61 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

really depends.

is ac2s are great for their compactness, but the clan version is a bit large. good when stacked 4 or more.

lb2s run pretty cold, so they are great on 6+ boats where heat becomes an issue. but the cost is that spread.
on the is side the lb2 had more range than the ac2, both optimal and max, so its actually better for ranged trading.
on the clan side the only significant difference is heat.

uac2s on both sides are hot but its good on builds with 4 or fewer guns as a cheap way to increase your firepower. you can run more with heat management skills. 8 on a uv is certainly no bueno, its just too damn hot. you are better off using the cac2s, lb2s, or a mix of lb2s and uac2s. i dont really consider them good for burst damage, since you almost always want to boat a few of them they tend to fill a more sustained fire role. *

the worst in the 2 class i think is still the rac2. im just not a fan of stare and do damage some seconds later weapons. uac2 boats fill its role a lot better.

* side rant:

if pgi really wanted uacs to take on a burst fire role, they would change the mechanics, like longer bursts with longer cd. the only time you burst fire uacs are with a pair of 10s, or 20s, which are hot and crap respectively. 2s and 5s are mostly used in a sustained fire role, and that kind of steps on the racs toes (they simply do the job better than racs can).

i think we should double the rounds in uac bursts, but without reducing the shell damage this makes the full burst 2x the damage rating. the cd for the weapon is increased by 50%. double tap goes away for hold and release. hold while you want to fire and let go when you want to stop. letting go before emptying the clip will force the weapon into cd. if you empty the clip you enter cd. the weapon would have a ramping jam chance in the 0-10% range with a jam roll each round. a jam will simply increase the cd by another 50%.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 December 2018 - 12:27 PM.

[Ilfi]

LordNothing, on 28 December 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

the worst in the 2 class i think is still the rac2. im just not a fan of stare and do damage some seconds later weapons. uac2 boats fill its role a lot better.

RACs fill the "cold laser vomit with infinite scalar burn time and bonus blinding debuff" niche. Wouldn't call RAC2s meta-defining or ground-breaking, but I'd certainly argue they're more useful than IS LBX2s.

[LordNothing]

Ilfi, on 28 December 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

RACs fill the "cold laser vomit with infinite scalar burn time and bonus blinding debuff" niche. Wouldn't call RAC2s meta-defining or ground-breaking, but I'd certainly argue they're more useful than IS LBX2s.

was comparing them mostly against uac2s. id say they are more or less on par with lb2s niche wise. either way you are getting sustained scatter fire. though i still feel i do better with lb2s than rac2s, when you get up to the 5 class things flip.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 December 2018 - 12:25 PM.

[Spheroid]

An LBX-2 cores out a testing grounds Awesome-8Q with 29 shots(after removing the armor). The AC-2 takes 34. This is because 15% of all crit damage transfers back to internal structure.

The LBX has better range and heat as well. The AC2 is still a good weapon though. The value per slot invested is extremely high.

Edited by Spheroid, 28 December 2018 - 12:50 PM.

[LordNothing]

the ac2/cac2 also have some crit chance. it was added to help buff the weapon awhile back. granted its not as good as what the lb2 has, its still there and it does come in handy for busting cores.

[Koniving]

FRAGTAST1C, on 28 December 2018 - 04:12 AM, said:

I was trying some build dakka builds and I found LBX 2 and AC2 weapons almost the same. So, what are they good at individually? Should I ditch both and go with UAC2s instead?

In straight one on one fights, UAC/2s are outright superior when you ignore everything else.
The screenshake caused by a barrage of 4 or more UAC/2s will make aiming anything short of laser weapons about useless as you'll have trouble connecting your shots. (AC/2s macro-fired can do the same though the shake won't be as pronounced).

In protracted/prolonged fights which may involve issues such as cover, multiple targets, low ammo, or whatever the case, you'll find yourself prone to doing better with AC/2s. If you find them more useful than UAC/2s, you may need to think about your positioning skills, or you're working as part of a team as fire support/cover fire.

So long as the safety net of cover is not completely thrown out of the window or in engagements with where there is no respite due to multiple enemies, standard AC/2s and UAC/2s can be about equal with no clear winner.

LBX (with the spread skills maxed out) only outperforms in range (as the terminating range of an LBX-2 is 2,430 (for the IS side only), while AC/2 is 1,440 and 1,400 ).

The UAC/2 can do 2 crit damage per shell with up to 3x bonus with a sub 42% chance for netting any kind of crit. (Up to 6 crit damage and 2.9 damage max to structure per bullet

AC/2: 52% chance for said crits and 2.9 damage max to structure per bullet.

LBX 2 does 2 crit damage per projectile with 2 projectiles, with two separate rolls to test to get some at 67% chance each with a max of 1.9 damage per pellet per shot for a total potential of 3.8 damage max to structure per "shot". With LBX-2 and spread skills, you may as well call it one bullet until between 1,200 and 1,500 meters where they start to actually split meaningfully. (The crit damage is true for both IS and Clan).
15% of your accumulated crit damage per projectile is added as bonus damage to structure.
Range has zero effect on crit damage or bonus damage from crits, so long as it is under the max range, (meaning at anywhere under 2,430 meters, an IS LBX-2 can do up to an additional 1.8 per "shot" fired per LBX-2 against structure, even if the base damage was only 0.1 per pellet. (This is NOT an effective strategy, keep your shots under 1,800 meters whenever possible, ideally no more than 1,500 meters so that your shots can reliably connect with virtually little to no spread).

Each has its merits.
UAC/2 for front lines and one-on-one brawling at high heat
AC/2 for staying power and to keep the heat down.
LBX 2 if you want to clean up weakened enemies or soften/finish them at long range.

Edited by Koniving, 28 December 2018 - 03:21 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

justcallme A S H, on 28 December 2018 - 05:08 AM, said:

What do you use? AC2.

+1 ton on IS?

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

there is no simple 'better'. it's apples and oranges here.

on what mech do you slap it? what role do you have for it? free tons, free crits, numbers of hardpoints and also quirks...
so many things to consider that there is no golden rule which one is stricly better.

that being said, I find myself often using the basic ac2, followed by rac2 (if we count that in), uac2 and lbx2 the least.
to really play to the lbx' strength, you either supress at extreme far ranges or shoot open mechs at at least long ranges. both styles are more for the farmers, they don't suit me.

[Monkey Lover]

(IS side)
uac2 unless on a dragon are trash in my view. They jam way to much and its not really worth peak and poking with such a small dmg weapon.



I like ac2 because its one of the last weapons you can really pin point what you want to hit with.

lb2 are fine but the extra 3 slot per weapon end up costing you tonnage in you use more than 4.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 28 December 2018 - 04:03 PM.

[FupDup]

LordNothing, on 28 December 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

the worst in the 2 class i think is still the rac2. im just not a fan of stare and do damage some seconds later weapons. uac2 boats fill its role a lot better.

The AC/2, LB 2-X, and UAC/2 are all stare weapons too. The RAC/2 just does the most damage for the most tonnage. Personally I get way better results (both damage AND kills) using RACs than any other AC/2 family member but maybe that's because I'm a weirdo.

Edited by FupDup, 28 December 2018 - 05:48 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

IS LB2X in particular is just too bulky to be worthwhile. More often than not, they'll cost you either Endo or Ferro because of how many slots they eat, so any savings in heat management is worthless- you could've easily just slapped on Endo or Ferro and stuffed a few sinks in your engine if you went with AC2 instead. Or taken more ammo, or a bigger engine, or whatever. Good for shotgun memes, horrible for anything else.

UAC2... it's fun to dakka, but the jam chance really dumps UACs of all types into the burst damage category and that makes the UAC2 a little too anemic unless you've got great jam chance quirks. Better to at least have the up-front punch of the larger UACs if you're gonna risk the downtime. More of a niche weapon than a bad one, but still suboptimal on most 'Mechs.

AC2 is probably in the best place it's ever been. Used to suck, now a go-to weapon for dakka even up into the assault class. It's one of the best ACs. RAC2 DPS is higher, but AC2 spam is just about the most dependable, never-lets-you-down DPS you can get in an AC. Just enough damage to actually be able to hurt things at long range, ammo for days, light enough to spam all the way down to medium 'Mechs. It's a great little gun.

[VonBruinwald]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 28 December 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

light enough to spam all the way down to medium 'Mechs. It's a great little gun.

We need the Light AC2/5, can't forget the little guys.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 28 December 2018 - 05:35 PM, said:

The AC/2, LB 2-X, and UAC/2 are all stare weapons too. The RAC/2 just does the most damage for the most tonnage. Personally I get way better results (both damage AND kills) using RACs than any other AC/2 family member but maybe that's because I'm a weirdo.

ive been able to use racs somewhat effectively but i still think they leave a lot to be desired. i dont mind staring if im doing damage, staring and waiting to do damage is something else entirely. sure you can time your spin up with a poke or turning a corner so its ready to go its good. but those are cherry picked situations and not something you will find yourself doing all the time. especially against things like mrm40s, huge laser alphas and hgrs, having to spin up means you are the second one to start firing. i kind of think you can do away with the spin up without making it too op thanks to its heat ramping mechanics.

gun for gun, sure the rac2 is still better, but its not really a weapon you can boat effectively. its a great single gun solution when you cant boat a few uac2s. and as a single weapon the uac2 leaves a lot to be desired.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 December 2018 - 06:13 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

LordNothing, on 28 December 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

the worst in the 2 class i think is still the rac2. im just not a fan of stare and do damage some seconds later weapons. uac2 boats fill its role a lot better.

Triple RAC2s is no joke in a staring contest.

[FRAGTAST1C]

The RAC 2s have a different optimal range than AC2s, I think. It's better to go with one type of autocannon, yes?

[The6thMessenger]

FRAGTAST1C, on 28 December 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

The RAC 2s have a different optimal range than AC2s, I think. It's better to go with one type of autocannon, yes?

Not necessarily, if you could use them with minimal deviance due to difference in projectile-speed and thereby different leads, else if you're using the RACs well above their optimal range where AC2s would work better, then yes you should just go just an AC2.

You could maximize stare DPS by either using 3x RAC2 + 3x AC2, or 2x RAC5 + 4x AC2. Tried it on my Anni a few times, and I can assure you that you'd do a hell lot of a damage before your RACs get jammed.

[InspectorG]

8LB2 Ultraviolence. Keep the range around 500m, bore holes through CTs.

[FRAGTAST1C]

The6thMessenger, on 28 December 2018 - 07:31 PM, said:

Not necessarily, if you could use them with minimal deviance due to difference in projectile-speed and thereby different leads, else if you're using the RACs well above their optimal range where AC2s would work better, then yes you should just go just an AC2.

You could maximize stare DPS by either using 3x RAC2 + 3x AC2, or 2x RAC5 + 4x AC2. Tried it on my Anni a few times, and I can assure you that you'd do a hell lot of a damage before your RACs get jammed.

I guess I'll be choosing the Mauler as my reward then

[Koniving]

Depends. If you can boat them, then yes.

However, I personally find that if your machine can only hold 1 or 2 ballistics, I do not use a single weapon type.

While not a pitch for anyone to try this or follow in what I've done, here's something I've done.

An old anti-meta build I used to use back in the day had the purpose of waiting until a laser vomit mech puked its heatsinks full of crude and then rushing before they could cool, unleashing a non-stop barrage of firepower churning LB-10 X, AC/2, a trio of ML and two Streak SRM-2s. The constant barrage of cool-running firepower allowed me to rush and overtake an enemy, immediately engage the next, and with only slightly letting up on the DPS, I could cool enough to engage a third, a fourth, a fifth, each one at a time in quick succession all while using the battlegrid to issue orders to any willing player.

This was in September 2013. Though the machine has many videos dedicated to it in 2014, one in late 2014 in a vaguely serious 12 vs 12 man fighting (where all I did was trade a ton of ammo and the LB-10X for an AC/10 due to having the support of teammates to help mitigate the otherwise increased heat load).

Come the new weapon systems, I found that what held the design back, though I had kept it for so many years, was the AC/2's heat which was much higher per unit of damage delivered than in the past, where in the past an AC/2 was more like a DPS-laden AC/10 in that it pumped the same DPS as an AC/10. Overall the design lots its effectiveness. I tried other alternatives such as a UAC/2 and while damage went up, heat went up too. An LBX-2 required downgrading the LBX-10, so that was out of the question. Tried trading the LB-10 with an AC/10 and still using the AC/2 in order to get the DPS high enough to make it work, but the heat went through the roof. Then I tried a single RAC/2, as I only had 2 ballistic hardpoints in the Heavy Metal. It became a success. RAC/2 heat for a single weapon is so non-existent that it could be held right up until it jams without ever providing a thermal threat to my well being, leaving the only hot risky thing in my arsenal to be the trio of ML.

Since the heat change toward the so-called favoring of DPS, its made it so that going back to the AC/2 or UAC/2 is possible, but ultimately both are inferior to the final merit of the RAC/2, the rapid delivery of minor screen shake which is enough to throw off the aim of pilots even at medium range against a mech as tall as a Highlander.

And when that sad excuse for rock plays, they'll know what they faced.

Of my really good builds, very little has changed over the years. But because they're good, I only really use them to farm for cash or something else. Otherwise they suck the fun out if I know I'll have it too easy.

(Course I hate it when its too hard, either, high end quickplay where everything's always meta can suck just as bad as having it too easy).

[Dee Eight]

I'm not gonna re-read the thread to see if this was covered yet... but one thing to remember is there's a difference beyond the pinpoint vs spread and heat of the two kinds of autocannons... and that's the tech bases... Clan LB-2s and AC/2s are identical in every other way and the C-ACs only exist because PGI couldn't code an ammo switch. Inner Sphere AC/2s and LB-2s are different weapons in every area other than weight, cooldown and projectile velocity. Really...once they jumped the tech era and gave the IS mechs the LB-2, 5 and 20... they should have also given solid projectile versions of them to replace the standard ACs.