the designation was probably created solely to make a designation for the game. As technically it should be a Frakenmech once off and rarely/never duplicated again... it wouldn't have a solid designation. However, this game probably required something to be placed into that field, so PGI just "made something up", as it obviously will have more copies than just one like it would in lore.

Also consider, we all can run in Yen-lo-wangs, a once off custom mech. Sure it was based off the Centurion, but it was still a once off mech. So lore number limitations need not apply for game assets.

(Mind, I'm not disagreeing with you. I feel they should have given each "variant" it's own designation/name as though they were all hero mechs, much like the Flea's Fire Ant variant...)

[Koniving]

Tesunie, on 26 December 2018 - 08:33 AM, said:

Also consider, we all can run in Yen-lo-wangs, a once off custom mech. Sure it was based off the Centurion, but it was still a once off mech. So lore number limitations need not apply for game assets.

(Mind, I'm not disagreeing with you. I feel they should have given each "variant" it's own designation/name as though they were all hero mechs, much like the Flea's Fire Ant variant...)

Fire Ant I think is cute, its a nod for MechCommander 2 I believe.

Yen Lo Wang, not sure if it was inherited or a separate mech, but if separate there's actually two. If its the same and just completely recustomed again so be it. (One has an axe, one has claws, one has an AC/20, one has a Gauss Rifle, the two are piloted a generation apart).

But yes exactly, however PGI could have easily given them separate names.

They went decently far to make them look different. Some have only a right arm, some only have a left, one has no arms. I think one might have two arms. (By that I mean full arms).

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Side note I had to make a correction to the 5R weapons description, when I made the mech (in Megamek for the PGI created mechs thread in Battletech discussion) I was two tons short despite having the full list from Sarna and distributing them as per the MWO store page.
Then I realized it said two tons AC/10 and 1 ton LRM ammo.

It actually had three tons AC/10 and 2 tons LRM ammo on the MWO store page.

(Also changed "average endurance for a pirate mech" to "nearly military-grade endurance for a pirate mech". Though its actually excessive even for military grade).
(Placement of the ammo particularly on the Ravager hero kinda defies unspoken building conventions of BT).

Edited by Koniving, 26 December 2018 - 08:49 AM.

[Tesunie]

Koniving, on 26 December 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

Fire Ant I think is cute, its a nod for MechCommander 2 I believe.

Yen Lo Wang, not sure if it was inherited or a separate mech, but if separate there's actually two. If its the same and just completely recustomed again so be it. (One has an axe, one has claws, one has an AC/20, one has a Gauss Rifle, the two are piloted a generation apart).

But yes exactly, however PGI could have easily given them separate names.

They went decently far to make them look different. Some have only a right arm, some only have a left, one has no arms. I think one might have two arms. (By that I mean full arms).

----------

Side note I had to make a correction to the 5R weapons description, when I made the mech (in Megamek for the PGI created mechs thread in Battletech discussion) I was two tons short despite having the full list from Sarna and distributing them as per the MWO store page.
Then I realized it said two tons AC/10 and 1 ton LRM ammo.

It actually had three tons AC/10 and 2 tons LRM ammo on the MWO store page.

(Also changed "average endurance for a pirate mech" to "nearly military-grade endurance for a pirate mech". Though its actually excessive even for military grade).
(Placement of the ammo particularly on the Ravager hero kinda defies unspoken building conventions of BT).

Fire Ant was revealed to be a variant of the Flea, but was used in MechCommander 2.

The Yen-lo-wang was passed down through Justin's family and revamped a few times in it's life. Once for it's conception, then after the Clan Invasion it was upgraded with top of the line tech (Gauss), then again when his kid was given the mech for their own Solaris debut (where the axe and shield comes from)... It had a long life in lore. But it was all the same mech.

I did not realize that the Corsair's arm geometry changed so much. That's kinda neat.

Realize, new PGI made heros are created with this game's mechanic's more in mind than TT or BT lore. Hence, they have more armor and ammo than their TT counterparts would be likely to have.

[Koniving]

Tesunie, on 26 December 2018 - 09:13 AM, said:

Fire Ant was revealed to be a variant of the Flea, but was used in MechCommander 2.

The Yen-lo-wang was passed down through Justin's family and revamped a few times in it's life. Once for it's conception, then after the Clan Invasion it was upgraded with top of the line tech (Gauss), then again when his kid was given the mech for their own Solaris debut (where the axe and shield comes from)... It had a long life in lore. But it was all the same mech.

I did not realize that the Corsair's arm geometry changed so much. That's kinda neat.

Realize, new PGI made heros are created with this game's mechanic's more in mind than TT or BT lore. Hence, they have more armor and ammo than their TT counterparts would be likely to have.

I know, the time period also gives them more wiggle room on that.

This said the heroes are supposedly canonical, though the loadouts not necessarily the same.

But as part of that thread, I'm putting its heroes (and at least one regular variant) to test in Megamek, first against the performance of other 95 tonners in a series of challenges against enemies and objectives, and then against what pirates were more likely to actually use in fluff, and compare just how expensive it all would be.

The Ravager, for example, using some help from resources for money conversion in USD (2016) compared to cbills (3062), would cost:

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Cost: 19,917,008 C-bills (to put it into perspective 1 Cbill in 3062 = $7.20 USD in 2016: In US dollars this mech costs $143,402,457.60)

This is assuming it was new and built in a factory, something Megamek Lab can't account for is field prices, that's why its gonna go through Megamek HQ any further cost comparisons.
Also found the ideal quirk to make it more fitting with being a frankenmech. Non-Standard. This makes getting spare parts a bit more difficult. Though with a little bit of tomfoolery if I happen upon salvage of the mechs specified by Corsair's Sarna page, I'll ensure they can be grafted at no purchasing cost to get around the 95 ton parts only for 95 ton mechs.

[Cichol Balor]

should they also be arbitrarily limited to only a few players so that there are not very many in the game? or does gameplay sometimes outweigh realism in lore?

[Tesunie]

Cichol Balor, on 26 December 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

should they also be arbitrarily limited to only a few players so that there are not very many in the game? or does gameplay sometimes outweigh realism in lore?

The only thing we are pointing out here is that the Corsair is a frankenmech, and we are merely mentioning the fact that it shouldn't hold a "factory" designation. Even if it was a common "field refit" (much like placing Riflemen parts onto a Wolverine*), it wouldn't have designations that were factory codes as they where not created within a factory. It's lore flavor that has no impact on the game itself.

* It was rather "common" for spare Wolverine legs to house a Riflemen torso (or vise versa) as a field refit when there where parts left of each could no longer form a single working mech. Though "common", it was not a factory refit nor a factory produced "model", so it never had factory statistics nor name codes. Much like how Hero mechs (mechs that where customized off factory) would often not hold a factory code/designation besides maybe that of their base model. For example: The Centurion 9A that formed the Yen-Lo-Wang in lore still technically held it's original factory designation by battle computers, but in actuality it instead held a different name outside that designation to determine it was not from a factory. The CN-YLW became a common designation, and what is used in MW:O. By all accounts, our battle computers should register the Yen-Lo-Wang as a CN-9A... Now that could get interesting.

[Cichol Balor]

Tesunie, on 26 December 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

It's lore flavor that has no impact on the game itself.

except it does. there are already plenty of people who don't even like hero 'mechs holding different IDs let alone every variant of a mech. Its hard enough for many casual players to remember the names and abilities of the mechs that hold them as is or are you going to tell me that knowing what a 'mech you're targeting is has no impact on the game

[Tesunie]

Cichol Balor, on 27 December 2018 - 12:58 AM, said:

except it does. there are already plenty of people who don't even like hero 'mechs holding different IDs let alone every variant of a mech. Its hard enough for many casual players to remember the names and abilities of the mechs that hold them as is or are you going to tell me that knowing what a 'mech you're targeting is has no impact on the game

What mech you are targeting has no impact on the game... Except on knowing where their weapons are typically mounted so you can disable the mech sooner... as well as knowing their general hit boxes because you know their shape based off name... and how fast the mech is likely to be moving so you can predict where it might go... Nope. Knowing the mech designations has no impact on the game play...

For the record, I was saying if a mech is called CRS-EBN (For Corsair "Ebon" as an example) or CRS-PRD (for maybe Corsair "Pride") or CRS-EYE (for maybe Corsair "Eyepatch") would not make a difference in the game than if it's labeled CRS-001. The actual names and designations placed into the game are largely irrelevant as long as they are clear.

This thread is only pointing out that the Corsair should not have a factory sounding designation, as it's a cobbled together mech. It should have designations far closer to hero mechs, where they have a short abbreviation of the chassis name (CRS, CSR, COR, etc) with their chassis name shorthanded rather than number/letter designations. A mech from a factory will likely have a number series followed by either more numbers (ASN-101) or a letter (CN-9A). Typically the letter part is an indicator of where the mech was produced or who created the custom. D is for Davion. S for Steiner. Etc. (P sometimes for Piranha Games, hence the ENF-5P.)

In the case of the Corsair, it should have no such designation coding. It should still have display name and combat computer IDs for the game play itself, but what it's specifically called is "irrelevant" for game play, as long as it's distinguishable from other mech IDs. Hence, they shouldn't have numbers so much in their IDs, but names instead if possible.



This thread is a request for something that wont impact the game itself if changed (before the mech's release). However, it's also so minor that I personally may agree with the thread but I do not overly care if it doesn't get changed at the same time. It's a nice nod to lore, but such a small issue that it doesn't bother me either way. Thus, I support the thread, if it isn't a big deal to PGI to change the name. If PGI does not wish to change it, then that's fine for me as well.

PS: I have long felt that Hero mechs should have their base chassis ID tag displayed for ease of identification. Something PGI has been doing as of late. It's a pain to recall what the "Pirates Bane" chassis is, but a LCT-PB is far more clear.

[Cichol Balor]

Tesunie, on 27 December 2018 - 07:31 AM, said:

For the record, I was saying if a mech is called CRS-EBN (For Corsair "Ebon" as an example) or CRS-PRD (for maybe Corsair "Pride") or CRS-EYE (for maybe Corsair "Eyepatch") would not make a difference in the game than if it's labeled CRS-001. The actual names and designations placed into the game are largely irrelevant as long as they are clear.

This thread is only pointing out that the Corsair should not have a factory sounding designation, as it's a cobbled together mech. It should have designations far closer to hero mechs, where they have a short abbreviation of the chassis name (CRS, CSR, COR, etc) with their chassis name shorthanded rather than number/letter designations. A mech from a factory will likely have a number series followed by either more numbers (ASN-101) or a letter (CN-9A). Typically the letter part is an indicator of where the mech was produced or who created the custom. D is for Davion. S for Steiner. Etc. (P sometimes for Piranha Games, hence the ENF-5P.)

In the case of the Corsair, it should have no such designation coding. It should still have display name and combat computer IDs for the game play itself, but what it's specifically called is "irrelevant" for game play, as long as it's distinguishable from other mech IDs. Hence, they shouldn't have numbers so much in their IDs, but names instead if possible.

then yeah that seems fine to me