323 replies to this topic

[HammerMaster]

https://en.wikipedia...er-battery_fire

[Reno Blade]

Refining my initial response:

Spoiler

Reno Blade, on 15 January 2019 - 01:10 PM, said:

I like the changes, but i think the LRMs are a bit too spammy (especially clans having over 60 -120 missiles on one mech) with the current heat and cooldown values.

- Arch reduction on LoS -> good for maps like solaris, crimson, HPG ...
- Spread increase -> good, might need bit more
- Velocity decrease -> not that good for a weapon where you need to keep aiming for the whole time
- Heat Scale limit increase -> good, it just matches the larger launchers better
- Heat Scale Penalty amount increase -> good, might need bit more heat

additional changes, i think are needed:
- Base heat -> heat is quite low for (Clan) lrm boats
- Base cooldown -> cooldown is low enough for (Clan) lrm boats to keep spamming it without backup weapons.
This is the most annoying part of LRMs !
- Tracking strenght -> might need to be reduced for indirect
- Spread -> might need to be reduced in general to make Artemis worth more


How do you see the new arch mechanic interacting with the Artemis?
Artemis could be used to distinguish the different flight patterns instead of direct/indirect. It would allow a player choice in building the mech.
On the other hand, it would not reward the LoS fire with the nice stream advantage...

Keep-staring-to-lockon-and-keep-staring-to-hit
I would prefere if missiles would be fire-and-forget mechnic, because it would allow you to twist away without wasting the shot.
Nowadays you have the choice of
- dps weapons (RACs)
- burst weapons (PPC/Gauss/SRM/ACs)
- duration weapons (LRM, Laser, cUAC)
The LRMs are the worst, because you need to lock-on and then you need to keep the lock until you hit (depending on radar dep vs target retention).
The only trick you can use is to gain the lock by indirect targeting before engaging (e.g. from cover).

If the missiles would be fire-and-forget after lock, you would be able to twist and you could also supress multiple targets easier (as you would still hit the first target while locking the next one already).

The choice of using direct and indirect can be further improved by using artemis.
Suggested difference between LRM Artemis (LOS only) vs LRM LOS vs LRM Indirect:
Arc: straight / med / high
Spread: low / med / high
Tracking: high / med / low
Velocity: high (200) / med (175) / low (150)

And the difference between IS and Clan can also be further enhanced to give some "background" to the Clans having half the size/weight.
IS vs Clan:
Base heat: med / high
Heat penalty: high / very high
Cooldown: med / high
Ammo: high (200/ton) / low (120/ton)

This will provide more benefits to LOS and even more to artemis to be worth the tonnage and give players the choice for the prefered arch on LOS missiles (straigt vs small arc) and indirect (high arc).

Also giving Clan launchers more heat and less ammo makes sense, as they are build more compact and do not have the mass and space for heat dissipation and missile size.
-> at least it feels better than just reducing the dmg per missile for Clans.


One other thing that still remains is the previously scrapped idea of Info-Warfare.

Quote

The main idea of the InfoWar PTS was great.
Different Mech classes with different sensor characteristics.
Multiple range and speed differences to give different mechs/classes different feels

more here: https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6147458

And now the final touch:
Locking separate mech parts and using fire-and-forget locking mechanics:

Reno Blade, on 26 February 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

Sure locking on 5 parts separately needs to be very fast (e.g. needs to already happen while the lock cycle is spinning).
I think it could be without visuals, where your missiles "aim" for the 5 areas that you are aiming at when locking on.
So, if you have a steady aim at your targets RT, all the missiles would try to aim for this side of the mech instead of the center mass.
- with the existing spread, you would probably still hit different parts, or miss some missiles, but that way you could add "skill" to your aiming.
and if we also would have the lock-on icons for each of the 5 target zones.... for fun:

[Cherry Garden full of Blue Roses]

C-LRMs should stay or be a bit nerfed (e.g. more heat or longer cooldown) compared to IS LRMs because of C-LRMs no minimal range.

IS LRMs should have the old beta trajectory restored, like here:

The rest is fine as it is now. LRMs are quite good balanced at this moment. Who says "no, they are not", just doesn't know, how to play MWO.

[Bad Pun]

Thanks, PGI. The best news I've heard in a long while for MWO!

I'm not sure how much the nerfs for indirect fire were really needed, especially the velocity loss, but I'll happily test this.

[LordNothing]

dwwolf, on 16 January 2019 - 09:56 AM, said:

2 PM PGI office time ...in Canada.

i figured they would allow us to patch in advance. no matter it took less time than i thought it would to patch (using the repair tool).

[HammerMaster]

So far I'm seeing a shift already for those that know.
The IN LOS lrms work better.
I'm seeing the NARC is still abuse-able. Put that in the pot for tweaking.

Edited by HammerMaster, 16 January 2019 - 03:40 PM.

[suffocater]

Felt ok in the testing grounds, didn't find a game, back to live to play the event.

[A21B]

i think this is a good update for lrms, now lets talk about those rear firing lasers

[Radkres]

I see more people getting hit in the back by friendly's who do not know which flight path the missile will take when trying to hold a lock. Is it Possible to make a icon or something so we know or make it a toggle like we do with AMS or Stealth?
I would have liked to see some low firing other than dumb fire on the testing grounds cause of lack of players in Test.

[Hestan]

Impression of changes: Lots of bugs

One instance of having LOS and firing 3 full salvos of LRM80 on flat trajectory for no damage.

Several cases of LRM's defaulting to flat trajectory without having LOS.

AMS feels a lot weaker as well.

Spread seems bugged as well. You either core them quickly or you shoot their arms and legs off.

Lights in LOS can get wrecked easier by LRM/Tag.

Narc paired with LRM boats is nearly god mode.

Edited by Hestan, 16 January 2019 - 05:51 PM.

[Chris Lowrey]

Hestan, on 16 January 2019 - 05:45 PM, said:

Impression of changes: Lots of bugs

One instance of having LOS and firing 3 full salvos of LRM80 on flat trajectory for no damage.

Several cases of LRM's defaulting to flat trajectory without having LOS.

AMS feels a lot weaker as well.

Spread seems bugged as well. You either core them quickly or you shoot their arms and legs off.

Can you elaborate on what map / locations you where at when you encountered these bugs? Just want to make sure we properly investigate where you were encountering issues.

[Chris Lowrey]

HammerMaster, on 16 January 2019 - 03:40 PM, said:

So far I'm seeing a shift already for those that know.
The IN LOS lrms work better.
I'm seeing the NARC is still abuse-able. Put that in the pot for tweaking.

Can you elaborate on what aspects of NARC you feel are abuseable / aggravated by these LRM changes?

Just to throw it out there as well, we are keeping an eye on the systems that interact with LRMs through this test just as much as we are focused on the LRM's themselves. As we are well aware that baseline changes to the LRMs will undoubtably affect those support systems as well. Feel free to post feedback on AMS, TAG, NARC, Radar Dep, or anything you feel is relevant to the discussion, we will be taking everything into consideration.

[GaelicWolf]

Went to PTS......20 min later finally got 1st match
As well as second, third and so on.....ah well, take it as it comes

I tried pure LRM boats and mixed builds, Clan and IS.
Ran ECM, AMS, Artemis....all of the apects of LRM play.... just to see the effect on gameplay

Heat upon Alpha was to be expected and is some thing that pilots will have to watch for
Chain fire runs close to same, heat creeps up quicker though.
DF missiles feel tighter upon impact

But as expected, alot of pilots, Allies and Enemy are running strictly DF weapons (AC/Lasers)
I DO see many more mixed builds though.

I hope this works out for the best.

[Hestan]

Chris Lowrey, on 16 January 2019 - 05:52 PM, said:

Can you elaborate on what map / locations you where at when you encountered these bugs? Just want to make sure we properly investigate where you where encountering issues.

The no damage was on viridian bog on the flat area near the middle, range a little over 200 meters, target was a linebacker in direct LOS, no obstacles. Did do damage on a mech that was out of LOS and it registered.

The flat trajectory without LOS was noticed on Caustic Valley, targets out of LOS and below rim on other side of bowl. Team mate had LOS and providing targeting for indirect fire. Also happened on Grim Plexus, no LOS but team mate had LOS.

[Akillius]

PTS lrms suck.
Often direct fire and dead fire do not register any damage in polar highlands match, but visually looked like hits at 250m-600m.
Missiles sometimes disappear upon losing contact and sometimes just fly through/past and land far off in distance...
LRMs flying straight up or directly across is also inconsistent imo.

And Dead fire doesn't work it now sucks royally (imo).
OMIT 1. There's a 1 second delay so no point and click firing (tested in proving grounds). OMIT
2. Must keep sights ON mech ((NOT NEAR (+) MECH IN SIGHT! Actually ON MECH)) (no target lock or if using ECM) when dead firing until missiles halfway there at 250-190m..
3. unable to do damage below 182m with all missiles skills points! (Same SP as live server stalker)
Also tested standing still, fire 4 salvos before moving, river city testing grounds.
Stalker 3FB(L) with 2x LRM20 min range 185m max range 900m (irregardless of all missile skills points applied).



AMS is useless like its the big nerf circa 2013......
Used a Kitfox KFX-C displays 2 laser ams with 1 regular ams(+1/2ton)
The 3x ams +1x to +2x ams on nearby friendlys is like having almost NO AMS at all!!! Expect to get blowed up real good with anything less then dozens of ams protecting you from one enemy mech with the massive armada of ... 2x lrm10s in PTS on QP Bog map tonight and don't look at his team for lrms they were using gauss and ACs but the lrms got past all the AMSes and did massive damage!

Yeah so if this PTS lrm ******** gets passed as is, and without AMS getting a serious long overdue fix then I'm friggin done buying anything and probably done with MWO and I try to play at least a few matches every night for the last several years! But hey I'm just one of those insignificant players that has to work 9/5 and just tries to relax with MWO but I thought I'd give the PTS a whirl and, wow not a fan of this BS!



PS. When is the "Block List" going to actually MUTE the jerks in QP/etc upon relogging into MWO then next night or whenever I relog into the game????
Because I have everything muted still and it gets pretty quiet and boring and there's a fair number of people that do this for QP.
PSS. Backwardly the hud-ring command chats no longer even appear because all/team/lance chats are disabled LOL!

Edited by Akillius, 17 January 2019 - 07:59 PM.

[Domenoth]

Akillius, on 16 January 2019 - 08:18 PM, said:

And Dead fire doesn't work it now sucks royally (imo).
1. There's a 1 second delay so no point and click firing (tested in proving grounds).

This sounds odd. Out of curiosity, what Mech were you using when experimenting with Dead fire?

[Vellron2005]

Have not yet tried the PTS; but from what I can conclude from other's experiences, as well as my own when the mechanic was released accidentally, there seems to be a simple problem with the arc changes:

The system doesn't seem to reckognize when an enemy mech is in LOS..

LOS means there's nothing between you and the target, right?

Well that means that if you only see an arm and a leg, top of the mech, or even half the mech you don't have LOS.

If there's a teammate in between you an the target, you don't have LOS.

If there's another enemy between you and the target, you don't have LOS.

If there's objects like the feet of the large round tanks on Grim plexus that let you see the mech and shoot it, you don't have LOS.

The low trajectory arc should only happen when the mech is in the open 100%, full-on LOS, OR when you don't see the full LOS target at all, but your high mounted launchers, like the ears of a Timberwolf for instance, have a direct straight line from the launchers to the target.

I think it's the perchentage of targeted mech in LOS that is making the arcs unpredictable and inconsistent..

To keep it simple - the LRM missiles should always find the shortest possible trajectory that circumvents cover (From a straight line up to a degree we have currently) and makes the maxiumum number of missiles hit their target.

Edited by Vellron2005, 17 January 2019 - 12:40 AM.

[dwwolf]

In other words...we need a toggle for trajectory.

[Nomad One]

After hours of testing different builds, combinations and situations, I have the following feedback points:

- New direct fire trajectory is a very welcome change because it gives the weapon system a little bit of tactical flexibility and allows for use of the weapons in the few indoor/ overhead cover environments the game has.

- Reducing velocity discourages using LRMs in direct fire mode, because at moderate ranges an opponent will have plenty of time to simply move into cover to avoid taking any significant damage. Trading shots against medium range mechs at 300-400 meters anywhere near terrain means you will lose that trade every single time. The only real way to win is to default to the current method of peeking just long enough to get a lock on someone, backing into cover and firing so that the missiles switch to indirect in hopes of hitting them before they too badly punish you for exposing your 'mech.

- The increase of spread and reduction of velocity hits mechs with fewer missile hardpoints or less tonnage to work harder than it does mechs with ample tonnage. The increased spread is simply overcome by stocking either slightly more ammo or increasing the size of the launchers one brings.

- The vulnerability of smaller launchers against AMS incentivizes a "go big or go home" attitude when it comes to outfitting mechs with LRMs.

- Heat penalty changes are acceptable, as you can still alpha strike a large number of launchers as a last ditch attempt but not do so repeatedly. Pacing yourself is key, and further incentivizes risk and reward when firing.

- Inner Sphere LRMs do not need the spread increase or the velocity decrease. The notable tonnage and space requirements for them, as well as the 1-179 meter dead zone put them far behind MRM's in efficiency in direct fire situations.

- If the spread and velocity changes to Clan LRMs are to go through, I would like to see clan LRMs tested without the massive damage dropoff between 1 and 179 meters. Allow them to deal their full damage within that range.

- The advanced tactical missile system's missiles need a health increase against AMS. When mixing the two weapon systems, I noted how quickly even a single anti missile system neutralizes this weapon system.

- Friendly and enemy mechs blocking line of sight to a target switching the firing arc to indirect is a good quality of life aspect for this change.

- Reduce the duration of NARC beacon severely or implement a damage threshold mechanic where the beacon falls off or is destroyed from the affected target 'mech once enough damage is taken. Say, 60 damage. This way, coordinated teams could fire massive volleys at the same time to devastate a single target but everyone simply chain firing one by one would not condemn an affected player to a painfully slow and agonizing demise.

- Remove the ability for UAVs to provide target locks. It should show enemy 'mech movement and weight class on the minimap, and HUD, but should not provide free locks.

To summarize, the new trajectory mechanics are interesting and fun as they provide other ways to play with the weapon system but the base stat changes negatively impact this new direct fire aspect harder than they impact the indirect firing mode. Suggest trying the trajectory change itself on the PTS without any further changes.

Edited by Nomad One, 17 January 2019 - 03:09 AM.

[Akillius]

Domenoth, on 16 January 2019 - 10:18 PM, said:

This sounds odd. Out of curiosity, what Mech were you using when experimenting with Dead fire?

Used only the 1 mech for all LRM testing described for top half of post.
"Stalker 3FB(L) with 2x LRM20 min range 185m max range 900m (irregardless of all missile skills points applied)."
Maps: Polar highlands QP, NA server, skirmish, and River City testing grounds, my ping was consistently between 50-65 during matches and in the testing grounds. Nonetheless I'd press fire button then the frustrating delay was very very consistent in either map for dead firing at a mech's feet or at a building, snow dune, sandy beach, etc. anywhere.

For the Polar highlands QP match lastnight there was 3 other players and my stalker was the last blue for about a minute, not sure if any spectated. If they did, then I'm not talking about the last minute or so when both enemy mechs were under 200m and I'd fire a lrm now and again to get either red team to flinch and turn, while I fired lasers, because heat is just not an issue in that mech.
Also I only use that Mech for LRM (because many expects/demands it to be laser boat) so I'm well aware of what to expect normally and I also played a match with it on live servers before joining PTS.


I'll just have to find some software to record gameplay +show button/key presses and join PTS again to show what I'm experiencing. Any recommendations for that software is greatly appreciated.