43 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

The new LRM arc is way to much like ATM's or MRM's. It takes away the one really nice thing about what i like to call LRM brawlers. Basically they are mechs that can fire from the second line pushing right behind the direct fire brawlers.

A stalker leading a push around a corner, swinging wide to soak an alpha, while the atlas pushes past.. Now your stalker is blocked as if it had MRM's. Kinda takes away the whole purpose of loading them up in the first place.


So why not adjust the firing arc a bit.. Instead of the Huge rainbow arc of indirect fire.. or the MRM strait line. why not a short uprise. or upward arc.. that would allow firing over a mech, and then strait line towards the target. Basically still keeping that semi rainbow, But making it a lot lower. You would still be getting the lock boosts, and spread, faster travel.

Think something like ski jump,, Basically an Obtuse Scalene triangle, (the math needed to create that arc).. The rise would only need to be a short distance, but it still should exist.

https://math.tutorvi...-triangles.html

Edited by JC Daxion, 16 January 2019 - 05:06 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The entire point is to force you to expose your face to enemy fire to gain the advantages of shorter time-to-target and decreased spread.

[JC Daxion]

Y E O N N E, on 16 January 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

The entire point is to force you to expose your face to enemy fire to gain the advantages of shorter time-to-target and decreased spread.

You still would be.. You are still in the open, you still have your own line of site, you still could not fire over large objects.. As someone that uses LRM's as a long brawl weapon, out in the open, often, that can't remember the last time i could not see my target.. It's the whole reason to load the weapon in the first place.

[Y E O N N E]

JC Daxion, on 16 January 2019 - 05:20 PM, said:

You still would be.. You are still in the open, you still have your own line of site, you still could not fire over large objects.. As someone that uses LRM's as a long brawl weapon, out in the open, often, that can't remember the last time i could not see my target.. It's the whole reason to load the weapon in the first place.

Dude, this is an eminently transparent case.

You are still in the open...but behind your team mates. So, no, not exposed to enemy fire, you have metal shields that move ahead of you to quickly duck behind.

If you are for real full-expose with a completely clear LoS, on the target then this flatter trajectory is a non-issue.

[Prototelis]

Better learn2echelon

[Kaeb Odellas]

I feel like this would make higher cockpit position be even more important for LRM boats. An Annihilator would end up being a better LRM boat than an Archer due to its higher cockpit.

[JC Daxion]

Y E O N N E, on 16 January 2019 - 05:53 PM, said:

Dude, this is an eminently transparent case.

You are still in the open...but behind your team mates. So, no, not exposed to enemy fire, you have metal shields that move ahead of you to quickly duck behind.

If you are for real full-expose with a completely clear LoS, on the target then this flatter trajectory is a non-issue.

I've never once seen anyone post that LRM's should fly like SRMs Or turn them into basically Streak MRM's. I could dig up tons of posts if you like seeing, that they should have a lower arc with LOS, but that is not Flat. In any post/dicussion i can recall it has always been an "Arc" Just a lower one to speed the travel time.

What exactly is the point of MRM's and ATM's if LRM's basically act the same way? I want the weapon systems to be different.


We have the way LRM's are now

The new Direct LOS which is basically MRM's/ATM's

What i think the LOS fire version of LRM's be should be something slightly lower than the middle of splitting the difference. I know i've said it many times.. I've read it many times before as well.


Again, what i've never seen is anyone say make LRM's fly like MRM's.. Feel free to dig up any post where someone or better yet many people were saying that is how they should be.

[El Bandito]

JC Daxion, on 16 January 2019 - 09:06 PM, said:

Again, what i've never seen is anyone say make LRM's fly like MRM's.. Feel free to dig up any post where someone or better yet many people were saying that is how they should be.

I have said that LRMs should have flat arc when using DF mode many times. And I have been posting here for a long time. My flat trajectory support posts are in threads such as these. https://mwomercs.com...ight-fire-lrms/, https://mwomercs.com...m-flight-paths/, https://mwomercs.com...s/page__st__140

If you wish to fire over friendly mechs then be sure to use the high ground/step to the side or intentionally break LoS. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Otherwise that would be an overbuff since LRMs will still retain its better accuracy from LoS while you are sitting snugly in the back using your mates as shields.

One way to use the new LRMs overhead is to pilot low cockpit mechs such as the Archer/Stormcrow to have as little LoS as possible.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 January 2019 - 09:15 PM.

[JC Daxion]

El Bandito, on 16 January 2019 - 09:08 PM, said:

I have said that LRMs should have flat arc when using DF mode many times. And I have been posting here for a long time. My flat trajectory support posts are in threads such as these. https://mwomercs.com...ight-fire-lrms/, https://mwomercs.com...m-flight-paths/, https://mwomercs.com...s/page__st__140

If you wish to fire over friendly mechs then be sure to use the high ground/step to the side or intentionally break LoS. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Otherwise that would be an overbuff since LRMs will still retain its better accuracy from LoS while you are sitting snugly in the back using your mates as shields.

One way to use the new LRMs overhead is to pilot low cockpit mechs such as the Archer/Stormcrow to have as little LoS as possible.

Actually, it sound more like you want the cake.. you basically want the function of Streak LRM's, http://www.sarna.net...i/Streak_LRM-15 which DO NOT have indirect fire, and have normal LRM's.


What i am suggesting,, is still making them act like LRM's, but have a bit of increased speed/lock speed for doing it yourself.. Not Supper buffing a weapon to have two completely different functions OR taking the place of another weapon.


A slight buff for Getting your own locks, LOS.. a slight debuff for not.. Not mixing 2 or 3 weapon systems into some kind of Frankenstein crap. To be perfectly frank it's always the UAC2 or PPC's guys using my LRM+ERML assaults as a shield while i fight with the brawlers but what ever..

[Y E O N N E]

What makes an LRM an LRM and not an SRM or ATM or MRM is the LR part, not its trajectory.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 16 January 2019 - 10:40 PM.

[YueFei]

They should let shooters control their own arcs.

Like what this dude does with arrows:


People get hella hyped up to see amazing grenade/flash/smoke/molotov throws in CS:GO. Why not let players make ridiculous trick shots with LRMs, too?

[Bombast]

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

YueFei, on 16 January 2019 - 11:02 PM, said:

They should let shooters control their own arcs.

Like what this dude does with arrows:


People get hella hyped up to see amazing grenade/flash/smoke/molotov throws in CS:GO. Why not let players make ridiculous trick shots with LRMs, too?

That was a thing back in MW2, where we could get the LRM lock, then quickly lift up or to one side while firing off the volley and the missile trajectory could wrap around walls or over a roof or friendly mech, as otherwise they tended to have a fairly flat trajectory, like an arrow at close range.

[Lykaon]

Y E O N N E, on 16 January 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

The entire point is to force you to expose your face to enemy fire to gain the advantages of shorter time-to-target and decreased spread.

Except that the LRMs are inferior in pretty much every meaningfull way when forced to compete with autocannons,lasers,PPCs or Gauss weapons.

So now I need to wonder what is the point if LRMs are just as restricted to clear lanes of fire as more conventional direct fire weapon options.

When LRM platforms occupy that fire lane they are performing at an inferior level compared to other direct fire options. So logically if you options are put an LRM platform in that fire lane or an AC carrier there you would logically utilize the AC equiped mech over the LRM carrier.

This would logically lead towards a tendency for LRMs to leverage the indirect fire aspects of the weapon system and thus defeat the whole purpose of encouraging and rewarding direct fire use of LRMs.


TLDR: If LRMs are not as good as other direct fire weapons and lack the capacity to reliably operate in close second line (firing over friendlies) then why use them ? And since LRMs are of questionable value as direct fire weapons when other more effective options are available then wouldn't this create a trend where indirect fire LRM use is heavily leveraged?

And if this does occur then there is little to no incentive to utilize LRMs as direct fire weapons.

[JC Daxion]

@bombast, Sorry pal.. I've never once sat behind the group in an LRM boat.. I almost never blind fire either.. every single one of my LRM mechs has tag, that i use for myself. I'm also always with the brawlers.



@yeone.. Of course trajectory is part of what makes an LRM and LRM, The arching missiles flying overheard is all part of the experiance..



Again i will repeat seeing people are missing what i am saying.. LOS should give a slight arc reduction for reduced travel time, tighting up the spread, and reducing lock time. No LOS, the reverse.. meaning more reason to have LOS, verse sitting back.

Edited by JC Daxion, 17 January 2019 - 04:25 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Lykaon, on 17 January 2019 - 12:15 PM, said:

Except that the LRMs are inferior in pretty much every meaningfull way when forced to compete with autocannons,lasers,PPCs or Gauss weapons.

So now I need to wonder what is the point if LRMs are just as restricted to clear lanes of fire as more conventional direct fire weapon options.

When LRM platforms occupy that fire lane they are performing at an inferior level compared to other direct fire options. So logically if you options are put an LRM platform in that fire lane or an AC carrier there you would logically utilize the AC equiped mech over the LRM carrier.

This would logically lead towards a tendency for LRMs to leverage the indirect fire aspects of the weapon system and thus defeat the whole purpose of encouraging and rewarding direct fire use of LRMs.


TLDR: If LRMs are not as good as other direct fire weapons and lack the capacity to reliably operate in close second line (firing over friendlies) then why use them ? And since LRMs are of questionable value as direct fire weapons when other more effective options are available then wouldn't this create a trend where indirect fire LRM use is heavily leveraged?

And if this does occur then there is little to no incentive to utilize LRMs as direct fire weapons.

EXACTLY!!!

that is basically what makes an LRM a weapon to use in many cases.. the ability to push a narrow corridor, like say on Solaris city. While the direct fire users can't use there instant hit PPC's from mulitple lines, the LRM's can actually add on damage..

Hurling LRM's right over a brawlers head as they circle is actually a thing for many of us users helping open up that armor. It's part of the strat that helps the bralwer.. We are not using them as meat sheilds as many other Direct fire weapons so often do.. I know i get hit in the back from them all the time as i brawl. When i see those LRM's come raining down from a mech that is only 250-300m from me i love it.. A nice tight spread, and no worries about being hit by someone as i turn to wonder how is coring me out.. ohh its only my own team.



also clan side, we have ATM's,. I see zero reason for two weapons that work the same.


I want an LOS BUFF that's it.. Something to encourage LRM users to get their own locks, to make the weapon a bit more useful for doing so, and maybe helping put an end to the classic, LRM turret that never shares armor and doesn't mvoe the whole match. , But i want LRM's to work like LRM's..

turning them into Streak LRM's which are a totally different weapon will not do that..

[Lykaon]

JC Daxion, on 17 January 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

EXACTLY!!!

that is basically what makes an LRM a weapon to use in many cases.. the ability to push a narrow corridor, like say on Solaris city. While the direct fire users can't use there instant hit PPC's from mulitple lines, the LRM's can actually add on damage..

Hurling LRM's right over a brawlers head as they circle is actually a thing for many of us users helping open up that armor. It's part of the strat that helps the bralwer.. We are not using them as meat sheilds as many other Direct fire weapons so often do.. I know i get hit in the back from them all the time as i brawl. When i see those LRM's come raining down from a mech that is only 250-300m from me i love it.. A nice tight spread, and no worries about being hit by someone as i turn to wonder how is coring me out.. ohh its only my own team.



also clan side, we have ATM's,. I see zero reason for two weapons that work the same.


I want an LOS BUFF that's it.. Something to encourage LRM users to get their own locks, to make the weapon a bit more useful for doing so, and maybe helping put an end to the classic, LRM turret that never shares armor and doesn't mvoe the whole match. , But i want LRM's to work like LRM's..

turning them into Streak LRM's which are a totally different weapon will not do that..

Here the thing though. There are a few of us who understand this aspect of MWo tactics and a a significantly larger portion of players who come from one of the following.

LRM haters who refuse to or can't grasp some basic counter LRM strategies and simply hate the very concept of having to think about something other than what is right in front of them. These players don't use LRMs at all so have no idea that LRMs from their own team can be directly benificial to them on the front lines when the Lurmer isn't one of the players from the next group...

Armchair artillery "specialists" who park somewhere in the rear and leach locks off of the front liners and fire volley after volley of hail Mary ordnance at whatever happens to be available.These players don't move onto the front so have no idea how to provide second line direct support with true LOS so are not qualified to notice a deficiency when it occurs. These are the players that the previous group thinks of when they think of LRMs.

And lastly probably the largest group of players are the dabblers who tried some LRM boating a few times and thought it was novel but ultimately inferior to other weapon options. These players have a limited experience with a wider range of tactics that can be employed with LRMs and unfortunately also makes it unlikely these players will recognize any deficiencies in planed LRM direct fire trajectories.

I feel LRMs need to retain their purpose as second line direct fire support (with LOS and "getting their own locks") without losing the uniqueness that gives them purpose. Without that little unique ability to lob over a friendlies heads the LRM is just a crap front line weapon with piles of weaknesses and little to no advantages over other weapon options on the front lines.

[Y E O N N E]

It's really not that complicated, dude.

When the group moves up, your pushers are taking the aggro while your LRMs peak out from between them to get a lock and fire volleys over their heads. It is just as toxic to play as sitting behind a ridge and doing the same thing, you are just trading away the risk of getting light-ganked for the risk of somebody deciding they should ignore the enemies ahead of you and taking a shot at your face. Same difference.

They reason they are providing a flat arc is specifically because they want you to be engaged as a front-liner yourself when using them directly. As-is, the DPS from a big-tube LRM boat can compete with a dakka boat if both of them do a power play, the difference is that one of them can jam and has to be aimed while the other one can be guided at the expense of being partially mitigated by AMS. If you want your high arc, drop a little further back behind a ridge or a rock to clear your LoS and get those missiles into the air. There's more depth to the play there than there is on the current live implementation.

[Vellron2005]

I think the solution to this problem is simple - If there's a mech between the LRM boat and the target that is in the open, be it friendly or not, than the LRM boat does not have LOS, and fires IDF as normal..

Edited by Vellron2005, 18 January 2019 - 01:47 AM.

[HammerMaster]

Vellron2005, on 18 January 2019 - 01:47 AM, said:

I think the solution to this problem is simple - If there's a mech between the LRM boat and the target that is in the open, be it friendly or not, than the LRM boat does not have LOS, and fires IDF as normal..

Direct fire is normal.
Idf is the exception.
Only mwo makes idf normal.