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Stuck In Tier 5


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#81 Kodyn

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 08:21 PM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 16 January 2020 - 08:05 PM, said:


Only way to confirm tier will be if they are setup to show their Tier on the forums.. otherwise Jarl's list cannot be used to guessamate a player's tier. I am aware of several Tier 1 and Tier 2 players who have an average 170+ MS.and average MS below that.. Sort Jarl's List by games played.

Regardless of the number of Tiers being used, the real culprit is the way the PSR is setup to calculate movement itself. PSR thresholds have both a fixed and low thresholds. Followed by the MM using Tiers to group teams instead of avg MS once a player has graduated from the beginner pull. I mean, if one side's has an overall avg 350 MS and the other side overall avg is 200 MS that is a large gap.


In the instances that I've noticed it, it was in fact names I recognized from the forums, people with actual T5 tags displayed. It doesn't happen constantly, but it definitely does happen. I tend to restart the queue if it goes past 30-40 seconds, which I think helps prevent that if the prevailing theory that the longer you wait, the more valves open is in fact the case. By re-queuing, I imagine you're rolling the dice on finding a new group of players freed up from a previous match, and therefore not getting sucked into a valves-open 5-tier spread match. At least in theory. I'll have to pay closer attention, but I'm pretty sure the times I'm remembering were times I alt-tabbed and waited instead.

To your other point, yeah, naturally. I know there's plenty of T1 players who are basically T5s wearing a T1 shirt. I'm certainly not T1 material myself, so I understand how that happens. I think overall we'd just need a higher pop before anything else, no matter how much they tweak the system. I've seen the issue on other low-pop pvp games, MM gets borked no matter the system without enough people to fill it.

#82 TrowaBarton

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 09:41 PM

I just don't get it. I'm doing all the right things. I even got 5 kills in one of my last matches

I rarely get lower than 300 damage in matches. I mix LRM damage with ballistic/laser weapons damage in different stages of the game, the other stuff I mentioned. I stay in the game pretty long and use my armor well. I'm doing all the right things except getting huge damage numbers. And the majority of my matches are losses from team spreading out, not pushing, brand new players, my team almost always loses except for small 2-3 victory streaks. It makes no sense. I'm staying with the team. I hit my targets. This is as smart of playing as anyone has described and the PSR still drops on losses, which happen constantly to my teams. I though poppiing a bunch of uavs would help (that doesn't raise it enough to get the equal sign breakeven). I'm thinking its pretty pointless trying to make new accounts to break out getting lucky on the first match being a team win. or the subsequent matches being team wins. It's extremely frustrating like all I want is to be in tier 3 where there is some separation between new players and use another account in a huge PSR hole for when I don't care if nobody on the team can hit the broad side of a barn.

Update: so I reviewed my match score and I really don't get it. I'm getting kills. I'm getting decent damage somewhere in the 400-500 damage range and still my match score is always hovering at 250/300 even on my good games. I mostly focus on CT, so I'm guessing 3-5 CT's equal something like 400-500 damage, but that won't get a breakeven on a loss game, which is what I get stuck with. It really sucks or I'll have to get an assault that can just barrage damage on enemies. Even on losses that shouldn't (in a half decent system) result in a loss in skill rating, but it does. The only thing that helps is clicking instant drop immediately after a game with a good team to get a win streak, but that's the only thing I can really think to do.

Edited by TrowaBarton, 16 January 2020 - 11:22 PM.


#83 Kodyn

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 09:51 PM

I have to wonder what's up there...if you're actually getting the scores and damage you say you are, you shouldn't be dropping, you should be remaining =. You have to have a pretty awful match to drop PSR, even a pretty brutal loss still offers enough time for 300+ dmg, a kill or two, KMDD, some components, etc.

Hell I have losses under 300 dmg(which I'm not proud of) and almost always at least get =. I wonder if something is different about how it calculates the increase/drop in different Tiers, because it seems all but impossible to ever drop PSR in T1, and T2 zipped right by back when they first implemented the system.

#84 The Jewce Iz Loose

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 10:27 PM

View PostTrowaBarton, on 16 January 2020 - 09:41 PM, said:

I just don't get it. I'm doing all the right things. I even got 5 kills in one of my last matches

I rarely get lower than 300 damage in matches. I mix LRM damage with ballistic/laser weapons damage in different stages of the game, the other stuff I mentioned. I stay in the game pretty long and use my armor well. I'm doing all the right things except getting huge damage numbers. And the majority of my matches are losses from team spreading out, not pushing, brand new players, my team almost always loses except for small 2-3 victory streaks. It makes no sense. I'm staying with the team. I hit my targets. This is as smart of playing as anyone has described and the PSR still drops on losses, which happen constantly to my teams. I though poppiing a bunch of uavs would help (that doesn't raise it enough to get the equal sign breakeven). I'm thinking its pretty pointless trying to make new accounts to break out getting lucky on the first match being a team win. or the subsequent matches being team wins. It's extremely frustrating like all I want is to be in tier 3 where there is some separation between new players and use another account in a huge PSR hole for when I don't care if nobody on the team can hit the broad side of a barn.


I see you like to roll mostly heavies, here are a couple of builds that rack up a lot of damage you should try out.

Madcat 2-B clan mech speed 62-64 kph
2x uac-10, 2x uac5 or 2x uac-10, 2x lbx 10
With the 4x 10's build you will put in a lighter engine but will have better heat management, and 2 of your guns will never jam
The uac10's and 5's build is better for pinpoint damage, but is hotter and has a tendency to jam up on you, both are good builds

Blood Asp A or B,clan mech, the A has jump jets the B does not, both have ecm 64 kph
uac-10 x1, uac-5 x3, good med range fighter or can get up in enemy's face
uac-10 x2, uac-20 x1, more on the brawl side, gets into heat issues pretty quick but can lay down a thumping quick

Both those mechs are good for QP because they are quick enough to keep up with the team without getting left behind. Most of the time enemy's will try their hardest to get out of the way of your ballistics and if they dont, well they die. Not sure what kind of settings you roll with but first and foremost go to mouse sensitivity and take that WAY down if you haven't already, you want to be able to hold your crosshairs on the same spot.

Edit: Take double artillary or air strike, get a few hits off both of them might raise your damage by 100-300 even more depending on how many hits. Also take double cool shots, nothing like being able to extend yourself in a long battle without having to cool down.

Edited by The Jewce Iz Loose, 16 January 2020 - 10:30 PM.


#85 Horseman

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 12:22 AM

View Post_Magno_, on 16 January 2020 - 04:32 PM, said:

4 games in a row. I go out with decent mechs.
Four consecutive games are not a statistically significant sample size.

View PostTrowaBarton, on 16 January 2020 - 09:41 PM, said:

I just don't get it. I'm doing all the right things. I even got 5 kills in one of my last matches
I rarely get lower than 300 damage in matches.
https://leaderboard....h?u=TROWABARTON
Your average match score is not consistent with that, being only ~130. How often do you leave matches after your mech has died?

Quote

I mix LRM damage with ballistic/laser weapons damage in different stages of the game,
Ie: not using builds specialized for a single engagement type. Instead of doing two different things so-so, build your mechs to do one thing well.

Quote

I'm doing all the right things except getting huge damage numbers.
Damage accounts for the majority of your match score.

Quote

I'm staying with the team. I hit my targets.
How much are you focusing on killing your targets? Removing enemy firepower is part of the equation - if your team is losing combat capability faster than that's done to the enemy, a loss is pretty much guaranteed; matches can snowball from as little as a two-kill lead.

Quote

This is as smart of playing as anyone has described and the PSR still drops on losses, which happen constantly to my teams.
Given a large enough sample size, competence and incompetence on the part of your teams averages out with that on the part of enemy teams - the main statistically significant factor to your win/loss rate becomes yourself, through the net combination of your builds, your actions during the match and your activity on comms (both giving intel to your team and using that which they provide, if any)

Quote

I though poppiing a bunch of uavs would help (that doesn't raise it enough to get the equal sign breakeven).
UAVs don't deal damage like the strikes and don't help you deal damage like the coolshots. While they have their uses, most mechs will find strikes + coolshots to be more useful overall.

Quote

It really sucks or I'll have to get an assault that can just barrage damage on enemies.
Assaults can carry slightly more firepower than heavies, yes, but they pay for it with terrible mobility. If you really have to get one, get the Mad Cat Mk II B.

However, I recommend first looking more closely at how you've built your mechs. If you don't mind, can you post build codes and skill tree codes (or just screenshots if that's easier for you) here? Let's see what do we have to work with.

#86 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 01:49 PM

View PostTrowaBarton, on 16 January 2020 - 09:41 PM, said:

I just don't get it. I'm doing all the right things. I even got 5 kills in one of my last matches

I rarely get lower than 300 damage in matches. I mix LRM damage with ballistic/laser weapons damage in different stages of the game, the other stuff I mentioned. I stay in the game pretty long and use my armor well. I'm doing all the right things except getting huge damage numbers. And the majority of my matches are losses from team spreading out, not pushing, brand new players, my team almost always loses except for small 2-3 victory streaks. It makes no sense. I'm staying with the team. I hit my targets. This is as smart of playing as anyone has described and the PSR still drops on losses, which happen constantly to my teams. I though poppiing a bunch of uavs would help (that doesn't raise it enough to get the equal sign breakeven). I'm thinking its pretty pointless trying to make new accounts to break out getting lucky on the first match being a team win. or the subsequent matches being team wins. It's extremely frustrating like all I want is to be in tier 3 where there is some separation between new players and use another account in a huge PSR hole for when I don't care if nobody on the team can hit the broad side of a barn.

Update: so I reviewed my match score and I really don't get it. I'm getting kills. I'm getting decent damage somewhere in the 400-500 damage range and still my match score is always hovering at 250/300 even on my good games. I mostly focus on CT, so I'm guessing 3-5 CT's equal something like 400-500 damage, but that won't get a breakeven on a loss game, which is what I get stuck with. It really sucks or I'll have to get an assault that can just barrage damage on enemies. Even on losses that shouldn't (in a half decent system) result in a loss in skill rating, but it does. The only thing that helps is clicking instant drop immediately after a game with a good team to get a win streak, but that's the only thing I can really think to do.


Your average stats says differently. Tier movement is handled by PSR which uses static Match Score thresholds. And big Tier movement can only happen during a player's Cadet time (first 25 games).

For most, the largest portion of a person's MS comes from damage, but only 50% Damage to enemy is converted to said MS. 300 dmg = 150 MS portion. Team damage takes away from that.

Below is the PSR chart calculated by players. As you can see there is only 4 ranges. The difference between winning and losing is Tier movement based on where you MS lands on the chart. A 150 MS sees a small upward movement while that same MS sees a medium side downward movement.

Posted Image

#87 justcallme A S H

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 03:00 PM

View PostTrowaBarton, on 16 January 2020 - 09:41 PM, said:

I just don't get it. I'm doing all the right things.

. I mix LRM damage with ballistic/laser weapons damage in different stages of the game,


Ok so that is not the right thing... Right there is your issue.

You are playing the game in perceived, stages. There is not stages, really. Most games last 3-4mins - or at least decided by that time. This also includes 1-2mins of that is walking across a map.

If you have a LRM launcher and a AC20, that is a bad build. One weapon has 1000m range one has about 300m. Don't mix ranges.

Focus on one range bracket for all weapons.

#88 TrowaBarton

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 06:58 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 18 January 2020 - 03:00 PM, said:


Ok so that is not the right thing... Right there is your issue.

You are playing the game in perceived, stages. There is not stages, really. Most games last 3-4mins - or at least decided by that time. This also includes 1-2mins of that is walking across a map.

If you have a LRM launcher and a AC20, that is a bad build. One weapon has 1000m range one has about 300m. Don't mix ranges.

Focus on one range bracket for all weapons.


I've tried playing in in lots of different ways to get out of the psr hole and maximize the damage I do in game. One strategy that works off and on is dumping lrm damage on the enemy at the start of the game, then following up with other weapons.

Otherwise, yes I have tried making sure my weapons line up at the correct ranges. Still doesn't help because I have to take on 3 mechs at the same time often, because nobody ever does pushes and I'm left to do my own or I hold back and the enemy team attritions my team down.

I've tried assaults too and since I switched away from missiles even with more direct weapons my damage score goes down. I'm keeping it in the box, there just aren't enough engagements per game to make it work. No matter what I do I only do 300-400 damage a game consistently and my match score is constantly in the 200 range. Either it's me against 5 mechs or it's the team hiding behind cover never pushing.

I probably will have to find something heavy that balances missiles with direct weapons and speed, but mad cats cost a lot of cbills and I can't use it in faction play, because everything I have are IS mechs.


View PostHorseman, on 17 January 2020 - 12:22 AM, said:

Four consecutive games are not a statistically significant sample size.
https://leaderboard....h?u=TROWABARTON
Your average match score is not consistent with that, being only ~130. How often do you leave matches after your mech has died?

Ie: not using builds specialized for a single engagement type. Instead of doing two different things so-so, build your mechs to do one thing well.

Damage accounts for the majority of your match score.
How much are you focusing on killing your targets? Removing enemy firepower is part of the equation - if your team is losing combat capability faster than that's done to the enemy, a loss is pretty much guaranteed; matches can snowball from as little as a two-kill lead.

Given a large enough sample size, competence and incompetence on the part of your teams averages out with that on the part of enemy teams - the main statistically significant factor to your win/loss rate becomes yourself, through the net combination of your builds, your actions during the match and your activity on comms (both giving intel to your team and using that which they provide, if any)
UAVs don't deal damage like the strikes and don't help you deal damage like the coolshots. While they have their uses, most mechs will find strikes + coolshots to be more useful overall.

Assaults can carry slightly more firepower than heavies, yes, but they pay for it with terrible mobility. If you really have to get one, get the Mad Cat Mk II B.

However, I recommend first looking more closely at how you've built your mechs. If you don't mind, can you post build codes and skill tree codes (or just screenshots if that's easier for you) here? Let's see what do we have to work with.


For some reason I can't post images in this, but I like rotaries and ac's or lbx's as direct fire. I try to avoid lasers, because I like to move and fire and avoid overheating in my builds. My latest build is an anihilator with 2lbx 5's 2lbx 2's and 2 rotary 2's. It's slow, but I often find myself fighting 3-5 mechs at one time.

I have another build with a rotary 5 a rotary 2 an LRM 10 and an LRM 15 that does well, because I can use both weapons together or separate, but it seems to always get more kills than actual damage because it takes out CT's with the rotaries and gets killing blows.

As for aggregate scoring. I started playing last month and played tons of games before I started getting confident maybe a week or two ago in the game. I was on an upswing, but then I tried experimenting with different weapons and configurations and it didn't work out very well trying to create new tactics for new weapons.

Edited by TrowaBarton, 18 January 2020 - 07:20 PM.


#89 thievingmagpi

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 07:33 PM

you've come across one of the biggest issue in this game.

70% of people don't want to shoot the enemy.

the amount of cowardly limp **** hiding that a majority of people in this game practice is staggering. and it doesn't often work out for you to be the only one shooting because you'll take more return fire than you can dish out. People seem to outright refuse to want to do damage.

well, you just learned the best lesson you can learn in this game.

Your team is garbage. They aren't going to help you and you sure as hell aren't there to help them if they're unable to do something as rudimentary as read a map. They're too busy hiding behind a building, sitting at 0% heat, chainfiring medium lasers, staring off in some unknown direction, in zimbabwe or running around in one of the Top 10 Best Baradul Builds.

Your team sucks. Be better than your team.

You do that by letting all those clowns get farmed while you do damage. Find builds that allow you to maximize damage output in short windows. Find angles in games that allow you to shoot the people shooting your teammates.

The other 11 people on your "team" are simply obstacles to victory.

Positioning is very important in the game, but it's not as static as it may sound. Idiots love to waltz into, and then out of strong positions. Idiots love to see you in an advantageous flanking position and then walk up beside you giving you away or blocking your line of fire. Pay attention to the minimap. Don't get left behind, you'll get overrun and don't lead the charge- Idiots love to fold and back off at the first sign of an enemy. Unless you're mechanically skilled enough to take on 4 mechs at once, just don't. Just do a lot of damage and pray the droolers on your team stay alive long enough for it to matter.

This is a game about big giant robots shooting each other with lasers and autocannons. Find the enemy and assert dominance. Impose your will on them.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 18 January 2020 - 07:58 PM.


#90 Vxheous

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 07:39 PM

View PostTrowaBarton, on 18 January 2020 - 06:58 PM, said:


I've tried playing in in lots of different ways to get out of the psr hole and maximize the damage I do in game. One strategy that works off and on is dumping lrm damage on the enemy at the start of the game, then following up with other weapons.

Otherwise, yes I have tried making sure my weapons line up at the correct ranges. Still doesn't help because I have to take on 3 mechs at the same time often, because nobody ever does pushes and I'm left to do my own or I hold back and the enemy team attritions my team down.

I've tried assaults too and since I switched away from missiles even with more direct weapons my damage score goes down. I'm keeping it in the box, there just aren't enough engagements per game to make it work. No matter what I do I only do 300-400 damage a game consistently and my match score is constantly in the 200 range. Either it's me against 5 mechs or it's the team hiding behind cover never pushing.

I probably will have to find something heavy that balances missiles with direct weapons and speed, but mad cats cost a lot of cbills and I can't use it in faction play, because everything I have are IS mechs.




For some reason I can't post images in this, but I like rotaries and ac's or lbx's as direct fire. I try to avoid lasers, because I like to move and fire and avoid overheating in my builds. My latest build is an anihilator with 2lbx 5's 2lbx 2's and 2 rotary 2's. It's slow, but I often find myself fighting 3-5 mechs at one time.

I have another build with a rotary 5 a rotary 2 an LRM 10 and an LRM 15 that does well, because I can use both weapons together or separate, but it seems to always get more kills than actual damage because it takes out CT's with the rotaries and gets killing blows.

As for aggregate scoring. I started playing last month and played tons of games before I started getting confident maybe a week or two ago in the game. I was on an upswing, but then I tried experimenting with different weapons and configurations and it didn't work out very well trying to create new tactics for new weapons.


As I read this, I see multiple problems.

1. You mention you either fight 3-5 mechs by yourself because no one pushes, but that behavior sounds like you don't know how to properly position yourself to engage properly. "Pushing" a team by yourself is suicide, don't ever do that. Conversely, you're talking about holding back and then your team falls to attrition. Clearly the enemy team is shooting you from somewhere, find where that is and shoot back. It's not like they can magically shoot you without exposing themselves to return fire. Find a spot where you have a good lane of fire, but can't get shot back by more than 1 or 2 mechs at most.

Here is an example of "good" positioning on Canyon network. If you spawned at Team 1 charlie lance, you can move up what is referred to as "epsi ridge" in comp circles (movement in blue). Using that rock, you can isolate one lane of fire, either back towards com tower (labelled angle #1), or down towards the ramp (labelled angle #2). Shoot a couple times, being wary of potential lights that might cross the ridge and come for you. Move to the 2nd firing position, referred to as "epsi corner" (labelled #3). Angles there include shooting down the valley, back across to behind theta, and various spots around theta. Again, shoot a few times, be wary of lights coming to chase you. Now move to 3rd firing position "C5 rock" (labelled #4). From here, you can shoot over theta, and various angles around theta, depending on which side of the rock you peek.

Meanwhile, most of the rest of the team will be doing the rotato potato around theta, so as long as you rotate on the outside, you should be able to constantly shoot. There are actually a ton more angles that I didn't draw on the map because it would just clutter it, but basically you want to find cover and side peek an angle, only exposing yourself to 1-2 lanes of fire at most.

Posted Image

2. Your builds are bad, your weapon choices are bad. There is absolutely no reason to mix LBX 5's with LBX2s, and then some rac 2s. Throw 2 UAC 10 and 2 UAC 5 on your annihilator and call it a day. Alpha spam those UACs at anything and everything that tries to look at you. You want to be able to do high damage for decent heat generated, at a decent engagement range (500-600m). 2xUAC10 2xUAC5 lets you dump a 60 alpha double tap of dakka at 550m, while giving you decent heat to keep firing if/when pushed. There's a reason why big massed ballistic builds (2xUAC5 + 2xUAC10, 4 LBX 10, 5 UAC5, etc) are so strong in quick play.

Edited by Vxheous, 18 January 2020 - 07:47 PM.


#91 TrowaBarton

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 01:18 AM

so I have a build that's 150dp in a 5 second burst, which is the typical amount of peak time I have for my lumbering anahilator. It also gets no overheat in my setup. I've tried single shot builds and they just never hit because i'll get screen shutter the moment i'm going to fire, because they hit me. I have lbx2 + lbx5 + lbx10 + rotary ac2 + rotary ac5. that will get me tons of damage in a burst and suppress the person i'm shooting at. I guess I could try the UAC's, but i've gotten use to leading with rotaries and I can hit lights with them, which I would never be able to do with uacs as they're running at 130 kph. I looked at doing 2 UAC 20's and a UAC 10 for 50dp a burst just today in the training grounds, but those are at 270m on the low end for me and although they are devastating up close my current build is good for the 500m range and in, being able to go out further if I have to, (but with less damage). I am open to ideas for build though. That UAC one I had not tried.

View PostVxheous, on 18 January 2020 - 07:39 PM, said:

As I read this, I see multiple problems. 1. You mention you either fight 3-5 mechs by yourself because no one pushes, but that behavior sounds like you don't know how to properly position yourself to engage properly. "Pushing" a team by yourself is suicide, don't ever do that. Conversely, you're talking about holding back and then your team falls to attrition. Clearly the enemy team is shooting you from somewhere, find where that is and shoot back. It's not like they can magically shoot you without exposing themselves to return fire. Find a spot where you have a good lane of fire, but can't get shot back by more than 1 or 2 mechs at most. Here is an example of "good" positioning on Canyon network. If you spawned at Team 1 charlie lance, you can move up what is referred to as "epsi ridge" in comp circles (movement in blue). Using that rock, you can isolate one lane of fire, either back towards com tower (labelled angle #1), or down towards the ramp (labelled angle #2). Shoot a couple times, being wary of potential lights that might cross the ridge and come for you. Move to the 2nd firing position, referred to as "epsi corner" (labelled #3). Angles there include shooting down the valley, back across to behind theta, and various spots around theta. Again, shoot a few times, be wary of lights coming to chase you. Now move to 3rd firing position "C5 rock" (labelled #4). From here, you can shoot over theta, and various angles around theta, depending on which side of the rock you peek. Meanwhile, most of the rest of the team will be doing the rotato potato around theta, so as long as you rotate on the outside, you should be able to constantly shoot. There are actually a ton more angles that I didn't draw on the map because it would just clutter it, but basically you want to find cover and side peek an angle, only exposing yourself to 1-2 lanes of fire at most. Posted Image 2.


This is something like I have tried to do. I can't make it up the hills in that map so I swing that way and hope that there won't be more than one mech. Sometimes I get unlucky and there or two or there is a heavy and a light and I am really not going to have a good game there.

On the small forest map I always try to hug the mountain instead of going out in water, but that's where the enemy push is and my team won't take my advice and go that way instead getting cut down by LRM's and flanked from that side as they push through the mountain pass. Some maps are just messed up that way, because if I go right it's a huge distance of open space to get cut down. If I stay in back my missile locks go away if I have a missile boat or when the enemy pushes, most of my team has allowed itself to be sniped away and it's me against 5 mechs again.

The way you describe really is the only successful way I've been able to get kills besides the random push where I just get behind something and try to focus on a single mech before my team gets overwhelmed. The bad part is, my anihilator is too slow to commit to many other angles and my orion although faster isn't nearly able to sprint if I hit 2-3 mechs when I'm trying one of those angles. It is good strategy though. It's the best strategy I can hope to do in an instant drop, because my team does whatever the heck anyone on the team wants to do for the entire game.

#92 Vxheous

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 01:34 AM

a 48 kph anni can play as I've described, since I do it all the time when I play an anni. The kitchen sink LBX/rotary/ac thing will never get you out of Tier 5.

#93 Horseman

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 01:43 AM

View PostTrowaBarton, on 18 January 2020 - 06:58 PM, said:

I have to take on 3 mechs at the same time often,
If you're in a situation where you're outnumbered, GTFO instead of trying to fight (unless you're too slow to outrun your pursuers, in which case you're already dead and the only question is how much you will make it cost them).

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because nobody ever does pushes
Use the freaking comms

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and I'm left to do my own
A one-mech "push" isn't pushing, it's just feeding the enemy team a free kill.

Quote

I've tried assaults too and since I switched away from missiles even with more direct weapons my damage score goes down.
Because you haven't used those weapons enough and you need practice with them. Retreating to the comfort zone of lock-on weapons isn't going to provide that. You can either double down on the vicious cycle of not using direct fire enough to be good with it and retreating to lock-on weapons OR you can break out of it

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I probably will have to find something heavy that balances missiles with direct weapons and speed,
No you don't. That's called a bracket build and it's defective by design - you end up with a mech that is neither a good LRM boat nor a good direct fire build.

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For some reason I can't post images in this, but I like rotaries and ac's or lbx's as direct fire.
Rotaries require you to expose your mech too much AND spread damage. LBXes spread damage (10s are okay, though). ACs are okay, but UACs deal significantly more burst damage.

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I try to avoid lasers, because I like to move and fire and avoid overheating in my builds.
A properly built - and skilled - laser boat can manage its' heat. If yours can't, you're doing something wrong.

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It's slow, but I often find myself fighting 3-5 mechs at one time.
You're more likely than not finding yourself ganged on because your mech is slow and easy to isolate. Focus on being close to at least one if not more of your team's heavy or assault mechs. That way you can provide fire when they need help, and they can do the same for you.

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I have another build with a rotary 5 a rotary 2 an LRM 10 and an LRM 15 that does well, because I can use both weapons together or separate, but it seems to always get more kills than actual damage because it takes out CT's with the rotaries and gets killing blows.
You mean it harvests kills where your team already did most of the work. That is not a good thing.

#94 Horseman

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 02:07 AM

View PostTrowaBarton, on 19 January 2020 - 01:18 AM, said:

I guess I could try the UAC's,
2xUAC5 + 2xUAC10, get used to it.

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but i've gotten use to leading with rotaries and I can hit lights with them, which I would never be able to do with uacs as they're running at 130 kph.
That is actually one time where chain fire has a use.

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I looked at doing 2 UAC 20's and a UAC 10 for 50dp a burst just today in the training grounds,
... you know that firing 2xUAC20 together produces ghost heat, right?

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but those are at 270m on the low end for me
Your ANH doesn't have the speed needed to get those weapons into range.

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I can't make it up the hills in that map
There are paths where you can. Remember that attacking a slope straight on isn't usually productive - you want to "wiggle" your movement direction so that you're actually climbing at a lower angle.

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If I stay in back my missile locks go away if I have a missile boat
As a missile boat you need to stick with the front line and either get their own locks or aim to get LOS to your current lock. It's strongly recommended to bring your own TAG and Artemis.

#95 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 03:34 AM

View PostTrowaBarton, on 19 January 2020 - 01:18 AM, said:

I have lbx2 + lbx5 + lbx10 + rotary ac2 + rotary ac5. that will get me tons of damage in a burst and suppress the person i'm shooting at. I guess I could try the UAC's, but i've gotten use to leading with rotaries and I can hit lights with them, which I would never be able to do with uacs as they're running at 130 kph. I looked at doing 2 UAC 20's and a UAC 10 for 50dp a burst just today in the training grounds, but those are at 270m on the low end for me and although they are devastating up close my current build is good for the 500m range and in, being able to go out further if I have to, (but with less damage). I am open to ideas for build though. That UAC one I had not tried.


1. 3 UAC5 + 1 UAC10

2. 2 UAC5 + 2 UAC10

3. 5 UAC5

4. 2 UAC10 + 1 UAC20 (instead of 1UAC10 + 2 UAC20)

5. 2 RAC 2 + 2 UAC10 (runs hotter than most dakka builds)

Never try and make a loudout that has multiple ranges like the one you have. Try to streamline it in a way where one weapon group might have a shorter range but still effective with the other group. Currently, you have far too many weapons doing different things.

#96 thievingmagpi

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 01:43 PM

I was explaining it in this thread

https://mwomercs.com...layer-opinions/

But I know that when you're new/ish to the game having things like "backup weapons" or having a diverse loadout to do damage at different ranges or engagement types feels good. The problem is it's a crutch, and being able to do (usually quite small amounts of) damage tricks you into thinking "yeah, I'm putting in work!" That's a bit of an illusion unfortunately.

If this game were a bit more "realistic" or simulator/ARMA style or something, then yeah, you might see more use of mixed loadouts but it's really not that way. The best way to build mechs is to be as brutally effective as possible.

A single light laser to "defend against lights" isn't going to help. It's not going to kill lights, and you're giving up slots/heat/etc that could be better used elsewhere. A single rac, while it fires fast, just doesn't have enough damage on its own to do much of anything. An LB5 and LB2 aren't enough damage to deter anything, and they fire at different rates. That means when you move into/out of cover, they're going to shoot at weird times and you're going to be further decreasing your ability to put out effective damage.

You need builds where the weapons really synchronize well, which is why you rarely see more than 2 different weapons on mechs. That means when an enemy comes into your effective range, you are doing as much damage as possible. If you have a million different weapons, you're just going to be shooting spitballs at them. A single rac2? Useless at 600m and useless at 300m.

It's going to feel like you're taking a big risk, but giving up backup weapons and mixed loadouts will see you improve. How do you counter facing an enemy in a non optimal range for you? Avoid getting in that engagement. Play the game so the odds are in your favour, don't try and build for every possibility. Stack the dice. You do that by being in good positions, in good ranges to do as much damage as possible.

Trust me, your stats/damage/skills will improve once you take something which feels at first feels a bit riskier (even though it's not).

Look at the above UAC5/UAC10 combo. That thing will spit out tons of damage at pretty much all the ranges needed in quickplay. A nice high burst if something turns a corner on you, and if you've got a good position on the enemy you can just pump out DPS as long as the jam luck is in your favour. Your not slapping unneeded backup weapons or extra long range poking weapons or anything like that. Just pure, simple ballistic fury.

#97 TrowaBarton

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 02:31 PM

Ok, I'm taking people's advice, but instant drop is as excruciating an experience as possible these days.

Just today, everybody talking about losing streaks. My last game a player just went around team killing shooting people from my team in the back. two mechs separately rushed the enemy on their own in the same game. More disconnects. There is a stealth flea in the trial mechs to make sure that any 10yo can shoot players in the legs and there's no teamwork so theres nothing anybody can do.

I think at some point we have to start holding PGI responsible for enabling this garbage. They have created a garbage dump where teamwork isn't present bc it's too hard for casual players. People can have the troll mechs for free, so they want people to be as angry as possible. experimenting with weapons is heavily penalaized (pretty much everyone agrees that dakka builds are the only way you can play this game). The game modes are pointless set up with random things like generators for domination that poeple get tricked into shooting so they don't fight the enemy. The drop points in solaris city are set up to encourage new players to go out of bounds by accident and self destruct. There is no balance in place for disconnects. They seem to have intentionally set things up to be as anger inducing as possible. The game is barely playable or enjoyable, but I can't recommend this hell to anybody in good conscience, which really sucks because I love MW4's online component and have good memories of that. This definitely is not that experience.

#98 TrowaBarton

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 02:42 PM

Ok, I'm taking people's advice, but instant drop is as excruciating an experience as possible these days.

Just today, everybody talking about losing streaks. My last game a player just went around team killing shooting people from my team in the back. two mechs separately rushed the enemy on their own in the same game. More disconnects. There is a stealth flea in the trial mechs to make sure that any 10yo can shoot players in the legs and there's no teamwork so theres nothing anybody can do.

I think at some point we have to start holding PGI responsible for enabling this garbage. They have created a garbage dump where teamwork isn't present bc it's too hard for casual players. People can have the troll mechs for free, so they want people to be as angry as possible. experimenting with weapons is heavily penalaized (pretty much everyone agrees that dakka builds are the only way you can play this game). The game modes are pointless set up with random things like generators for domination that poeple get tricked into shooting so they don't fight the enemy. The drop points in solaris city are set up to encourage new players to go out of bounds by accident and self destruct. There is no balance in place for disconnects. They seem to have intentionally set things up to be as anger inducing as possible. The game is barely playable or enjoyable, but I can't recommend this hell to anybody in good conscience, which really sucks because I love MW4's online component and have good memories of that. This definitely is not that experience.

Quote

https://mwomercs.com...layer-opinions/

But I know that when you're new/ish to the game having things like "backup weapons" or having a diverse loadout to do damage at different ranges or engagement types feels good. The problem is it's a crutch, and being able to do (usually quite small amounts of) damage tricks you into thinking "yeah, I'm putting in work!" That's a bit of an illusion unfortunately.

If this game were a bit more "realistic" or simulator/ARMA style or something, then yeah, you might see more use of mixed loadouts but it's really not that way. The best way to build mechs is to be as brutally effective as possible.

A single light laser to "defend against lights" isn't going to help. It's not going to kill lights, and you're giving up slots/heat/etc that could be better used elsewhere. A single rac, while it fires fast, just doesn't have enough damage on its own to do much of anything. An LB5 and LB2 aren't enough damage to deter anything, and they fire at different rates. That means when you move into/out of cover, they're going to shoot at weird times and you're going to be further decreasing your ability to put out effective damage.

You need builds where the weapons really synchronize well, which is why you rarely see more than 2 different weapons on mechs. That means when an enemy comes into your effective range, you are doing as much damage as possible. If you have a million different weapons, you're just going to be shooting spitballs at them. A single rac2? Useless at 600m and useless at 300m.

It's going to feel like you're taking a big risk, but giving up backup weapons and mixed loadouts will see you improve. How do you counter facing an enemy in a non optimal range for you? Avoid getting in that engagement. Play the game so the odds are in your favour, don't try and build for every possibility. Stack the dice. You do that by being in good positions, in good ranges to do as much damage as possible.

Trust me, your stats/damage/skills will improve once you take something which feels at first feels a bit riskier (even though it's not).

Look at the above UAC5/UAC10 combo. That thing will spit out tons of damage at pretty much all the ranges needed in quickplay. A nice high burst if something turns a corner on you, and if you've got a good position on the enemy you can just pump out DPS as long as the jam luck is in your favour. Your not slapping unneeded backup weapons or extra long range poking weapons or anything like that. Just pure, simple ballistic fury.


I should try boated quick damage builds like this more as I think that's the only thing I haven't tried. I'm doing the other things though strategy wise, because some of my builds are strictly sub 300m and I have to play completely different for those builds than my builds that are 500m. I have games where I go off from this strategy, but I know this is the correct way

Edited by TrowaBarton, 19 January 2020 - 02:43 PM.


#99 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 07:23 PM

View PostTrowaBarton, on 19 January 2020 - 02:42 PM, said:

I should try boated quick damage builds like this more as I think that's the only thing I haven't tried. I'm doing the other things though strategy wise, because some of my builds are strictly sub 300m and I have to play completely different for those builds than my builds that are 500m. I have games where I go off from this strategy, but I know this is the correct way


Just some questions... How well do you know the maps? For instance, do you know what "Death Valley" is in Rubellite and NOT to go there especially as a slow Assault? Do you use the D4 platform on Mining, or the opposite side if you have JJs and are fast enough to get there? Do you know about the C4 crashed dropship area in Hibernal that offers a nice power-position?

The mid/long range loadouts that you bring work very well when you know the maps and specific parts of it.

#100 Ilfi

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 07:37 PM

Is Dim Sum still stuck in Tier 5?





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