58 replies to this topic

[Curccu]

arcana75, on 28 January 2019 - 02:38 AM, said:

I want to know the official position. If Fire Control and mouse button timing software are allowed and doing this macro to double DPS is allowed, then I want to know.

Macros are allowed (auto tag, not so much clicking UACs)

But https://mwomercs.com/conduct says pretty clearly.
"
The following actions are strictly forbidden:

• Exploiting game bugs or mechanics to gain any unfair advantages or benefits, either for yourself, your teammates, or players on the opposing team.

"

Edited by Curccu, 28 January 2019 - 02:48 AM.

[Gen Lee]

Wow, that is pretty messed up. I've never considered macros giving a big advantage to players who use them in the past. A small advantage, maybe. But this is too much, It actually makes it possible to put out more damage in a shorter amount of time, almost double the damage, with less heat. My worry is that they either won't do anything about this, or they will and will screw up RACs in the process. I'm not really against players using macros, but this is clearly an advantage that exploits in-game mechanics in ways a normal player never could.

[Monkey Lover]

Gen Lee, on 28 January 2019 - 03:38 AM, said:

Wow, that is pretty messed up. I've never considered macros giving a big advantage to players who use them in the past. A small advantage, maybe. But this is too much, It actually makes it possible to put out more damage in a shorter amount of time, almost double the damage, with less heat. My worry is that they either won't do anything about this, or they will and will screw up RACs in the process. I'm not really against players using macros, but this is clearly an advantage that exploits in-game mechanics in ways a normal player never could.

Look how they tried to fix the heat bug lol. They didn't fix it and now we all die as soon as a ST is shot off. I would sell all my Rac2 stock

Edited by Monkey Lover, 28 January 2019 - 04:09 AM.

[Gen Lee]

Monkey Lover, on 28 January 2019 - 04:08 AM, said:

Look how they tried to fix the heat bug lol. They didn't fix it and now we all die as soon as a ST is shot off. I would sell all my Rac2 stock

With PGIs record of fixing things, my money is on them making changes to RACs that nerf them, either directly or indirectly, or cause some sort of other problem. I've heard this also affects stuff like machine guns...any chance that this is also being exploited by machine gun boats like Piranhas? This would lend more credit to some players' claims that Piranha's were killing them from behind too fast for them to do anything about it. That would be even more broken than RACs throwing out damage almost twice as fast, considering something like this would become exponentially more broken the more weapons it's used with.

[General Solo]

crazytimes, on 28 January 2019 - 02:35 AM, said:

Nearly doubles the dps- and lets you do it again before overheating or jamming.

If it is legal, be silly to not use it. I've got a 3xrac2 nightstar that would benefit immensely from this.

Mang did u know macros actually lower ur dps, Group fire unless overheatin or saving ammo
Love coring macro's
Got to ignore the noise, then silence

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 28 January 2019 - 04:27 AM.

[Curccu]

OZHomerOZ, on 28 January 2019 - 04:25 AM, said:

Mang did u know macros actually lower ur dps, Group fire unless overheatin or saving ammo
Love coring macro's
Got to ignore the noise, then silence

In this case they increase DPS. Watch the OP video, go and test it.

[GweNTLeR]

El Bandito, on 27 January 2019 - 09:59 PM, said:

It will also depend on the latency and server stability. Those will low latency will be able to exploit it better than those with high latency. Also, it works better in Solaris since few players would be in match to affect server performance.

Now that you mentioned it, I just realized I played a few matches against a guy with similar RAC behaviour in solaris in previous season. To say that I was shocked with dps is to say nothing, now it makes some perfect sense. Looks like someone is already exploiting it.
Solaris is such a dirty gamemode...

Edited by GweNTLeR, 28 January 2019 - 04:59 AM.

[Ilfi]

I'm willing to bet that if you maths it out, a macro'd RAC boat has better damage per "tick" than the ever-popular HLL + ERML Clan Laser vomit -- with less heat and an infinite burn. You can claim burst beats DPS come Hell or high water, but if RAC-ros end up having stronger burns than actual laser burns, then there's not much reason to use anything else.

I'm not a numbers guy, but I'd love if we had one.

[El Bandito]

crazytimes, on 28 January 2019 - 02:35 AM, said:

Nearly doubles the dps- and lets you do it again before overheating or jamming.

If it is legal, be silly to not use it. I've got a 3xrac2 nightstar that would benefit immensely from this.

In my tests in private lobby against another person, the RAC micro increases overall DPS by 25% in average before overheating/jamming (when tested with 3xRAC2s and using 0.001 sec intervals). However, free 25% DPS increase is still very good.

Perhaps there are better intervals for even more DPS increase but I aint gonna use such an exploit.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 January 2019 - 06:42 AM.

[Verilligo]

Ilfi, on 28 January 2019 - 05:17 AM, said:

I'm willing to bet that if you maths it out, a macro'd RAC boat has better damage per "tick" than the ever-popular HLL + ERML Clan Laser vomit -- with less heat and an infinite burn. You can claim burst beats DPS come Hell or high water, but if RAC-ros end up having stronger burns than actual laser burns, then there's not much reason to use anything else.

I'm not a numbers guy, but I'd love if we had one.

I'm pretty sure even without the macro a triple RAC2 build does more DPS than Clan laser vomit. That's not the reason people are attracted to Clan laser vomit in the first place, though. However, based on Kana's test, it seems like triple RAC2 was killing the Atlas D in 11-12s in testing grounds so that's about 15-16 DPS required to do so, given the stock armor loadout (122 + 62) on said Atlas. With the macro, it was killing in 7s, so that's ~26 DPS required. On live server, likely slightly lower than that for both.

What I'm curious about is whether certain fire control settings can lead to higher or lower DPS output. I mean it seems like there's a sweet spot where you can click again and get it just right so that you're forcing extra bullets out, you just need to have a computer program in order to physically do so. This might be influenced by spool-up time of the RAC. Would also be interesting to see what a triple RAC5 Anni could pump out with the macro, given it might be able to avoid ghost heat to a significant extent.

[Curccu]

Verilligo, on 28 January 2019 - 06:30 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure even without the macro a triple RAC2 build does more DPS than Clan laser vomit. That's not the reason people are attracted to Clan laser vomit in the first place, though. However, based on Kana's test, it seems like triple RAC2 was killing the Atlas D in 11-12s in testing grounds so that's about 15-16 DPS required to do so, given the stock armor loadout (122 + 62) on said Atlas. With the macro, it was killing in 7s, so that's ~26 DPS required. On live server, likely slightly lower than that for both.

What I'm curious about is whether certain fire control settings can lead to higher or lower DPS output. I mean it seems like there's a sweet spot where you can click again and get it just right so that you're forcing extra bullets out, you just need to have a computer program in order to physically do so. This might be influenced by spool-up time of the RAC. Would also be interesting to see what a triple RAC5 Anni could pump out with the macro, given it might be able to avoid ghost heat to a significant extent.

Higher DPS yes, higher burst DPS no.
and those DPS numbers ingame and smurfys and so on do they include jam bar going down? I don't think it does, if someone has tested/calculated pleases tell.

I don't think you can avoid ghostheat because of it's 500ms overlap trigger, but sure tapping firebutton with macro lowers overall heat gained

[LordNothing]

you could low pass filter the inputs in software to avoid things like this happening (i know ive written more than my fair share of debounce code). it would probably break a lot of macros and drive legit macro users nuts. but that just glosses over the fact that there is something wonky in the mechanics that lets you avoid the jams.

if i were to speculate id say a counter was getting reset when the key is lifted. so that when the game checks to see if the rng needs to do a jam roll or not it finds that the gun hasn't been active for long enough and skips the jam roll. the value shown in the bar is just ui animation which may be timed and not hard linked to the actual counter value (there are reasons to do this, like to fix jerky animations). the fix there is to rather than do a hard reset, to count it down over time.

i personally would get rid of the jam roll and make the bar take a little longer to fill up, but when it does the gun always jams, but thats just me.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 January 2019 - 07:45 AM.

[R Valentine]

PGI can't even be bothered to ban TKers on stream where there's video evidence. You really think a RAC macroer is gonna get banned? What planet do you guys even live on? Chris is just gonna come out and go, "NOPE!! DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY TESTING GROUND BUGGED! NOT CONCLUSIVE! MACRO NO MAKE GUN BETTAH!"

[Curccu]

Kiran Yagami, on 28 January 2019 - 07:13 AM, said:

PGI can't even be bothered to ban TKers on stream where there's video evidence. You really think a RAC macroer is gonna get banned? What planet do you guys even live on? Chris is just gonna come out and go, "NOPE!! DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY TESTING GROUND BUGGED! NOT CONCLUSIVE! MACRO NO MAKE GUN BETTAH!"

why so mad? did
few of my "not so nice playing while drunk" friends have gotten temp bans from foul language and TK.

[Variant1]

ban macros, they give control group advantage over other players

learn 2 hold down the tag button
and use more than 2 weapon groups please
That way racs wont need to be nerfed

[Nightbird]

Why would RACs be nerfed? All they'll do is ban the exploiters, they're pretty good about that

[Yondu Udonta]

Anyone wanna make bets for how long PGI will take to fix the bug?

[Bud Crue]

Yondu Udonta, on 28 January 2019 - 08:53 AM, said:

Anyone wanna make bets for how long PGI will take to fix the bug?

Whelp, since Chris I believe is on record saying it doesn’t exist (i.e. there is no bug according to PGI), I don’t think it will get fixed. I mean, I know PGI often breaks what isn’t broke, but fixing something they think doesn’t exist would be unprecedented I think. Now if you want to place bets on the next weapon system that Chris decides to randomly nerf, then by all means lets go. That sort of thing is inevitable.

[Acersecomic]

LordNothing, on 28 January 2019 - 07:07 AM, said:

i personally would get rid of the jam roll and make the bar take a little longer to fill up, but when it does the gun always jams, but thats just me.

Why not have RACs fired for too long cause weapon/mech suffer overheat damage and weapon destruction if fired for too long, instead of jam chance.

Edited by Acersecomic, 28 January 2019 - 09:29 AM.

[Verilligo]

LordNothing, on 28 January 2019 - 07:07 AM, said:

you could low pass filter the inputs in software to avoid things like this happening (i know ive written more than my fair share of debounce code). it would probably break a lot of macros and drive legit macro users nuts. but that just glosses over the fact that there is something wonky in the mechanics that lets you avoid the jams.

if i were to speculate id say a counter was getting reset when the key is lifted. so that when the game checks to see if the rng needs to do a jam roll or not it finds that the gun hasn't been active for long enough and skips the jam roll. the value shown in the bar is just ui animation which may be timed and not hard linked to the actual counter value (there are reasons to do this, like to fix jerky animations). the fix there is to rather than do a hard reset, to count it down over time.

i personally would get rid of the jam roll and make the bar take a little longer to fill up, but when it does the gun always jams, but thats just me.

I don't think the jam roll is even the biggest issue here. The issue is that there seems to be a way of feathering the fire button that causes the gun to fire a bullet sooner than it's supposed to. The weapon itself is supposed to be limited to only firing a bullet X seconds after the previous one fired, or immediately upon reaching full spool. But if you lift off the fire button immediately after firing your bullet at full spool, your gun will start despooling and when you spool back up you'll immediately fire another bullet once you reach full spool again. This means that if you can despool for 0.05s, then all it takes is an input duration of ~0.05s to reach full spool again, firing off a bullet. Humanly, this isn't possible, but you can use the macro to adjust it all you need. The side effect of this is that you're also not being charged jam duration and heat per bullet, only per amount of time that you're fully spooled up.

Simplest solution might just be to force the weapon to wait the X seconds after reaching full spool before firing the first round. It'll delay when the RACs start firing by a small amount, but you can change the spool time to make up for it.