21 replies to this topic

[War Kitten]

Greetings All,

I have just won a nice, new Orion IIc-A from the loot bag event (yay!), and I am using what came with it: LBX20/SRM6 x 4/FF armor/max eng. (360), and it comes with the Artemus already on it. The txt says it reduces spread by 30%. With it the spread is '5' and with out it is still '5' (no skill points on her yet), without it I gain 10 tons in weight and open up 13 slots to put stuff in, more ammo/heat sinks/wet bar..etc... Unlike streaks, srms don't spread like butter on bread and I can't see much difference when I fire them either way. I know srms are not exact fire weapons like Gauss or lasers, they are more "there's the enemy, boom I hit them, can I get a cookie now?"

Is the Artemus in its current form, (is the key phrase here), worth putting on or does it not currently matter much and I am better off with the extra weight/slots?

Thank you all for any help,

War Kitten

[War Kitten]

slight correction...I know i didn't gain the whole 10 tons, (the system takes off the srms when you switch), but I still gain weight/slots so the question remains the same.

thanks

War Kitten

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Artemis does reduce the spread, but the reduction may not display properly in mechlab. It does make a difference- especially with SRM6. You may not be able to perceive it in the heat of an engagement- instead, take the 'Mech into testing grounds, pick a big target (like the static Atlas or Awesome), and fire from various ranges. You will see a greater number of missiles hit on or near your point of aim with Artemis than without, and having the upgrade often makes the difference between a shot hitting somewhere and missing entirely towards the edge of SRM range.

I'd recommend keeping it, especially on that build. The engine the ON1-IIC-A(C) build comes with is already the largest the variant can mount, and it already has enough heat sinks and ammo to sustain it through a fight; the four tons for Artemis won't really give you any significant edge anywhere (you could add a pair of lasers, I guess, but the loss in missile accuracy would end up giving you the same damage-on-target for worse heat efficiency). That's one of the few Champion builds that can truly be called ready to drive out of the box.

[Mister Maf]

If you can fit it, I strongly recommend using Artemis for SRM6s. It's not obvious up front, but it makes a big difference in practice for focusing damage to one component instead of splashing it all over the target's body — especially combined with the missile spread skill nodes. LRM20s and 15s benefit a lot from this too when you use them for direct fire.

SRM4s and 2s don't really need Artemis or the missile spread nodes as their groupings are generally sufficiently tight enough and their advantage is their lower weight.

[Chris Lowrey]

So I see this question come up a bit from time to time regarding why the Mechlab doesn't track the boost to the Artemis spread when you have it equipped.

While others in this thread have correctly stated that the Artemis does indeed provide a boost to the missiles, I wanted to poke in and explain the reason why it is not displayed in the 'Mechlab tool tips and that is because the boost received from Artemis is not a permanent boost, but a conditional one. In order to receive the boost, you must:

• Have direct LOS to the target (more for LRM's than for SRMs)
  
• Not under a "Low signal" state from enemy ECM.

Because the benefits granted by Artemis are conditional, the core SRM spread values on the weapon still remain the same despite having Artemis equipped, but if you meet the conditions to receive the benefits of Artemis in-match, you will gain the boosts provided by the equipment.

The same is true for other equipment that behaves on a conditional level such as Targeting Computers. The benefits of Targeting computers would not be displayed in the 'Mechlab because the targeting computer only boosts the baseline attributes of the equipment while it is functional. If it is destroyed mid-match, the weapons values will utilize the values that are visible in the 'Mechlab.

[JD Wack]

"The same is true for other equipment that behaves on a conditional level such as Targeting Computers. The benefits of Targeting computers would not be displayed in the 'Mechlab because the targeting computer only boosts the baseline attributes of the equipment while it is functional. If it is destroyed mid-match, the weapons values will utilize the values that are visible in the 'Mechlab." (I'm not sure how to use that fancy quoting system, I know exists in the forum. So I quoted Chris Lowrey the old fashioned way using copy/paste)

I have noticed this! Although I didn't realize the bonusses actually do apply but instead have opted to leave out the computer in the few instances it didn't have an impact I could read in the stats. It's great to know that it do have an effect equal to the percentages given and I get the reasoning why they don't read - but I wish it could be changed to display the bonusses even so, because it's nice to see what the percentage given, translates into with a specific weapon. Maybe there's a way to do this, but then I'm not aware of it.

[TheCaptainJZ]

JD Whack, on 04 January 2019 - 12:07 PM, said:

(I'm not sure how to use that fancy quoting system, I know exists in the forum. So I quoted Chris Lowrey the old fashioned way using copy/paste)

Press the quote button on the post. It will put a bracket tag in front of and after the quoted text in the preview window below and you can edit in-between the quote to remove unnecessary bits for example. Just make sure to leave the bracketed lines in place.

[-Natural Selection-]

Chris Lowrey, on 04 January 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

So I see this question come up a bit from time to time regarding why the Mechlab doesn't track the boost to the Artemis spread when you have it equipped.

While others in this thread have correctly stated that the Artemis does indeed provide a boost to the missiles, I wanted to poke in and explain the reason why it is not displayed in the 'Mechlab tool tips and that is because the boost received from Artemis is not a permanent boost, but a conditional one. In order to receive the boost, you must:

• Have direct LOS to the target (more for LRM's than for SRMs)
  
• Not under a "Low signal" state from enemy ECM.

Because the benefits granted by Artemis are conditional, the core SRM spread values on the weapon still remain the same despite having Artemis equipped, but if you meet the conditions to receive the benefits of Artemis in-match, you will gain the boosts provided by the equipment.


The same is true for other equipment that behaves on a conditional level such as Targeting Computers. The benefits of Targeting computers would not be displayed in the 'Mechlab because the targeting computer only boosts the baseline attributes of the equipment while it is functional. If it is destroyed mid-match, the weapons values will utilize the values that are visible in the 'Mechlab.

Have you ever played this game? Just wondering, lets drop sometime.

[justcallme A S H]

Chris Lowrey, on 04 January 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

• Have direct LOS to the target (more for LRM's than for SRMs)
  
• Not under a "Low signal" state from enemy ECM.

Ah Chris...

So if you fire in LoS but target drops out of LoS - What happens then?

I mean low signal, for brawlers, losing the Artemis benefit means Artemis is even more useless than it is after the Artemis nerf-patch a few months back far as I understand it.

[justcallme A S H]

Additonally a single ECM mech - offensive wise - cancels any enemy mech Artemis if it is within ECM range??? (ie, 4+ mechs simply from ECM)

Edited by justcallme A S H, 05 January 2019 - 04:43 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

justcallme A S H, on 05 January 2019 - 04:40 AM, said:

Additonally a single ECM mech - offensive wise - cancels any enemy mech Artemis if it is within ECM range??? (ie, 4+ mechs simply from ECM)

Yup, this goes both ways, tho.
Additionally a BAP might help, or a counter ECM, or a UAV or any PPC hit.
(Or just knock the whole ECM out, including the 'mech.)

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 05 January 2019 - 09:15 AM.

[Koniving]

Well this increases the value of bringing an active probe in a mixed Streak + SRM-and-Artemis setup.

And while surprising to learn that it does matter (I expected the lazy route here), I'm happy that it does as it adds to the counter play (and explains why my ECM-totting brawlers have withstood so well against the classic AC/20 + triple SRM-6-and-Artemis Atlases over the years).
In tabletop, short of some complex camouflage rules, ECM only actually provided an anti-missile enhancement measure and pretty much nothing else. Course, SRMs and SRM+Artemis aren't lock dependent but they aren't supposed to be 'dumb' either as they're kinda depicted in MWO, so perhaps this would matter more if the missiles actually tried (even if barely) to home in on a target moving from left to right.

Course, the whole issue of "zomg ECM at 120 meters is gonna neuter mah missiles" is easily resolved; bam PPC. SRM-away. Carry an active probe. Bring a tag (though without homing ability in SRMs that's kinda pointless... at face value).

Though this goes to show something else; partial fluff/lore/rule adherence is terrible.
Artemis against ECM rules kept (which is nice), but then the very core of what Artemis is, a targeting system that instead of having the missiles track on their own (aka fire and forget, like SRMs and LRMs are supposed to be), uses the processing power of the equipment to enhance their ability to track a target (SRMs and LRMs using the launching mech to track the target for them with greater accuracy and less error when the enemy mech pulls the Matrix Neo dodge), has always been completely lost on MWO...because SRMs don't track period, and LRMs rely on the launching mech for lock-tracking regardless.

(To elaborate on fire and forget, think a Stinger versus a Javelin).
(Stinger; you acquire a lock, you fire. That's it, feel free to move on with your life. The missile will do the rest within its ability.)
(Javelin: You acquire a lock from something that is painted [and since we're talking about Artemis, you're painting it too]. You must continue to feed that point to the missile for the entire duration of its flight, or at least until you are satisfied it will land regardless. The moment you stop feeding it, it reverts to something akin to a regular SRM/LRM that was fired and forgotten.)
(An SRM doesn't and shouldn't need a lock per-sé, but it does function better with one akin to how LRMs don't need locks to fire at a stationary point, but they function better with a lock.)
The way SRMs are depicted in MWO, aside from this little quirk about spread with Artemis, we may as well just say they are "Dead-Fire" missiles loaded into our SRMs and be done with it.
From Dead-Fire: "To reduce cost, the guidance systems of standard long range and short range missiles were removed and replaced with larger warheads."

Edited by Koniving, 05 January 2019 - 10:53 AM.

[Chris Lowrey]

justcallme A S H, on 05 January 2019 - 03:52 AM, said:

So if you fire in LoS but target drops out of LoS - What happens then?

It's based off of when the volley fires. So in the case of LRM's, if you have direct LOS when you fire the volley, you will gain it's benefit, even if you or your target drops into cover while the missiles are mid-flight.

SRM's fire is always based on LOS, so in that case, the Low Signal ECM is all you would have to look out for.

[justcallme A S H]

Chris Lowrey, on 06 January 2019 - 08:56 PM, said:

It's based off of when the volley fires. So in the case of LRM's, if you have direct LOS when you fire the volley, you will gain it's benefit, even if you or your target drops into cover while the missiles are mid-flight.

SRM's fire is always based on LOS, so in that case, the Low Signal ECM is all you would have to look out for.

Well often I regularly fire outside of LoS because I know where my enemy will be - IE. Faster moving mech with the benefit of the 'target spotted' mechanic.

Thanks for the clarification on that, interesting to know.

[Navid A1]

Chris Lowrey, on 06 January 2019 - 08:56 PM, said:

It's based off of when the volley fires. So in the case of LRM's, if you have direct LOS when you fire the volley, you will gain it's benefit, even if you or your target drops into cover while the missiles are mid-flight.

SRM's fire is always based on LOS, so in that case, the Low Signal ECM is all you would have to look out for.

So... what happens when you fire SRMs with artemis at a target that is not locked?

[Chris Lowrey]

Navid A1, on 06 January 2019 - 09:26 PM, said:

So... what happens when you fire SRMs with artemis at a target that is not locked?

Artemis only needs LOS and not being in a low signal state in order to provide it's benefits. You do not need locks in order to receive the spread boost.

This goes both for SRM's and even for dead-fired LRM's.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

A few more questions:

1. If you are locked on a target you do not have LOS to, and then fire your missiles at a different 'Mech which you do have LOS to, without a target lock on that 'Mech... would the game know that you were firing at the second 'Mech and apply the Artemis buff, or would it assume based on the target lock that you were firing on the first 'Mech and not give you the Artemis buff?

2. If you fire your missiles at a target you have LOS to, which then breaks LOS before your missiles impact, will the spread of missiles already in flight be affected (losing the Artemis buff, and spreading out more before impact), or will LOS loss only affect the next salvo you fire?

Just looking for clarification. This is great info so far.

Info that should, perhaps, be included in the game somewhere?

[Aidan Crenshaw]

1. Nigh-impossible setup, because LRMs are the only lock-on weapon that benefit from Artemis. And the missiles home in on the locked target.
2. As Chris said, the buff is based off when the volley is fired.

[justcallme A S H]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 07 January 2019 - 10:29 PM, said:

A few more questions:

1. If you are locked on a target you do not have LOS to, and then fire your missiles at a different 'Mech which you do have LOS to, without a target lock on that 'Mech... would the game know that you were firing at the second 'Mech and apply the Artemis buff, or would it assume based on the target lock that you were firing on the first 'Mech and not give you the Artemis buff?

2. If you fire your missiles at a target you have LOS to, which then breaks LOS before your missiles impact, will the spread of missiles already in flight be affected (losing the Artemis buff, and spreading out more before impact), or will LOS loss only affect the next salvo you fire?

1. Artemis would work - it's about where your reticule is not what mech you have targeted.

2. Artemis would work - that was covered above. Long as you fire in LoS, you get +A bonus.

[Mechwarrior 37]

Chris Lowrey, on 04 January 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

So I see this question come up a bit from time to time regarding why the Mechlab doesn't track the boost to the Artemis spread when you have it equipped.

While others in this thread have correctly stated that the Artemis does indeed provide a boost to the missiles, I wanted to poke in and explain the reason why it is not displayed in the 'Mechlab tool tips and that is because the boost received from Artemis is not a permanent boost, but a conditional one. In order to receive the boost, you must:

• Have direct LOS to the target (more for LRM's than for SRMs)
  
• Not under a "Low signal" state from enemy ECM.

Because the benefits granted by Artemis are conditional, the core SRM spread values on the weapon still remain the same despite having Artemis equipped, but if you meet the conditions to receive the benefits of Artemis in-match, you will gain the boosts provided by the equipment.


The same is true for other equipment that behaves on a conditional level such as Targeting Computers. The benefits of Targeting computers would not be displayed in the 'Mechlab because the targeting computer only boosts the baseline attributes of the equipment while it is functional. If it is destroyed mid-match, the weapons values will utilize the values that are visible in the 'Mechlab.

OMGosh. Thanks for coming down and explaining things!