34 replies to this topic

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

Hello children of all sizes!

There have been a silly number of threads debating the strategic value of rotation/"nascar" plays. Regardless of how warm and salty or burning with fuzziness you feel, an m-barrasing m-mount of MWO matches have devolved into blind nascar races. It is now the default tactic on most maps, a veritable stripper pole which we the community feel compelled to swing around on in a counter-clockwise fashion from the word go. But given the insane frequency with which the map Canyon Network comes up/is chosen, the notion of nascar as the strategem nonpareil should be deader than alpha lance's jiggling bottoms.



Behold! For before you picture 1 shows the generic nascar route, through the canyons and up the ramp of each respective side. The ramps are shown as the large circles. Somehow, aggressively taking the low ground and pushing through a killzone devoid of any cover has become the community's go-to strategy.



Picture 2 shows just a handful of positions that can easily overwatch each ramp and stuff any nascar attempt before it can get started. Each position shown can be reached within seconds of the game starting, has fantastic cover for vertical or side peeking, can be covered with ~500m of range, and can be retreated from under complete cover in either direction.



Pictures 3 and 4 are the views from the southern ramp. Enemy positions are circled. You have no cover, while as many as 7 enemies can blap your soul off from good cover.



Picture 5 is the general team positioning and breakdown of map control for what SHOULD be the standard opening play. It is a very simple setup that does not leave anyone to die, allows mechs of all ranges to be useful, completely shuts down the current "tactical" meta, and requires almost no coordination other than "walk 50 feet from your spawn and hang out there for a minute" and "brawl mechs go left". It is not a specific counter to nascar that somehow becomes useless in every other scenario; it is a basic starting setup that can transition into almost any play.

There are humans amongst us that like to blame map design for nascar matches, but here is one map at least that provides every possible deterrent to that style of play. We just need to decide to actually use the map and a lil teensie part of our brainstems. We just need to stand up for what we believe in and be firm in our confections! We just need to stop tinkling in our diapies and put on our big boy pyants! Let's blowwem up nyascar! Pew!

Edited by Febrosian R Gillingham, 20 January 2019 - 09:24 AM.

[Toothless]

I like how you have taken the time an effort to post a really helpful and insightful post for a game where forming a cohesive strategy and approach in QP with PUGs is literally just as effective an exercise as herding cats.

That is to say, its a sisyphean task and MWO is a lot more tolerable when you just 'let it go'.

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

Toothless, on 20 January 2019 - 09:40 AM, said:

I like how you have taken the time an effort to post a really helpful and insightful post for a game where forming a cohesive strategy and approach in QP with PUGs is literally just as effective an exercise as herding cats.

That is to say, its a sisyphean task and MWO is a lot more tolerable when you just 'let it go'.

See thats the whole point. It doesn't NEED to be a cohesive strategy. It just needs to become the default "thing you do when the game starts up" like it once was (more or less). Considering that "nascar" was originally a specific strategy used in competitive play (entire team moving at the same speed with right-sided mechs) that trickled into group queue and eventually solo queue, the average player's notion of what to do at the start of the game is open to influence. We just need to start that influence enough for it to catch on.

[Toothless]

I seriously doubt that it 'trickled down' into pug play. That gives the PUG community at large way too much credit. That would require observational skills and the will to act on a more viable strategy. Go into QP at any tier and tell me if its populated with players like that.

Its just the way the maps are set up and is the natural thing to do for most players. NASCAR has been around literally since the beginning of MWO.

[JediPanther]

I find canyon to be the funnest map as it has so many options as to how you can position your mech. A lot of my mechs that can use jump jets have a minimal (or max in jester's case) of two just to get over the canyon walls. pride rock in the center is just a trap.

[Y E O N N E]

JediPanther, on 20 January 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

I find canyon to be the funnest map as it has so many options as to how you can position your mech. A lot of my mechs that can use jump jets have a minimal (or max in jester's case) of two just to get over the canyon walls. pride rock in the center is just a trap.

The rock in the center is a position you can take to trap the blue team in Picture 1 on their side of the map and solidify Red's control of their own side. Not shown is another strong position in D3 and another strong one in E5, but you need very long range to make them work.

[NRP]

I like it! Gonna study these when I get home.

I've tried a similar playstyle on this map with my ERLL grasshopper, but I eventually get enemy lights after me with no team support (because they're NASCARing). I guess I need to periodically reposition closer to my fellow racers. My sense of positioning and when to reposition sucks.

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

Toothless, on 20 January 2019 - 09:58 AM, said:

I seriously doubt that it 'trickled down' into pug play. That gives the PUG community at large way too much credit. That would require observational skills and the will to act on a more viable strategy. Go into QP at any tier and tell me if its populated with players like that.

Its just the way the maps are set up and is the natural thing to do for most players. NASCAR has been around literally since the beginning of MWO.

If you mean in the sense that some people would always try to open up a flank, then yes it's existed in some form. But in the sense entire teams were balling up to push counter-clockwise without even seeing the enemy, I don't believe that happened early in the game's life. Especially true through periods of time when the meta favored long range (those mechs don't ball up or push) and before Viridian Bog/Canyon Network/Mining Collective/HPG were released. As for the pug community, I don't think it was any sort of conscious choice as much as just following a couple of people who pushed on the right side each game until it became a habit.

JediPanther, on 20 January 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

I find canyon to be the funnest map as it has so many options as to how you can position your mech. A lot of my mechs that can use jump jets have a minimal (or max in jester's case) of two just to get over the canyon walls. pride rock in the center is just a trap.

There are a number of fun positions to play where just a slight movement can completely shield you from fire in one direction, and let you shoot at an entirely different part of the map. If you're cautious and sneaky enough, you safely occupy 2 or 3 enemy mechs without exposing yourself to fire from more than 1 at a time. Having jumpjets and high mounts lets you set up in a good variety of places. Balling up next to the central rock is just silly.

Y E O N N E, on 20 January 2019 - 10:18 AM, said:

The rock in the center is a position you can take to trap the blue team in Picture 1 on their side of the map and solidify Red's control of their own side. Not shown is another strong position in D3 and another strong one in E5, but you need very long range to make them work.

NRP, on 20 January 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

I like it! Gonna study these when I get home.

I've tried a similar playstyle on this map with my ERLL grasshopper, but I eventually get enemy lights after me with no team support (because they're NASCARing). I guess I need to periodically reposition closer to my fellow racers. My sense of positioning and when to reposition sucks.

In a slower, more developed game lots of fun positions open up, particularly for extreme range. The spots in D3, E5, and another one in the outer corner of C5 can control a huge portion of the map if you have the right mech. Check out some of the footage from the 2016 World Championships - a lot of the top teams used ERLL grasshoppers in those spots or similar. And yes, it was usually the lights' job to flush out those mechs if possible. If you can bribe a streak mech to stay on your side of the map that can make life a lot easier.

[InspectorG]

Toothless, on 20 January 2019 - 09:40 AM, said:

That is to say, its a sisyphean task and MWO is a lot more tolerable when you just 'let it go'.

^this, saves your sanity.

[LordNothing]

Toothless, on 20 January 2019 - 09:40 AM, said:

I like how you have taken the time an effort to post a really helpful and insightful post for a game where forming a cohesive strategy and approach in QP with PUGs is literally just as effective an exercise as herding cats.

That is to say, its a sisyphean task and MWO is a lot more tolerable when you just 'let it go'.

anyone who thinks that herding cats is hard has never opened a can of tuna within earshot of a bunch of cats.

this has nothing to do with the post by the way, i just want to clear up any confusion with regard to the ancient egyption god of cuddles.

in mwo its more like herding sloths. by the time people get into position its too late for it to matter.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 January 2019 - 12:51 PM.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

asking people to not suck at mechwarrior..

[GeminiWolf]

I think all 5 of us who read and post on these forums benefit from your effort sir.

[Kamikaze Viking]

Love your work Feb.

This is partly what frustrates me the most. All of these top tier tactics are known and have been practiced and refined, yet a large % of the playerbase just refuses to actively learn and improve.

2016 Worlds will forever be a highlight of this game for me.

And i fear it will stay that way unless something changes either with PGI's map design and 'balance ideas' Or by training the lower half of the playerbase, as I've been attempting by using low tier alt accounts in recent months. Oddly i've found many t2-5 players willing to try and follow my directions (with a pretty high success rate when they do), but as soon as i get each alt to t3 and T1 'XP bar' players come into the mix is when people stop listening and the Nascar is the worst.

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 28 January 2019 - 02:29 PM.

[GeminiWolf]

Kamikaze Viking, on 28 January 2019 - 02:29 PM, said:

Love your work Feb.

This is partly what frustrates me the most. All of these top tier tactics are known and have been practiced and refined, yet a large % of the playerbase just refuses to actively learn and improve.

2016 Worlds will forever be a highlight of this game for me.

And i fear it will stay that way unless something changes either with PGI's map design and 'balance ideas' Or by training the lower half of the playerbase, as I've been attempting by using low tier alt accounts in recent months. Oddly i've found many t2-5 players willing to try and follow my directions (with a pretty high success rate when they do), but as soon as i get each alt to t3 and T1 'XP bar' players come into the mix is when people stop listening and the Nascar is the worst.

Way cool of you Kamikaze!

[Kells hounder]

Febrosian R Gillingham, on 20 January 2019 - 09:23 AM, said:

Hello children of all sizes!

There have been a silly number of threads debating the strategic value of rotation/"nascar" plays. Regardless of how warm and salty or burning with fuzziness you feel, an m-barrasing m-mount of MWO matches have devolved into blind nascar races. It is now the default tactic on most maps, a veritable stripper pole which we the community feel compelled to swing around on in a counter-clockwise fashion from the word go. But given the insane frequency with which the map Canyon Network comes up/is chosen, the notion of nascar as the strategem nonpareil should be deader than alpha lance's jiggling bottoms.



Behold! For before you picture 1 shows the generic nascar route, through the canyons and up the ramp of each respective side. The ramps are shown as the large circles. Somehow, aggressively taking the low ground and pushing through a killzone devoid of any cover has become the community's go-to strategy.



Picture 2 shows just a handful of positions that can easily overwatch each ramp and stuff any nascar attempt before it can get started. Each position shown can be reached within seconds of the game starting, has fantastic cover for vertical or side peeking, can be covered with ~500m of range, and can be retreated from under complete cover in either direction.



Pictures 3 and 4 are the views from the southern ramp. Enemy positions are circled. You have no cover, while as many as 7 enemies can blap your soul off from good cover.



Picture 5 is the general team positioning and breakdown of map control for what SHOULD be the standard opening play. It is a very simple setup that does not leave anyone to die, allows mechs of all ranges to be useful, completely shuts down the current "tactical" meta, and requires almost no coordination other than "walk 50 feet from your spawn and hang out there for a minute" and "brawl mechs go left". It is not a specific counter to nascar that somehow becomes useless in every other scenario; it is a basic starting setup that can transition into almost any play.

There are humans amongst us that like to blame map design for nascar matches, but here is one map at least that provides every possible deterrent to that style of play. We just need to decide to actually use the map and a lil teensie part of our brainstems. We just need to stand up for what we believe in and be firm in our confections! We just need to stop tinkling in our diapies and put on our big boy pyants! Let's blowwem up nyascar! Pew!

Best (so far) explanation ever ty

[_____]

This is good and all but good luck getting your team to understand these positions within the 60 second time window before the match starts. With people randomly joining the team before the match starts, players not even understanding their own builds (a single ERLL and 4 ERSLs constitutes as a long range mech for them, and telling them it's not long range gets them upset), poor discipline / selfishness, lack of situational awareness where they don't realize they're about to be pushed on by 3 mechs. At the minimum you need a team lead who can pull up a map and point to the exact locations where people should be sitting, then you have some chance of executing anything other than a nascar.

[Ilfi]

Wow, Vellron can pull out ten pages but a thread like this only gets five replies?

[cougurt]

Ilfi, on 22 April 2019 - 05:38 PM, said:

Wow, Vellron can pull out ten pages but a thread like this only gets five replies?

not enough comedic value.

[Anjian]

Why is why the new icy reskin of the map now has a drop ship wreck to block the vortex flow at the upper D4-D5. Does not stop NASCAR entirely but on occasion it slows it down and stops it depending on match.

[Bohxim]

If I may add some of my opinions, as this feels like a very stand-offish strategy:
1) many lights and speedy med brawlers might do a flank or harass the outliers (which arguably is what they're good at), if this becomes the norm, wouldn't they be potentially stuck in a position that is just too far for the friendlies to support? Is successful however, it might potentially just lead to a wider circumference nascar of sorts, as the mechs in C3 and D5 might not have line of sight or time to support those in c5 and e3 respectively
2) the rock paper scissors situation where 1 team does a center rush/nascar and the other team has a few spread out to do covering fire. For example 12v7-8 in the middle, then after the first few fall to that rush (which is highly possible given decent armour rotation or many brawl focused mechs all happen to be on the same team) as there's so much less targets within range for them to target, then when the rotation finally goes to the outliers, they won't have enough heat capacity to fight off a wave of brawl mechs rushing at them

I think as sound as this strategy sounds, a bad roll with members on either side could potentially usurp the strategy easily. Sometimes on certain maps, a firing line situation could melt brawlers significantly before a main engagement (see frozen city and grim) but in a map full of cover like canyon, it could sway the match if the front line crumbles before the ranged soften the brawlers sufficiently

But this is just my 2 cents on what could potentially go wrong