97 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

We already covered the visual sensor feeds..that's BTech Physics at work, like so much in BTech, there's nothing technical about it, FASA decided THIS is how it works, so, THIS is how it works. You keep trying to bring realism into it and the next thing you know, people are wondering why nothing in BTech fits with reality as we know it.

Some Mechs have NO canopy, there's no arguing it, it's a fact, established in the lore and canon, can't view the outside from them short of opening the hatch if your sensors are gone. Others have obviously HUGE canopies in clear violation of logic and design. THAT doesn't matter.

Look at the new artwork of the Hunchback..exterior view clearly shows a NON-clear cockpit canopy, it's covered by metal shutters, obviously opaque. Interior view by the SAME artist shows that those shutters don't show up on the inside, it looks like you are looking out of glass, OBVIOUSLY an electronic device is showing that image, really nice way of giving both a logical Mech design AND the aesthetics of looking out of the cockpit. NO blind spots, that's all, BTech canon and lore is clear on that, the only blind spots on a Mech are caused by ECM and ECM only effects NON-VISUAL systems at the time of MWO. ECM that works on visual systems of a Mech will be coming in 3061 or so. It's lore and canon, one thing PGI has been clear they aren't going to muck about with, so no blind spots on my Mech, thank you very much.

[Escef]

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 December 2011 - 08:27 PM, said:

Look at the new artwork of the Hunchback..exterior view clearly shows a NON-clear cockpit canopy, it's covered by metal shutters, obviously opaque. Interior view by the SAME artist shows that those shutters don't show up on the inside, it looks like you are looking out of glass, OBVIOUSLY an electronic device is showing that image, really nice way of giving both a logical Mech design AND the aesthetics of looking out of the cockpit. NO blind spots, that's all, BTech canon and lore is clear on that, the only blind spots on a Mech are caused by ECM and ECM only effects NON-VISUAL systems at the time of MWO. ECM that works on visual systems of a Mech will be coming in 3061 or so. It's lore and canon, one thing PGI has been clear they aren't going to muck about with, so no blind spots on my Mech, thank you very much.

That's funny, because when I look at the art for the inside of the cockpit the right hand side of the view is dominated by the muzzle of the mechs own autocannon. Yeah... No blind spot there... /facepalm

[Xhaleon]

Escef, on 29 December 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:

It isn't ridiculous if your sensors are off-line and there's junk on your canopy from the face-plant you did after you took a hit in one of your leg actuators. Screwed up stuff happens.

No, I meant wiping the canopy with your boxers or tree leaves is ridiculous. I believe that simple window wipers are the norm, laser window wipers if you want to get fancy; you just don't get to see them in any of the previous games. Or maybe MWO too, but we'll have to see how detailed they're making the game.

And if you have window wipers, you can have them on camera lenses too. Getting caked in dust is one thing, getting shot is another. The former can be equally easily solved for both types, but the latter greatly favors those who put a thick layer of solid ferro-fibrous in front of their face.

For Kristov:
I did say at the beginning of this conversation that I am only arguing about realism // practicality as food for thought, and that I still appreciate Battletech for being aesthetically unique in having canopy cockpits for all. Maybe I didn't specify that last part clearly. You are referring to me, right?

Edited by Xhaleon, 29 December 2011 - 08:38 PM.

[Escef]

Xhaleon, on 29 December 2011 - 08:34 PM, said:

No, I meant wiping the canopy with your boxers or tree leaves is ridiculous. I believe that simple window wipers are the norm, laser window wipers if you want to get fancy, you just don't get to see them in any of the previous games. Or maybe MWO too, but we'll have to see how detailed they're making the game.

I recall driving around on FOB Warhorse during the winter. The wet season. I recall having to lower the window on the up-armored HMMWV I was driving to wipe mud off the windshield. Because all the wiper was doing was smearing it around.

Seriously, sometimes the only solution is good, old-fashioned elbow grease (i.e., removing the obstruction by hand). Maybe the whatever you use to clear the windshield creates a bigger problem. Like my example with mud. Or if you use a laser to clear the windshield it might just leave carbon stains all over it.

The universe is a strange place, crazy things happen.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Escaf..look at the right hand side of the cockpit..see the monitor screen showing the view on the right...psst..there's one on the LEFT side too...since you obviously missed them.

Xhaleon..not really, it's just, canonically speaking, no Mech has a blind spot when it comes to visually spotting an enemy due to the physical design of the Mechs. Why..doesn't matter, it's a BTech Physics thing, there's no explanation for the tech involved, it just IS..so sayeth FASA. Like LRMs only being able to reach and touch someone at 1k..when the game was brand new, our missiles could reach and touch someone at hundreds of miles..and so on..BTech Physics..it's a game play device, much like plot devices, logic and science and common sense are NOT to be applied.

[Escef]

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 December 2011 - 08:57 PM, said:

Escaf..look at the right hand side of the cockpit..see the monitor screen showing the view on the right...psst..there's one on the LEFT side too...since you obviously missed them.

You obviously missed the part on the right hand side not covered by that monitor. Y'know, the monitor I saw? Which apparently you did too? Yeah, look slightly forward of that. There's a blind spot. It's not huge, but it's there. That blind spot also covers a good part of the sky, an ASF coming in could take advantage of it, too. (Not that I'm expecting ASFs in MWO, but someone perched on a building or hill could take advantage of it.)

Yeah, your radar will let you know something's there, but simple human nature will make you more inclined to ignore it over a more visible threat.

Edited by Escef, 29 December 2011 - 09:06 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Maybe YOUR human nature will make you ignore the sensor data..me, having played all the BTech computer games to date, I look at my sensor data first, visual confirmation second. Having played other FPS style games with sensor data on the HUD, it's a habit you cultivate, especially when terrain is a factor and LoS is limited or blocked totally.

And you missed my point..the monitors on the left/right sides show the view that's not visible in the canopy display..clear continuations of the view shown in it, so anything coming in left/right will be shown..not blocked even though the view out of the cockpit IS blocked by the physical design of the Mech.

[Escef]

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 December 2011 - 09:11 PM, said:

And you missed my point...

No, I didn't.

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 December 2011 - 09:11 PM, said:

...the monitors on the left/right sides show the view that's not visible in the canopy display..clear continuations of the view shown in it, so anything coming in left/right will be shown..not blocked even though the view out of the cockpit IS blocked by the physical design of the Mech.

Look at the art. Look at it right now. There is an obvious blind spot directly above the right hand control stick. Plain as day. The blind spot extends upward from there, almost the full height of your battlefield view. It also extends to the right over the monitor you spoke of.

[Dr Duke]

Escef, yes we all see what you mean that there is a blindspot in the canopy, but i believe what kristov is saying is not that the blind spot isnt there, hes saying that the monitor just below it is giving an electronically corrected view that shows everything the muzzle of the gun would be covering in the canopy view, so that while yes, technically there is a blindspot in the view through the glass, there is no blind spot in the pilots vision since anything blocked by that gun is shown on that little monitor.

[feor]

WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL ARGUING ABOUT THIS!

we have established:

1) Battletech materials science is far beyond ours, the cockpit glass of a battlemech is functionally no different in terms of tensile and compressive strength than armour. "So why don't they cover the whole mech in it?" Cause you're just going to paint it with camouflage anyways, so why make it transparent?

2) NO ONE in this thread thinks having 360degree camera and sensor coverage is a bad idea. If anyone disagrees they can report to medbay 6 for a psychological evaluation and a severe beating with a trout.

3) MOST PEOPLE, including people who have actually served in military vehicles (thank you Escef, both for you knowledge and service) think that it's a stupid idea to rely exclusively on sensors. Especially when there's no practical vulnerability created by making part of the mech transparent. Modern military designers tend to agree with them since everything from M1A1 to the F-22 to the Arleigh Burke class naval destroyer still have windows of some sort. The only military vehicle I can think of that doesn't have windows are submarines, because they're underwater with nothing to see most of the time anyways.

And to say "well, if they can make the cockpit so tough, they can make the cameras just as tough" is all well and good, but we're not just talking about the cameras. We'd also be talking about all the electronics between the camera and the pilot. If you get shot in the shoulder by a gauss rifle, and all the wires from the right hand cameras to the cockpit get severed on your hunchback, you will be a considerable disadvantage as compared to a Catapult or Jenner where the pilot can just turn his head to the right and look out the cockpit at what he's missing. Plus add on the fluff where an incautious pilot is almost as likely to take out its own electronics as the enemy is (several novels from the succession wars era talk about mechs getting hot enough in the core of the mech that they literally melt their own silicon circuit boards) and having that backup canopy makes even more sense.

Edited by feor, 30 December 2011 - 07:09 AM.

[Ursus_Spiritus]

feor, on 30 December 2011 - 07:07 AM, said:

WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL ARGUING ABOUT THIS!

we have established:

1) Battletech materials science is far beyond ours, the cockpit glass of a battlemech is functionally no different in terms of tensile and compressive strength than armour. "So why don't they cover the whole mech in it?" Cause you're just going to paint it with camouflage anyways, so why make it transparent?

2) NO ONE in this thread thinks having 360degree camera and sensor coverage is a bad idea. If anyone disagrees they can report to medbay 6 for a psychological evaluation and a severe beating with a trout.

3) MOST PEOPLE, including people who have actually served in military vehicles (thank you Escef, both for you knowledge and service) think that it's a stupid idea to rely exclusively on sensors. Especially when there's no practical vulnerability created by making part of the mech transparent. Modern military designers tend to agree with them since everything from M1A1 to the F-22 to the Arleigh Burke class naval destroyer still have windows of some sort. The only military vehicle I can think of that doesn't have windows are submarines, because they're underwater with nothing to see most of the time anyways.

And to say "well, if they can make the cockpit so tough, they can make the cameras just as tough" is all well and good, but we're not just talking about the cameras. We'd also be talking about all the electronics between the camera and the pilot. If you get shot in the shoulder by a gauss rifle, and all the wires from the right hand cameras to the cockpit get severed on your hunchback, you will be a considerable disadvantage as compared to a Catapult or Jenner where the pilot can just turn his head to the right and look out the cockpit at what he's missing. Plus add on the fluff where an incautious pilot is almost as likely to take out its own electronics as the enemy is (several novels from the succession wars era talk about mechs getting hot enough in the core of the mech that they literally melt their own silicon circuit boards) and having that backup canopy makes even more sense.

+1000000000000000000....

[Riin Suul]

Xhaleon, on 29 December 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

...snip...
I don't think you're on the same page here. I am saying that an array of cameras would always be more practical than an exposed cockpit, regardless of the technology used for armor, transparent or not. Cameras are better than open cockpits, nothing more, nothing less. The relative quality of materials and engineering is completely irrelevant to the point.
...snip...

I would argue that having BOTH cameras and windows is the ideal option, because cameras ARE succeptable to mechanical failure, and the lens of a camera is much smaller and therefore more prone to being totally physically obscured than a window. the cameras are the ideal way to see, because of the potential lack of blindspots, but windows are a very nice backup.

also, to all the people who are claiming zero blindspots with cameras.... I think you mean LESS blindspots. it is basically impossible to have none.

[Gun Bear]

All this arguing about whether 'mechs have cockpits and nobody asked me, I can settle this one easily. You see, it is only a cockpit if the person inside of it is a dick, otherwise it is called a command center.

[ArcaneIce]

I've liked the cockpit views so far, from the little stuff we've seen. Really helps you be more immersed versus just a blank screen with a reticule.

[Kasiagora]

On the original subject, I've liked the design of the original Grasshopper with an LRM 5 in the head and extra material that looks like it would possibly function as a blast shield protruding forward past the cockpit. I think it would be like having a patch over your right eye where your standard field of view might only be somewhere around 110 degrees as you can see a little to the right around the bridge of your nose. Now, if you took the bridge of your nose and lined it with little computer screens showing what's to your right, some radars, ammo reserves, etc... That's about what I'd imagine the view out of the cockpit of one would be akin to. Only in my case without the glasses.
Grasshopper

[Hagan]

To the ongoing argument: Electronic warfare can screw up sensors, camera's and other gear on your mech if done properly. Your eye's will be your best tools for gathering intel. Remember, when all else fails, the most basic tools at your disposal are always what you can see, what you can feel and, lets face it, how good your reactions are.

The human is still the centre of any mobile combat vehicle.

now, onto the designs. Odd ones that have always come to mind are the Jenner, Crab and Annihilator. All have cockpits it odd places, with a lot of visual blind spots close up. The Jenner's is way out front, making small torso movements a big problem when fine tuning shots. Also, as a light jump capable attack and recon mech, when jumping buildings and landscape, you have to swing your torso down in order to see where you are trying to land, as you can't do that at a glance from the cockpit (Mechwarrior 2 experience there).

The Crab suffers from the same problem but from a different design point, its head is centred on the mech, over the torso axis, but the bulk of the design is spread out all around it, meaning a smaller mech can evade rather expertly if the pilot is good and has a 'low down' design... like the Jenner.

The Annihilator is a different kettle of fish (see how English I am, I used a strange metaphor that makes no sense) its cockpit is WAY UP above the mech, and has good short to long range coverage. But it still had that large, egg shaped belly of a body, its bulky and awkward. Up close, that mech would suffer from aiming issues, especially in a city environment. Not to mention the fact that with the cockpit so obvious on the design, its just sniper fodder. Small to medium mechs with good pilots could run rings around that design, close up its bulk does it no favors against smaller designs.

Other mechs with a blindside issue I can think of; Urbanmech, Hollander (a while off I know), Firefly (same issue as the Jenner), Jackal (A while off), Dragon, and when I think carefully about it, the Zeus has two blast shields either side of the cockpit, visually blinding the pilot from threats to either side.

Just my opinions though.

[The unnamed one]

Kristov Kerensky, on 25 December 2011 - 11:33 PM, said:

No Mech has a blind spot, they all have 360 degree views compressed into 160 degrees, so the actual physical Mech designs don't take a pilot's view out the of cockpit into account. Plus there's a number of Mechs that don't actually HAVE any way to look directly out of the cockpit. Most Mechs with actual necks and heads, the heads aren't mobile, no turning. Again, pilots don't look out of the cockpit via viewports, it's through a very sophisticated HUD that's built into the neurohelmet. Otherwise, they'd be blinded, literally and permanently the first time they got into combat

The Hunchback cockpit concept art we've been shown is great though, I love how the cockpit looks, I hope they follow that line with all of the Mechs and that we get to SEE that ingame. It doesn't have the 360 into 160 view going on(thank the gods) but you can clearly see the left/right views on the two side screens, love that.

would suck to be you when something happens to your electronics. then you need to do it the old fashion way.

[Kasiagora]

Hagan, on 01 May 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

The Crab suffers from the same problem but from a different design point, its head is centred on the mech, over the torso axis, but the bulk of the design is spread out all around it, meaning a smaller mech can evade rather expertly if the pilot is good and has a 'low down' design... like the Jenner.

Yeah, I've thought of the crab as being a "muscle-car" mech since they made the angular design of it in Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries with that flat expanse of "hood" stretching out in front of you. Not so much on the original design with the curved torso. If we get it in MWO I'd like to have an angular design more akin to the MW design and an option to get a blower coming out of the torso in front of the cockpit. Then I'd really have blind spot issues.