65 replies to this topic

[Roughneck45]

PhoenixFire55, on 03 February 2019 - 08:26 AM, said:

Mechs should be balanced around their real strength, not around their ups and downs in the 'waa waa I'm scared I'm only gonna peek like a timid ****' kind of gameplay

lol wut

[Angel of Annihilation]

Jman5, on 02 February 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

The thing that I'm trying to get at is that when I see a madcat MK2 I know it's usually going to be 1 of 2 builds and I know exactly how to attack both of them. When I see a Banshee I have no idea what I'm going to get. Lasers? PPCs? ballistics? I don't know what its quirks are, or where exactly all the hardpoints are located. Is it an unusually agile mech? I don't know. What kind of engine is it running? How hot does it run?

Lets take a madcat MKII.

If it's a B variant that it's almost certainly going to run dual UAC/5+10 combo. They're all located in their arms. Otherwise it's centertorso hitbox is pretty generous including the plate between its legs. The best way to attack it is to target arms if you see any weak ones, or just grind down its CT. If it twists a bunch focus on the plate. Since it's uacs what you want to do is watch its guns next to the paperdoll until at least 2 jam up and then commit to a full on attack. If it overheats its cockpit is bottom middle of the middle glass panel.

I know its got no relevant quirks and its agility is nothing to write home about.

Now I could sit down and figure out the Banshee just like I have with the Madcat. However the fact that I hardly ever see them, mean it's not worth it taking up the headspace. Instead I just put it in the generic IS assault category.

You do bring up a valid point. IS mechs tend to have A LOT of variation in them. I mean there are always meta builds but because they can be tweaked in so many ways you never really know what is coming at you.

Clan mechs on the other hand, even the Battlemech variants seem to have very predictable builds for the most part.

However, I think any time your dealing with a popular mech vs an unpopular one, your going to find you have an advantage against the one you see very commonly in battles. This is why I never felt the KDK-3 was OP even when it was OP, because I knew exactly what I was dealing with and knew exactly how to deal with it. Same for the Annihilator which is another mech I felt released rather OP. Still I never felt it needed a nerf because again, I learned how to deal with them and they became alot less scary.

I think this might be why I get frustrated at threads like this calling for a nerf. Just because a mech is strong doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Have I gotten totally worked over by a Madcat Mk II. You bet. The B variant is a beast with its Dual UAC/10, Dual UAC/5 build. However I have been worked over by dozens of other mechs and builds as well. That doesn't make them OP. Also, like you mention, because I see them quite often, I know how to deal with them and the reality is they are quite squish. The leg armor is always stripped to very low levels, the arms where most of their weapons are located are very easy to remove from the mech, a ST loss pretty much renders them useless and the CT is rather easy to hit.

[dario03]

Angel of Annihilation, on 03 February 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

This is how I kind of feel. Also and I know this is brought up time and time again but something has to be strongest even it is is only 1% strong. If and I will say I don't necessarily believe this but if the Madcat Mk II is the strongest and you nerf it to the point its not any more, then that means something else is the strongest. That being the case, do we nerf that too? How the next one that becomes the strongest, nerf again?

I think what people have to consider is if the mech is overpowering and unbeatable or just strong? Strong is ok. Overpowering and unbeatable is not however if it was that OP, then 50% or more of the entire team make up would be Madcat Mk IIs, kind of like the scenerio was when we had KDK-3s roving the battlefield with Quad UAC/10s and agility stats that would make a medium weep with joy. I am not seeing that, in fact I see just about as many Annihilators, Fafnirs, Marauder IICs, Blood Asps, Cyclops as I do Madcat Mk IIs. Since we are seeing a good mix of those other assault as well as the Madcat Mk II, I strongly doubt there is any concern with the Madcat Mk II being OP.

Or there could just be balance issues across the weight classes. I don't see any issue with going through and nerfing some top performers. We just got quadruple nerfs to the piranha and its not as good of a qp mech as the Madcat MKII. So nerf some of those top performers and buff some of the under performers. Some slight changes here and there to nudge balance, doesn't have to be a major shift.

[lobsterhierarchy]

Honestly, we shouldn’t be needing the MkII, we should be buffing other clan assaults to force a choice. HGN IIC used to be decent but when was the last time you saw one of those or kodiaks in FP? If it’s not a Blood Asp or a MkII, you rarely see it outside of the comp circle. Dire Whales are making a resurgence (ultraviolet and big dakka builds), but warhawks have been straight up garbage, Gargoyles can be fun but only in a big group of brawlers or yolo queue, the executioner is trash with its low mounted arms and locked gear, MADIIC still has good laser vom - but why take the tonnage and slow speed when an Ebon jag or noobbringer does it better (ok let’s disregard scorch because that is a hilariously fun derp build)? Supernova is hot trash with poor hitboxes and infamous for the potato A LRM variant that hurts your team more than the enemy (srsly, the nova cat, Orion, or hunchie IIc does it better anyway).

It’s not so much that the mad cat is good, it’s just all the other assaults, barring a few special cases, are just garbage. There used to be a funny quote about doubling your caution if you don’t see a Jade Falcon in one of three mechs - I think it should be updated:

“If you don’t see a Jaded Faction player using an Ebon Jaguar, Hellbringer, Huntsman, Night Gyr, Piranha, or Mad Cat MkII, double your caution...”

[Grus]

Mk2 isnt always the go to assault, the kdk3 can and does dakka as well as the B. The Supernova can boat ErL and because of quirks better at it. Then there the lurm supernova... marauders are still a damn fine assault and have plenty of viable builds that are near or at speed of heavy mechs. FW is the place where you'll see a bigger spread of assaults than QP.

QP is more of a "you want a mech "good" at many things" kind of play for me. The mk2b with the standard dakka build has a nicest mid range damage and if you need to hit something a little further away just tap your 5's and get them back in cover.

[Luminis]

Kubernetes, on 03 February 2019 - 11:44 AM, said:

The IV4 is certainly up there for me too (along with the Hellbringer, DS, and Victor...Top Dog might be up here too). Thing about the MCII-B is that it's the only mech I've used that can singlehandedly stop a push dead in its tracks. It's the KDK-3 except with JJ and lower arm actuators. It's just sooooo good.

Between the IV4 and the MCII-B, I'd definitely consider the IV4 to be the stronger Mech, at least for me, personally. Partially because people underestimate it because a 60-tonner and just don't realise the insane damage MRM60 can deal with its big **** quirks. The Mad Cat has a certain scare factor the IV4 lacks, though - it's amazing how, at times, two or more Mechs duck back into cover instead of engaging me.

This, however, is both a blessing and a curse. I love when some unaware Assault decides he can take a fresh 60-tonner in a brawl because, well, it's just 60 tons. What could go wrong...

Angel of Annihilation, on 03 February 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

If and I will say I don't necessarily believe this but if the Madcat Mk II is the strongest and you nerf it to the point its not any more, then that means something else is the strongest. That being the case, do we nerf that too? How the next one that becomes the strongest, nerf again?

I mean, that wouldn't even be that bad. If - and only if - PGI wasn't prone to completely overshooting the target and never touching nerfed Mechs again (I still suspect they don't reset their performance data, but that's just me). Like the TBR, for example. Completely outclassed in most ways, but it still retains absolutely appalling mobility because it was hot stuff three years ago. The way it is, I prefer they just don't mess with anything that isn't a very clear outlier.

And since the most obvious and most extreme outliers are underpowered Mechs, I want PGI to start buffing. Well, except for lock-on homing weapons. Those they can nerf to hell and back for all I care.

Grus, on 04 February 2019 - 06:27 AM, said:

QP is more of a "you want a mech "good" at many things" kind of play for me. The mk2b with the standard dakka build has a nicest mid range damage and if you need to hit something a little further away just tap your 5's and get them back in cover.

Agreed. This has been said multiple times, but I think it bears repeating. The MCII-B's popularity does, to a rather large extend, stem from its versatility moreso than its outright "OPness".

Also, you mentioned the SNV-A... I think I see more SNV-As than MCIi-Bs, especially during events.

Edited by Luminis, 04 February 2019 - 07:04 AM.

[lobsterhierarchy]

I have a deep hate of SNV-As Luminis. Every time I see them on the enemy team I’m like, this is why we are winning 11-2 right now, this chachbag low skill player was sitting in the back not sharing armor for his team, or I say the reverse when said chachbag is on my team. If it wasn’t for penalties, I’d blow off a side torso before the enemy team came over to entice them. Sometimes I might accidentally paint SNV-A players with my arty smoke...

Have I mentioned I hate SNV-A**holes?

[R Valentine]

Given PGI's track record of nerf into utter garbage tier level then never, ever looking at that mech again, I don't want them to touch the Mad Cat Mk. II. Sure the Piranha has been hit by multiple nerfs, but so has the Annihilator. The Anni 2A barely has any armor quirks left. Meanwhile, IV4 is in an obnoxious state, with double the armor quirks of the Anni 2A and the mobility and jjs of a medium. I'd say IV4 is a worse QP offender than the Mad Cat Mk. II.

[K O Z A K]

Kiran Yagami, on 04 February 2019 - 08:19 AM, said:

Given PGI's track record of nerf into utter garbage tier level then never, ever looking at that mech again, I don't want them to touch the Mad Cat Mk. II. Sure the Piranha has been hit by multiple nerfs, but so has the Annihilator. The Anni 2A barely has any armor quirks left. Meanwhile, IV4 is in an obnoxious state, with double the armor quirks of the Anni 2A and the mobility and jjs of a medium. I'd say IV4 is a worse QP offender than the Mad Cat Mk. II.

Shhhh! Or they'll blanket nerf mrms or something

[Bud Crue]

Hazeclaw, on 04 February 2019 - 08:23 AM, said:

Shhhh! Or they'll blanket nerf mrms or something

Bah.

They won’t hit MRMs. When they hit the IV-4 they will flip its armor to structure (as they tried to do once before “by accident”) and then nerf its missile quirks, and outright eliminate its energy and ballistics quirks, because reasons. Then for good measure they will, since this is PGI, nerf the non-hero Quickies as well, asserting that they are over performing the other even crapier 60 ton mechs that no one plays, and then note that as part of their review of the 60 ton weight class, the Dragon will lose its UAC jam chance quirk since we can’t have a mech where one single build dominates on a variant. Finally, they will give one of the Maddog variants a ERPPC set of 8 omnipod quirk because Chris says clans need more “flavor” quirks.

Edited by Bud Crue, 04 February 2019 - 08:46 AM.

[Acersecomic]

CoffeeKitty, on 02 February 2019 - 04:27 AM, said:

Fafnir is probably the best assault in the game right now, and sleipnir is ******* amazing as well, i'd rather either of them when piloted well over the MCII-b or DS, the reason MCII seems "op" is cause it's skill floor to alpha is low, but i rarely see them doing more than 700 damage a match in PSR tier 1

Most of my MCII-B matches today were over 700 and a significant number were over 1000, 1100 and 1200. Today was a good day to mount U-AC/20 and double U-AC/10.
And its alpha "skill floor" is very low yes, my build throws 80 alpha on double tap every 3.little seconds. It's a freak running at 69km/h, moving like a mobileish heavy (due to mobility tree, on top of some Operations, half the Firepower and full Survival trees), has excellent hitboxes...
It's a great mech overall but because of its ability to mount ballistics in arms move its arms both horizontaly and verticaly... it's just brutal and very comfortable to use.

Edited by Acersecomic, 05 February 2019 - 08:21 AM.

[PhilTKaswahl]

Hazeclaw, on 04 February 2019 - 08:23 AM, said:

Shhhh! Or they'll blanket nerf mrms or something

Gods, I hope MRMs never generate enough salt or "overperformance" to warrant that. MRMs have become my favorite missile system in the game, especially paired with LBs.

There's just something so satisfying about seeing heavies or assaults disappearing behind a stream of missiles and 'Mech-scale buckshot then finding a burning wreck where they used to be after you twist back.

[Acersecomic]

PhilTKaswahl, on 05 February 2019 - 08:30 AM, said:

Gods, I hope MRMs never generate enough salt or "overperformance" to warrant that. MRMs have become my favorite missile system in the game, especially paired with LBs.

There's just something so satisfying about seeing heavies or assaults disappearing behind a stream of missiles and 'Mech-scale buckshot then finding a burning wreck where they used to be after you twist back.

Would be extremely funny and tarded if they nerf MRMs when the LRMs are the problem and they keep buffing them.

[Y E O N N E]

Leave the MCII alone, buff Nightstars instead.

UAC/10 HSL+1 for the 9P, pls.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

Hell, I'd just be happy with Hand Actuators -100% for Nightstars right now, especially the PGI variants.

[A Really Old Clan Dude]

I have played the MCII-B for enough games to say it has fantastic burst damage. One on one or adding to a group targeting a mech it deletes armour very quickly.
I run 2 AC10 ultra,2 AC 5 ultra, 2 small pulse and 2 srm 2's.

positives
great burst damage, AC hit blinding the opposition always
arms track most mechs well for a fairly wide angle
fast for an assault, at 64 kph keeps up with and stays with the front line in the nascar
negatives
not many
torso twisting is still slow, but then so are most assaults
big hit boxes make it easy to hit

MAD CAT MK II MCII-B 732 454 277 1.64 812 449 1.81

[Acersecomic]

A Really Old Clan Dude, on 05 February 2019 - 05:00 PM, said:

MAD CAT MK II MCII-B 732 454 277 1.64 812 449 1.81

MCII-B
Matches Played - 57
Wins - 39
Losses - 17
Ratio - 2.17
Kills - 72
Deaths - 37
Ratio - 1.95

Running U-AC/20 and x2 U-AC/10 with 4t ammo each + Clan Active Probe + 7 Double Heat Sinks. (Ferro, Double, Endo)
Build - A89D40^1|l^|l^|l^|l^|>fp61|l^|l^|RRq61|l^|l<2rl0|gB|SRsl0|fB|fB|RRt31|SR|SRu31|RR|RRv?0|SRw606060
Skills- a050307cc01ce5875baefefffff62101cff7f0000e8670000000000000000

With this build for Heat Gen, UAC Jam Duration, two Magazine nodes, full Survival (no AMS), first top row of Operations and full Speed Tweak with minor torso/anchor nodes.
It deals 80 doubletap alpha every 3.4 seconds (if you wait for U-AC/20 because U-AC/10 has 2.4s cooldown, otherwise it's continuous hail of bullets), it moves at 69.7 hm/h speed and handles like a heavier heavy when it turns torso and anchor.
It's a Mad Cat indeed.
True, I have less than ten times matches played than you so my results are better due to smaller sample, but give it a try

Edited by Acersecomic, 05 February 2019 - 05:38 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

dario03, on 04 February 2019 - 05:40 AM, said:

Or there could just be balance issues across the weight classes. I don't see any issue with going through and nerfing some top performers. We just got quadruple nerfs to the piranha and its not as good of a qp mech as the Madcat MKII. So nerf some of those top performers and buff some of the under performers. Some slight changes here and there to nudge balance, doesn't have to be a major shift.

But I don't see any issues myself. Both Clan and IS have strong mechs across all weight classes so there is no imbalance. I am sorry, a Madcat Mk II isn't any better than a Fafnir and no more troll than a Cyclops sporting six SRM6 launcher or 80+ MRMs or however many they can fit in there. We nerf the Madcat Mk II, then we have to nerf the Fafnir or the Cyclops too. Maybe we go after the Direwolf again since there are some crazy builds for that. How about the Atlas, I mean I can pull some crazy stuff off in my Atlas thanks to all the quirks. Where does it stop?

Also If there is any issue, it is that there are so many under performing mechs out there so buff, don't nerf. Nerfing pisses people off. Buffing makes them happy. Pretty simple concept.

lobsterhierarchy, on 04 February 2019 - 07:15 AM, said:

I have a deep hate of SNV-As Luminis. Every time I see them on the enemy team I’m like, this is why we are winning 11-2 right now, this chachbag low skill player was sitting in the back not sharing armor for his team, or I say the reverse when said chachbag is on my team. If it wasn’t for penalties, I’d blow off a side torso before the enemy team came over to entice them. Sometimes I might accidentally paint SNV-A players with my arty smoke...

Have I mentioned I hate SNV-A**holes?

SNV-A make excellent LRM boats. Mount up 2xLRM15 or 2xLRM20, toss in 4xMPL and 2xSRM6 so you can get up in the enemy's faces, smack them around and support the team by sharing armor while getting your own locks for devastating results.

Problem isn't the mech or LRMs. Problem is behind the keyboard.

[Y E O N N E]

IdToaster, on 05 February 2019 - 03:39 PM, said:

Hell, I'd just be happy with Hand Actuators -100% for Nightstars right now, especially the PGI variants.

I think IS UAC/10 should have HSL+1 made into a global attribute because 3x UAC/10 = 39 tons and 21 slots while 2x cUAC/10 + 2x cUAC/5 = 34 tons and 14 slots, but I'll take it on just one the chassis too.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 05 February 2019 - 08:40 PM.

[dario03]

Angel of Annihilation, on 05 February 2019 - 06:56 PM, said:

But I don't see any issues myself. Both Clan and IS have strong mechs across all weight classes so there is no imbalance. I am sorry, a Madcat Mk II isn't any better than a Fafnir and no more troll than a Cyclops sporting six SRM6 launcher or 80+ MRMs or however many they can fit in there. We nerf the Madcat Mk II, then we have to nerf the Fafnir or the Cyclops too. Maybe we go after the Direwolf again since there are some crazy builds for that. How about the Atlas, I mean I can pull some crazy stuff off in my Atlas thanks to all the quirks. Where does it stop?

Also If there is any issue, it is that there are so many under performing mechs out there so buff, don't nerf. Nerfing pisses people off. Buffing makes them happy. Pretty simple concept.

I was talking about weight classes not is vs clan, so light vs medium vs heavy vs assault.