332 replies to this topic

[Kargush]

Kristov Kerensky, on 02 January 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Kargush, outside of MW4, jump sniping or poptarting, didn't exist as a viable tactic that entire TEAMS used every single drop. You could attempt it in MW1/2/3 and the GEnie MPBT, Solaris MPBT and the BattleTech 3025 beta, but it was always a trick shot, NOT a tactic you relied on for more then those 'holy hell did you SEE that shot!' moments. It's even possible to try it in TT..but using it every single shot? That ONLY existed in 1 single iteration of the game, MW4.

Alpha shot..exists in TT and all versions of the MW games(MA is NOT included in that list btw, please stop trying to include it).
Legging..exists in TT and all versions of the MW games.
Boating..exist in TT and all versions of the MW games.
Jump sniping..exist only in MW4 as anything but a one off situation, in MW4 it is THE most commonly used tactic.

So..you see..my little song was quite on target there.

I see you never played MWLL then. Pop-tarting happens there too. And I've been the target of it more than once.

As for the "entire teams" part of your argument, why are you moving goal posts? I never said anything about teams, I have just made it plain that I consider it a valid tactic, and if someone wants to pop-tart, they should be allowed to do so.

And once again, there are no arguments against pop-tarting other than things that boil down to "I don't like it" or "I think it's unfair/unsporting/dishonorable" or a variant of those.

[Yeach]

Kristov Kerensky, on 02 January 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Kargush, outside of MW4, jump sniping or poptarting, didn't exist as a viable tactic that entire TEAMS used every single drop. You could attempt it in MW1/2/3 and the GEnie MPBT, Solaris MPBT and the BattleTech 3025 beta, but it was always a trick shot, NOT a tactic you relied on for more then those 'holy hell did you SEE that shot!' moments. It's even possible to try it in TT..but using it every single shot? That ONLY existed in 1 single iteration of the game, MW4.

Alpha shot..exists in TT and all versions of the MW games(MA is NOT included in that list btw, please stop trying to include it).
Legging..exists in TT and all versions of the MW games.
Boating..exist in TT and all versions of the MW games.
Jump sniping..exist only in MW4 as anything but a one off situation, in MW4 it is THE most commonly used tactic.

So..you see..my little song was quite on target there.

Disagree. Jumpsniping was a very very viable tactic in MW3 single-player. Almost got through an entire campaign with a jump-sniping ERLL firefly.
If it was not for MW3 multiplayer lag, I would bet that it would have been a tactic in multi-player as well.

As for jump-sniping, not many mechs could do it in MW4:V and even they were limited by number of HP (max of 3 ERLL) and weight and ammo (Gauss rifle)
I blame it on MW4: BK and the PR3 patch (which increased range for PPCs) for ruining that balance when they allowed the BlackKnight to mount 4 ERPPCs.
I havent downloaded the free Mektek patch but I hear its worse because of it. (And if it is you cannot blame MW4 developers for increasing that problem)

Extra thought. What ever happened to zig-zagging and using terrain to get into-close range?

Edited by Yeach, 02 January 2012 - 12:29 PM.

[Kargush]

Yeach, on 02 January 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

Extra thought. What ever happened to zig-zagging and using terrain to get into-close range?

[Joke]Requires brains, and brains are hard to use.[/joke]

[Kristov Kerensky]

Kargush, no, I've never played MWLL..a beta version of a free mod that's not included in the list of BTech video games any more then MekTek is..which was at least a mod of an existing MW game title and still doesn't qualify as a MW product. And if poptarting is a valid and much used tactic in MWLL, I see no reason to consider buying a game I have NO interest in just so I can install the mod. I quit playing MW4 long before MekTek was released due to the poptarting issues, I see no reason to revisit something I don't enjoy. I've seen lots of MWLL videos..I'm far from impressed with the game play..looks awesome, sounds great, plays like a cross between MW4 and MA. Some people like that, but then again, those 2 titles did kill the franchise, so take it for what it is.

Yeach, prior to MW4, you could indeed jump up and snipe at people, but it wasn't easy, it wasn't tactically viable, and it was just, as I said, something you did for those 'holy hell did you SEE that' moments. What you did in the single player games(seriously, you really tried to equate what you did against AI with what is done against players?) has no bearing on anything, and your 'if the lag' disclaimer is weak..to put it nicely. Nailing Mechs at 1km in MW2/3 wasn't that hard, quite a few of us made names for ourselves in the MW communities doing that consistantly regardless of lag..and in MW2, 3 second ping weren't all that rare, we considered anything under 2 seconds to be great, so you REALLY want to try using that as why you didn't see poptarting in MW2/3? Or can we just stick with the fact that it wasn't tactically viable due to how the actual mechanics of aim and jumping worked? Did we do it on occasion..yes, I remember doing it in MW3 on specific maps at very specific times vividly, fun way to mess with your opponent, but that's all it was, psyops, killing via that method was a purely luck thing..'holy hell did you SEE that shot' as you got a headshot. Entire lines of Mechs doing that every time on that map..never happened, entire lines of Mechs doing that on every map, both teams, all the time? Never happened prior to MW4.

As for what made it that way in MW4..that is simple, MicroSoft did it. Poptarters were already the tactic du jour when MekTek was first released, they actually put in FIXES that made it less viable..guess what..the PLAYERBASE demanded those fixes be an optional setting, not default. Wonder why it's not used much...hmmm. Put the blame where it belongs, Microsoft and the playerbase. I got my issues with MekTek, and I'll give verybad(our resident MekTek dev, give the man his respect) guff about it, but they tried to fix a broken game and I think they did in many ways, if you use what they made.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Yeach, on 02 January 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

Extra thought. What ever happened to zig-zagging and using terrain to get into-close range?

Zig zagging only works if your mech has both the speed and the turn rate otherwise your just making it easier to hit your legs, Terrain is nice but a experienced poptart will know what breaks to watch and getting shot and hiding behind cover is no better then another mech shooting you and then hiding.

There are only a few answers to poptarts that work well, one being quicker reflexes and weapons that cause alot of 'knock'(chain firing lighter UAC weapons is hilarious), stealth is very nice if you can avoid being spotted long enough. Light and medium mechs can avoid fire/use cover but one hit is usually a death sentence: they will be going for your legs and even if they hit you somewhere else so much firepower drilling you will most likely throw your mech to the ground making you a easy target for the next solvo. You can close with them to bring to bare a single big infighter gun or simply rely on your mechs agility to run circles around the fatties, but if they get lucky or have a friend your toast. Max ranging them with a very small and quick mech is a favorite method of mine, as poptarts tend to rely on a straight up and down approach, clearing the hills just enough to fire there weapons but this means there easy to snipe while on the run as you know exactly where to aim..(a 100kph wolfhound at 800 meters firing at you with a ppc is damn hard to hit with direct fire weaponry, and a smart wolfhound pilot will have squeezed reflective armor on.)

though this all is by MW4:merc standards, MWO is taking us back to the heyday of 600 meters being 'extreme range' that was always a problem I had with mw4, a kilometer sure didnt feel like a kilometer.

[Zerokei]

Wow, this thread has so much fail in it, it's kinda rediculous, never seen so many people cry in one place before. Unfair and fair tactics? It's freakin war, since when has anything in war been fair? Yeah, the clans have their code of conduct and so do the IS, clans had more advanced weapons, IS had ****, did the clans downgrade their stuff to fit in with their IS rivals? No. Did they strip down their mechs of their technology? No. See where I'm going with this?

To add to it, I don't know how many people are in the military here, but I am, I'm also in a line unit. We have a saying, "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying." Can you guess what that means for us?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Zerokei, first off, thank you for your service.

Honor is something a maiden has, not a tool on the battlefield. But guess what, even war has it's rules.

And..this is very important I might..

This isn't WAR..this is a video game, not reality, and all games have their rules. Cheating isn't condoned in a game, it's condemned, do try and remember that.

But..and this is important as well..PGI has stated that when they introduce the Clans, they ARE looking at ways of 'encouraging' Zellbringen and the honor system of the Clan players. Not punishing them for NOT following it, but rewarding them FOR following it. I fully expect to know within a very short time who the RP and non-RP Clan players are. I'll even wager that the RPers get more action then the non-RPers, and it won't be to get the tonnage advantages possible, same either way(stars vs lances).

[Renegen]

I dont like sniping, always preferred getting in close and have 1 on 1 honourable fights. But some sniping is normal, all armies have that, but it needs to be balanced by making the sniper vulnerable, or slow. they are support basically, not the main fighting force.

[Zerokei]

Kristov Kerensky, on 02 January 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

And..this is very important I might..

This isn't WAR..this is a video game, not reality, and all games have their rules. Cheating isn't condoned in a game, it's condemned, do try and remember that.

I think you misunderstood what I ment, I don't mean cheating in the form of hacks and codes and all that other BS. I ment it in as use your suroundings to your advantage, not the opponent. Playing in the confines of the rules and what you said PGI is inacting is fine, but I fail to see why everyone wants everyone else to play by their rules. If they do bring in Zellbringen, which I hope they do, I'll still be finding my little hills to jump over and attack as I slowly get closer. From what I've read, people here would see that as cheating or 'poptarting'. I just see it as a way of staying alive. If you want to run at me, fine. Different styles of game play are going to need to learn to get along.

Edit: As for cheating and hacking, I really hope this game doesn't go the way of other games with aim bots or some other crazy deal going on, that kind of thing has ruined far to many games for me. I'm sure I'm not the only here with these sentiments either.

Edited by Zerokei, 02 January 2012 - 02:52 PM.

[Jervinator]

Sniping happens in actual battles. This is BattleTech. If you don;t want sniping then prohibit any and all weapons with a range of more than 10 meters!

[Kargush]

Kristov Kerensky, on 02 January 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

*snip*

"No, I wasn't in for WWII, but back in WWI we didn't have automatic rifles, so I refuse to take part in the Korean War if we have to use them." That's the way you're beginning to sound.

But seriously, if *one* single tactic is made possible in the game, people refuse to play it? I can't even wrap my head around that.

And not a single argument against is anything but "I don't like" when you remove all the "back in my day" and posturing about skill and "honour."

[Karn Evil]

Most of us don't want sniping to be impossible - that would kill any sort of realism. What we want is for jumping up, having a perfectly smooth ride in a machine that weighs at least 20 tons, popping off a clean shot during that jump with all of your guns, and then dropping behind a hill, hiding behind that very same hill, and repeating, to be less of a viable tactic than it is in MW4. True pop-tarts aren't clever, they just use overwhelming firepower to down enemies in one shot. If they were clever they wouldn't stay behind the same hill every time.

Jump-sniping is absolutely fine if your ride shakes a bit on the way up. I've got nothing but respect for players who can pull off a clean shot in a mech that's shaking like a seizure victim because it's riding into the sky on a pillar of fire.

Edited by Karn Evil, 02 January 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[UberMex]

Sniping and long range combat is a part of battletech and mechwarrior. PPCs, Large Lasers and Guass rifles all are powerful longrange weapons, being able to hit a target at maximum distance is a testament to the pilot's skill.

I want to stress that long distance shots should be about skill (and sometimes dumb luck); Any issue I would have would be related to jump sniping. Think about the context in battletech, trying to hit any target while jumping came with a significant 'to hit' modifier. It would be a great turnoff for me if someone could easily jump snipe another mech.

If sniping and/or jump sniping becomes a major part of every battle or becomes an unbalanced game mechanic perhaps it could be countered by artillery or indirect LRM; fire, or even the Arrow IV?

[Dlardrageth]

Zerokei, on 02 January 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Wow, this thread has so much fail in it, it's kinda rediculous, never seen so many people cry in one place before. Unfair and fair tactics? It's freakin war, since when has anything in war been fair? Yeah, the clans have their code of conduct and so do the IS, clans had more advanced weapons, IS had ****, did the clans downgrade their stuff to fit in with their IS rivals? No. Did they strip down their mechs of their technology? No. See where I'm going with this?

To add to it, I don't know how many people are in the military here, but I am, I'm also in a line unit. We have a saying, "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying." Can you guess what that means for us?

It means you drop a nuke on him every time the enemy dares to stick out his head? Oh, wait, nah, we don't do that. Wonder why... Considering the tech base even in the IS (They happen to have working fusion technology, you know?) it is quite obvious they do limit themselves in the era for MWO (not talking about WoB nutcases in a later era). Does that exclude jumpsniping? Of course it doesn't. Does it make the single most used and OP tactic on IS battlefields in CBT? No, it doesn't do either.

It's not so much about tactics, it's about basic game balance. The mere ability of efficient use of poptarting is the game breaker here. Sure, allow for the option of jumpsniping, but... make it an exception to actually work out. If it were that easy and somewhat effortless like it was made in MW4, hey, the whole BT universe would rely on it, and you won't see any Mechs without jumpjets. Stunningly though, there are a lot of Mech designs without JJs, and they are probably employed in greater numbers than those with. Why would that be, hm?

Probably because MW4 was a very mediocre piece of game design, and the balancing with regards to jumpsniping capabilities was so way off, it was laughable. It's not the fault of the players who just adapted for the most part and became poptards, it's the game designer's fault who screwed up bigtime there.

Mind me, I'm not a proponent of Battletech being a reiteration of "Knights in shiny armor", the paladin isn't really a MechWarrior character class , But there has to remain a certain modicum of realism. To run with your analogy there, in your "line unit" in real life you don't call in a massive air strike for every single enemy sniper spotted, do you? Even if you possibly could in theory. Accordingly jumpsniping shouldn't be and become the "fits all situations" tactics employed in game. It should remain one of a whole lot, and highly situational employed. Unless you want MWO to become a mere circle-*expletive moderated* of poptards?

kargush, on 02 January 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

[...]
But seriously, if *one* single tactic is made possible in the game, people refuse to play it? I can't even wrap my head around that.

And not a single argument against is anything but "I don't like" when you remove all the "back in my day" and posturing about skill and "honour."

You coincidentally omit the fact where historically (MW4) jumpsniping/poptarting became totally OP and EzMode, leading to unbalancing the whole game. I did read the part KarnEvil wrote about including "shaking like a seizure victim", did you? That is how it should be. Making any weapons fire during jump a very chancy endeavour. Sadly, that hasn't been the case in the past, see MW4. It doesn't come down so much to "honour" or something for many of us, it comes down to basic game balance and versatility. It's not about "possible", kargush, it's about "stupidly OP and easy to pull off".

If proper balance is not provided, by making poptarting easy as was and thus make it become FOTM again, many of us won't play much if at all. And people can froth at the mouth about that or bite their carpet at home, that won't change anything. A basically unbalanced and sloppily designed (balancing-wise) game like MW4 or any reiteration of it won't be worth the personal playtime of many of us. And poptarting was a major balancing issue right there.

Why do you all think this thread is that long and the Mad Poptarting Disease is the most complained about feature of the past? Because it was a non-issue? Stop kidding yourselves, get a clue! If it was nothing to worry about, we wouldn't have that many posts in this thread, people would complain about something else like Mechs having big hineys etc.

TL;DR: No problem with jumpsniping as long as it is made really hard to pull off. Meaning a failure rate of 50+% for most pilots. No EzMode poptarting like in MW4, had enough of that stupidity which became game-breaking.

Edit: Right, KarnEvil wrote the part about the seizures, fixed that.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 02 January 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[Karn Evil]

Ah, the seizure victim bit was me, not kargush. That's the trouble with having faction allegiance icons instead of personalized images for avatars, I suppose.

[Pvt Dancer]

Terrible poll. He is talking about jump sniping yet instead says sniping, two totally different things.

No, you should not be able to fire your weapons while jump jets are engaged. When you jump over a mech and your first target is the cockpit, of course it breaks the game by making the head the easiest target to hit.

[UncleKulikov]

I'm fine with the capability to fire weapons while jumping, which is what jump sniping is. However, it should be hard to hit the target, and really hard to target specific points on the target.

If you pull it off, all the power too you. But it should be difficult.

[Kargush]

Dlardrageth, on 02 January 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

You coincidentally omit the fact where historically (MW4) jumpsniping/poptarting became totally OP and EzMode, leading to unbalancing the whole game. I did read the part KarnEvil wrote about including "shaking like a seizure victim", did you? That is how it should be. Making any weapons fire during jump a very chancy endeavour. Sadly, that hasn't been the case in the past, see MW4. It doesn't come down so much to "honour" or something for many of us, it comes down to basic game balance and versatility. It's not about "possible", kargush, it's about "stupidly OP and easy to pull off".

No, I did see it. The thing is that it seems everyone who is opposed to jump sniping are making the assumption that it'll be with a steady and nice platform with no shakes. A few are going "It's OK if they shake a lot." And some, like me, are all for it in any case. Heck, I can barely shoot straight myself in MWLL, but I never complain when someone manages to jump-snipe me (for the record, in MWLL, you shake *alot* when you jump).

Furthermore, I have never denied that it might have been an issue. Especially in *earlier games*. But this *isn't* earlier games, this is something else, so people have to learn to stop worrying and let the devs handle things.

Now, what do I do when I come across pop-tarting (as I did earlier today in MWLL)? I shoot back. "Hey, there's a pop-tart over on that hill there. Let's ruin his day." His next jump over met with 4 gauss rifles from me and a pair of PPCs from the MadCat next to me. Pop-tarting means skylining means becoming a target means becoming dead if you persist in doing it.

And finally, the devs have stated that urban combat is going to be big in this game. So sniping isn't going to be easy at all.

[Grand Paladin]

Sniping is a valid Tactic "ONLY" if in 1st person firing from Mech. Being able to "See" over terrain while not visible behind terrain and to jump to snipe is a cheap exploit and not fun to play against. JMO

[Kristov Kerensky]

Kargush, evidently you didn't play MW4 online, because poptarting wasn't a 'hey that guy over there is doing it, lets nail him', it was entire teams at a time doing it..on both sides of the field. Your MWLL story wouldn't be '1 guy' it would be 'the entire enemy team'..every drop. And everyone doing it would have NO issues at all getting you targeted while behind a hill and actually have no line of sight on you, or even show you on their radar, they'd just use 3rd Person, peek over the hill, SEE you and hit the jets..bam, all weapons hitting you at once from extreme range and dropping out of LoS before you could react..x8.

Previous games, you could jet up and THEN acquire your target, hope your ret was on the target due to the shaking and fire, with luck you'd hit the target, but usually you just scared the hell out them. Psyops, not constant free kill shots that MW4 gave.

And we DO need to voice our concerns to the devs about this, and any other issues we've had with ALL the previous MW titles, so they don't get REPEATED. Cause if we don't say something, we can't really complain about the bad things making into yet another MW title.