97 replies to this topic

[Icaza]

I looked at the cockpit model for the hunchback and I honestly think it's awesome. I love that they had the audacity to have the autocannon create a blindspot on the right. I actually hope to see more of that. It will be hard to get off a headshot on a hunchback from the left because there's a big hunk of metal screening the cockpit. Are there any other designs you can think of that have severe blind spots? What hud technology other than a "radar dot" will be available to offset the blind spots? Will it be able to be damaged in combat? Look at a mech like the Fire Scorpion. The cockpit model would look really cool with the big mandibles.

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Cameras. Periscopes.

If tanks can do it, 'Mechs can too.

[Hayden]

Icaza, on 25 December 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:

I looked at the cockpit model for the hunchback and I honestly think it's awesome. I love that they had the audacity to have the autocannon create a blindspot on the right. I actually hope to see more of that. It will be hard to get off a headshot on a hunchback from the left because there's a big hunk of metal screening the cockpit. Are there any other designs you can think of that have severe blind spots? What hud technology other than a "radar dot" will be available to offset the blind spots? Will it be able to be damaged in combat? Look at a mech like the Fire Scorpion. The cockpit model would look really cool with the big mandibles.

They do have those "monitors" on the sides of the hunchbacks' cockpit. Maybe we'll see things like that?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeah, I like that they are FINALLY giving the mech a cockpit instead of a screen that your supposed to imagine is the cockpit. MW3 was cool in that it gave mechs cockpits as well. MW2 was aight, givin the tech they had to work with at the time but MW4...what were they thinking? Half the mechs you just get a reticule and an open screen. I found it soooooo boring to be in first person view in that game. If it didnt have 3rd person mode incorporated so well into that game I would have gotten so bored with that game haha. Yeah, I liked the Hunchback cockpit screenie they showed. It will be AWESOME to be in cockpit view now.

[Kenyon Burguess]

i like the archer. It's unique in that its cockpit is located beneath the central torso. i think that would make for a really different experience to drive

[feor]

The Archer's a wierd one, their are pictures of it with the cockpit in the "Nose" of the mech, and there are pictures where the cockpit's on to of the mech (like the Vulture).

For mechs with blind spots, there's not alot of them. There's plenty with limited fields of view, like the Awesome, or big shoulder pauldron type guards, like the Charger/Hatamoto.

Though this line of questioning does lead me to another thought: WIll they implement turning heads for the truly humanoid mechs? The Atlas might have a turning head, but something like a Grasshopper, Banshee, or Shadowhawk is supposed to have a fully articulated neck on them. Would be one more layer of awesome realism if they do.

[Larry Headrick]

Wrong forum.
Don't know how that happend.

Edited by Larry Headrick, 25 December 2011 - 09:46 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

No Mech has a blind spot, they all have 360 degree views compressed into 160 degrees, so the actual physical Mech designs don't take a pilot's view out the of cockpit into account. Plus there's a number of Mechs that don't actually HAVE any way to look directly out of the cockpit. Most Mechs with actual necks and heads, the heads aren't mobile, no turning. Again, pilots don't look out of the cockpit via viewports, it's through a very sophisticated HUD that's built into the neurohelmet. Otherwise, they'd be blinded, literally and permanently the first time they got into combat

The Hunchback cockpit concept art we've been shown is great though, I love how the cockpit looks, I hope they follow that line with all of the Mechs and that we get to SEE that ingame. It doesn't have the 360 into 160 view going on(thank the gods) but you can clearly see the left/right views on the two side screens, love that.

[Duke Pitt]

This may sound ridiculous but just where is the cockpit on a Wolverine? And I mean the classically drawn version that has guns coming out of its face. Because I have looked long and hard at that without figuring it out.

[guardiandashi]

looking at my copy of 3025 I can see 2 likely locations for the cockpit (based on how the art usually had blacked in cockpit windows)

location 1 in the assembly above and behind the ball turret, with the 2 antenna on it

location 2 behind the chest plate immediately above the waist rotation ring, in the "wedged" section, there is a spot in the front that looks like a common "gundam" cockpit extrusion point with possible "window" plates one on either side

http://www.sarna.net...ine_(BattleMech)

I am looking at the 3 large solid black sections
these are my "best guesses"

[feor]

Quote

This may sound ridiculous but just where is the cockpit on a Wolverine? And I mean the classically drawn version that has guns coming out of its face. Because I have looked long and hard at that without figuring it out.

My guess is behind the face guns, since it's supposed to be a head mounted laser IIRC.

Quote

Plus there's a number of Mechs that don't actually HAVE any way to look directly out of the cockpit.

The number of mechs without cockpit windows are extremely rare, the only one I can think of it the original Marauder. Some only have small vision slits as opposed to the kind of glass wall you get on the Hunchback, but most of them have some kind of viewport.

Quote

Most Mechs with actual necks and heads, the heads aren't mobile, no turning. Again, pilots don't look out of the cockpit via viewports, it's through a very sophisticated HUD that's built into the neurohelmet.

That's blatantly wrong. Just looking at mechs in TRO 3025revised and a quick browse through Sarna disproves that easily.

A list of mechs with heads from 3025r, links to pictures of their heads swiveled when available
Commando
Mongoose
Hermes
Javelin
Spider
Firestarter
Panther
Clint
Hermes II
Whitworth
Hatchetman
Vindicator
Wyvern
Centurion
Enforcer
Trebuchet
Dervish
Kintaro
Lancelot
Quickdraw
Grasshopper
Black Knight
Charger
Victor
Cyclops
Highlander
Banshee
Atlas

so of 29 mechs with distinct heads, there are 6 for which I can't easily provide graphical evidence that their heads can swivel. I'd say that proves that articulated heads are fairly common.

Quote

Otherwise, they'd be blinded, literally and permanently the first time they got into combat

No, the cockpit glass and the faceplate of the neurohelmet are both able to polarize almost instantaneously. If a mech gets hit in the face with a laser the pilot's view goes black for a moment as both devices polarize oppositely (blacking out vision completely to save the pilot's eyes). Someone in the cockpit without a helmet on will be temporarily blinded (similarly to staring into the sun for a couple moments) but will recover in fairly short order.

Edited by feor, 26 December 2011 - 08:06 AM.

[Grithis]

feor, on 26 December 2011 - 08:06 AM, said:

No, the cockpit glass and the faceplate of the neurohelmet are both able to polarize almost instantaneously. If a mech gets hit in the face with a laser the pilot's view goes black for a moment as both devices polarize oppositely (blacking out vision completely to save the pilot's eyes). Someone in the cockpit without a helmet on will be temporarily blinded (similarly to staring into the sun for a couple moments) but will recover in fairly short order.

I know someone is going to refute this, at some point, so I'll give another referance. A welders' faceshield polarizes in the same way. Almost clear beforehand, severely shadowed the very instant you begin welding. A thousand years into the future, I don't think it's asking too much for this technology to be implimented in military grade hardware.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Going by the artwork...you can't fit a pilot in a lot of those machines, not if you ALWAYS put the cockpit in the head..which, btw, they don't, the novels cover that, trying to remember which Mech it was..Wasp I think, the pilot actually stands up in the Mech, body and legs in the chest section, head up into the head of the Mech itself..just one of the references that really stuck with me over the years, because the head popped up and tilted back so the pilot could climb out while the chest section opened up. Not the only such Mech in the novels to be described as having the cockpit not being soley in the head, some aren't in the head at all. The Marauder is ONE of the Mechs without any actual viewports, again, you can't go by the artwork, as it tends to almost ALWAYS show what people think are viewports, regardless of the Mech design. Same with turning heads in the artwork..why would you turn the head? Weapons mounted on the head are small and have their own aiming mechanisms and can ONLY fire into the forward arc, turning the head isn't allowed in TT. The pilot doesn't LOOK out of any viewports while driving the Mech, so turning the head again serves no function at all. Artwork is just that..artwork, it's not always the best actual representation of the machine being shown.

Also, keep this in mind when looking at the Mechs, especially any of them prior to the FASA/HG legal bs. Most of them weren't actually drawn AS Mechs, they were artwork of robots, man sized battle armors, or just plain taken from something else(the Unseen anyone?), they were NOT drawn with the intention of BEING a Mech, the configurations in the TROs weren't used as the basis for the artwork..the configurations were designed to fit the artwork already finished. Not to mention that most of the Mechs prior to 3025 were designed for use with a neurohelmet that did NOT allow the wearing to see out of it at all, they had a HUD that provided the ONLY visual information the pilot received. You really don't see that represented in the artwork at all if you look at all the Mechs with what look like big cockpit canopies.

When MW2 was released, one of the devs replied when asked about the Marauder IICs cockpit viewport that he knew it wasn't SUPPOSED to have that, but the players in testing didn't LIKE not having it so it was added. Not the only Mech in MW2 like that..and it is a trend that all the MW titles have followed. The PLAYERS want a cockpit they can see out of, no matter HOW stupid such a design is on a machine designed for direct combat using really big guns and even melee.

[guardiandashi]

actually the marauder DOES have a viewport ... its inside the box at the front to the torso. The thing is that the cockpit is well back in the torso from the viewport ... slightly in front of the arm attachment points, so the marauder pilot is actually looking through a "tunnel" to look out the front viewport

[Stahlseele]

I vote for the cyclops being in the game and modeled exactly the way it's described!
Imagine the kind of RAAAGEEE you could incite after suffering a "Headshot" and still walking and fighting back ^^

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I just hope all mechs have a head area that we can aim at and hit! hasn't always been the case in other games

[Strum Wealh]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 December 2011 - 03:08 PM, said:

Going by the artwork...you can't fit a pilot in a lot of those machines, not if you ALWAYS put the cockpit in the head..which, btw, they don't, the novels cover that, trying to remember which Mech it was..Wasp I think, the pilot actually stands up in the Mech, body and legs in the chest section, head up into the head of the Mech itself..just one of the references that really stuck with me over the years, because the head popped up and tilted back so the pilot could climb out while the chest section opened up. Not the only such Mech in the novels to be described as having the cockpit not being soley in the head, some aren't in the head at all. The Marauder is ONE of the Mechs without any actual viewports, again, you can't go by the artwork, as it tends to almost ALWAYS show what people think are viewports, regardless of the Mech design. Same with turning heads in the artwork..why would you turn the head? Weapons mounted on the head are small and have their own aiming mechanisms and can ONLY fire into the forward arc, turning the head isn't allowed in TT. The pilot doesn't LOOK out of any viewports while driving the Mech, so turning the head again serves no function at all. Artwork is just that..artwork, it's not always the best actual representation of the machine being shown.

Well, there was the torso-mounted cockpit developed by the FedCom in 3044 (with the related artwork being as described).
(The TMC experiment was cancelled in 3054, but it became popular with 'Mechs designed for the Solaris arenas in 3055.)

Also, for the record, the canon describes the Cyclops' cockpit as being in the head, behind the "sophisticated holographic Tacticon B-2000 battle computer".

As for the original/Unseen Marauder... the issue is that having the pilot seated well within the torso is how the Roiquonmi Glaug battlepod that served as the design's basis was set up and depicted. As such, the body shape was pretty much unable to account for any other seating arrangement.

Moreover (from the Cyclops article linked above):

Quote

Though the Cyclops' head section is armored as heavily as its internal structure can handle, the armor is somewhat inadequate. In battle situations, most enemy 'Mechs will automatically aim at the head of the Cyclops, knowing any hits or near misses could damage or disable the sophisticated command and control equipment located there, as well as doing the usual damage to the MechWarrior inside.

----------

Many pilots also provide their Cyclops with false armor head protectors, which gives them the appearance of wearing a helmet. The rationale is that incoming missile and autocannon fire will explode against the false armor instead of the actual head armor. This is, at best, a poor solution to the problem.

----------

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 December 2011 - 03:08 PM, said:

Also, keep this in mind when looking at the Mechs, especially any of them prior to the FASA/HG legal bs. Most of them weren't actually drawn AS Mechs, they were artwork of robots, man sized battle armors, or just plain taken from something else(the Unseen anyone?), they were NOT drawn with the intention of BEING a Mech, the configurations in the TROs weren't used as the basis for the artwork..the configurations were designed to fit the artwork already finished. Not to mention that most of the Mechs prior to 3025 were designed for use with a neurohelmet that did NOT allow the wearing to see out of it at all, they had a HUD that provided the ONLY visual information the pilot received. You really don't see that represented in the artwork at all if you look at all the Mechs with what look like big cockpit canopies.

When MW2 was released, one of the devs replied when asked about the Marauder IICs cockpit viewport that he knew it wasn't SUPPOSED to have that, but the players in testing didn't LIKE not having it so it was added. Not the only Mech in MW2 like that..and it is a trend that all the MW titles have followed. The PLAYERS want a cockpit they can see out of, no matter HOW stupid such a design is on a machine designed for direct combat using really big guns and even melee.

I hereby cite Rule of Cool.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Cite it all you want Strum, doesn't change the fact that NO Mech has a blind spot, you don't look out of the cockpit canopy, and the designs, as cool as some of them are..and lets face it, the Timberwolf and Atlas are both just..well..the embodiments of the Rule of Cool, weren't always what they were turned into by FASA, so you can't point at the artwork and go 'aha!, see that, cockpit glass!' cause it ain't so.

FASA never worried about the issue, after all, TT rules don't allow the head to turn, so it doesn't matter. Pilots in TT don't look out of the Mech, they are watching the HUD inside the neurohelmet, and there's no blind spots without ECM being involved or sensor damage. Head shots were head shots regardless of what the Mech's design was, take out the head and it's a dead Mech..even if it had no head(Marauder!) and in some cases, like the Catapult, where it's cockpit WAS the entire front profile of the Mech, you STILL had to roll to hit the head, even if the ONLY line of fire you had could ONLY hit that big cockpit canopy. TT game with rules that ignored what was physically represented.

And..ya know..that torso cockpit bit..that's some FUNNY stuff! Just look at some of the Mechs and tell me how they do NOT put the cockpits dead center of the torso...Catapult..Timberwolf...Dire Wolf...Archer...shall I continue? FASA had Mechs with torso mounted cockpits from the start after all..Archers being in Battledroids after all For the TT rules, that didn't matter, the 'head' was where the cockpit was located and it was made weak and easy to take out with a lucky shot for the cool factor...'head shot!'...it really has nothing to do with WHERE the cockpit is physically located.

[pewnjeff]

I found that in MW4 I was constantly in third person because of the horrendous cockpit views. Glad to see that is (hopefully) not the case with MWO.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

ok, so if pilots are looking only through huds and not any sort of glass plating (which is what you, Kristov,
suggest) then what are those black panels on the mech heads and cockpits in the TRO art?

cause to me, and many here and I think to the designers as well; that's canopy glass, pal. Now why
would they have canopy glass if the pilot didn't see through it? it is obviously a glaring design flaw
then. So all these mechs now have these unarmored panels of glass...for no reason? What about
a mech like the Timber Wolf or Vulture (which are more obvious examples of it). Explain to me the
reasoning behind making the cockpit of a mech the front of a B-29 bomber complete with glass
paneling if there was never any need of said glass.

Even back in the 80's if designers wanted to make mechs that did not use glass paneling, they could -
the idea was there and the designs would have reflected that
we would have ended up with something like this:
http://flyingdebris....F22908607&qo=19
taken from the resident MWO artist master himself.
as opposed to this:
http://flyingdebris....F22908607&qo=27

now I will use one of my favorite mechs of all time, the zeus
http://www.sarna.net...:3025_Zeus1.jpg
even in black-and-white print, we can guess that the cockpit is glass. All other other panels are drawn white with black outlines, while the panels where the cockpit is, are all black. If one was using cameras and huds, and only cameras and huds to see out of, the panels on the cockpit would be white like other armor panels. Then on top of these cockpit armor panels, there would be something drawn to indicate cameras or some other form of electronics. that we see in this example is, the black is supposed to represent glass, in a two tone system, the white is used to fill space ie armor panels, the black is used to indicate empty space or the idea of empty space ie glass canopy.

Now when it comes to field of view, unless your boxy, bulky, and generally small neurohelmet represents a globe of 360degs, you will have blind spots. One more thing about field of view is head tracking or eye tracking. The mechwarrior is given 360deg inside of 160 but have you ever seen that represented visually? You wouldn’t want to look at it because it would just be a jumble of vertical lines. The more plausible solution is; you have 90degrees of normal vision and 60degrees condensed; which is rotatable depending on where your head/eyes are looking. Even then you don’t get that much visual information from those remaining 60 degrees, you would only get a few misshapen outlines equal to the ‘out-of-the-corner-of-your-eye’ feeling.

In essence, the mechwarrior actually gains more visual clarity with the cockpit glass canopy design, than the pure 360 condensed design. Another thing to note, the mechwarrior doesn’t need to see behind him/her all the time – that is what radar is for, a target behind you is a target behind regardless of what else is back there as well. I think MWO does it right with screens around the cockpit to give that extension to the field of view.

Final notes on this; battletech is written very much like neo-medieval and mechwarriors are like knights, thus the early designs (esp. the human-esque ones) are akin to massive suits of armor which like their small versions, have vision slots regardless of cameras and huds. As for head swiveling? Why not? Dozens of people here have already established that MWO will not be the video game version of the TT; so that rules out having to say: “well the TT doesn’t cover head swivel….so no other interpretation should either!”

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 27 December 2011 - 07:24 AM.