63 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

I don't mind NASCAR...with one exception:

HPG.

When the "take the top" is called, a few commit and then two stop on the ramp and hold up the push, or just as likely, most of the team just doesn't bother coming up, and then the inevitable mid-level right-ward drift commences. That drives me nuts. It turns into a lame bumbling version of NASCAR that is so easily preventable, but because so many refuse to press W and get up there it is almost inevitable.

[w4ldO]

Bud Crue, on 12 February 2019 - 05:08 AM, said:

When the "take the top" is called, a few commit and then two stop on the ramp and hold up the push, or just as likely, most of the team just doesn't bother coming up, and then the inevitable mid-level right-ward drift commences. That drives me nuts. It turns into a lame bumbling version of NASCAR that is so easily preventable, but because so many refuse to press W and get up there it is almost inevitable.

or when you actually take top with 8 mechs. then your team procedes to drop down on the other side so you are left with only a coule of mechs and get nascared by the opposing team

[Potatomasher69]

It's easier to herd kittens with the push to talk button. But go ahead and ask PGI to move mountains to fix a problem inherent in every first person shooter.

Everyone has a story. I got on my Boar's Head with 3ERLL and a couple pulse lasers. Map was Grim Plexus. I got in cover at 900m from where the enemy Nascar was gonna go and handed out free tatoos for a few minutes. In that time I had to kill a light mech hunting fatties and chased another one away into a medium mech of mine. At range I forced enemies to path to the top of Grim Plexus where they won the game anyways. I pulled a 700+ damage game with 1 kill and a few KMDD, not bad for a BH. The speed at which the game is resolved happens to fast for my slow success at 900m to matter.

Long range weapons are bad and speed is too good. If we all moved half as fast maybe we could start playing whack a mole warrior

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Palor, on 11 February 2019 - 12:10 PM, said:

I vote for random lance starting positions!

I vote that anyone who votes for Domination starts off in the yellow circle and incurs a penalty similar to the penalty for team damage for every 10 seconds they spend not in the yellow circle.

[Jman5]

People NASCAR for 4 basic reasons

1. They're mid-short range so poking from 700 meters back is off the table. They need to find some way to close the gap, but if they go clockwise they'll run straight into the entire enemy team's guns. So they go counterclockwise under cover to avoid that and find fights with more favorable odds.

2. It's easier to kill someone who is running to catch up with the group then it is to kill someone who is running ahead of the group. Not only are its guns facing the wrong way, but you're not nearly as time constrained. When you engage someone who is running ahead of the group you only have a few moments before all his buddies arrive. When you engage someone who is behind the group, the whole team either has to turn around, or lap around. Plus if he slows to engage, that just isolates him further.

3. Despite the whining, the tactic probably has the highest winrate in pugs compared to any other generic tactic. So the positive reinforcement of winning gets enough people to settle into it as the default tactic. The more people on a team that treats it as the default thing to do, the more your team is automatically in sync and the greater chance of winning.

4. It's less immediately reliant on your team watching your back and coordinating. Other tactics like firing lines rely on the bulk of your team holding the line with you against the bulk of the enemy team. If too many retreat or die you very quickly get demolished. With NASCAR if you run too far ahead and your team is holding back, all you have to do is disengage and run back the way you came to your squad. It's a low-risk move.


Changing lances around or randomizing it will not help because there are map/modes where lances are not an issue and yet NASCARing almost always happens. Polar Highlands is a great example. That map will start off as a poke-trade and then transition into a NASCAR. It almost always happens because players like myself are using short range guns and need to flank around just to do be able to do something.

The reason people go counterclockwise and not clockwise is mostly just a self-reinforcing fluke of how the meta evolved. If we all collectively woke up tomorrow from a fever-dream and decided that Clockwise is where it's at, we would get the same NASCAR tactic just in the other direction.

Edited by Jman5, 12 February 2019 - 07:13 AM.

[CFC Conky]

I'm finding that nascaring is less of an issue these days. Unlike my matches in T5-4, when I'm in Charlie lance we're usually getting an escort to the battle area. If I'm in Alpha or Bravo, unless the game mode requires rushing off to cap, I usually escort Charlie lance to the battle. After that, all bets are off, but at least the assault mechs have a better chance of surviving the first part of the match.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 12 February 2019 - 09:26 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Jman5, on 12 February 2019 - 07:08 AM, said:

People NASCAR for 4 basic reasons

1. They're mid-short range so poking from 700 meters back is off the table. They need to find some way to close the gap, but if they go clockwise they'll run straight into the entire enemy team's guns. So they go counterclockwise under cover to avoid that and find fights with more favorable odds.

2. It's easier to kill someone who is running to catch up with the group then it is to kill someone who is running ahead of the group. Not only are its guns facing the wrong way, but you're not nearly as time constrained. When you engage someone who is running ahead of the group you only have a few moments before all his buddies arrive. When you engage someone who is behind the group, the whole team either has to turn around, or lap around. Plus if he slows to engage, that just isolates him further.

3. Despite the whining, the tactic probably has the highest winrate in pugs compared to any other generic tactic. So the positive reinforcement of winning gets enough people to settle into it as the default tactic. The more people on a team that treats it as the default thing to do, the more your team is automatically in sync and the greater chance of winning.

4. It's less immediately reliant on your team watching your back and coordinating. Other tactics like firing lines rely on the bulk of your team holding the line with you against the bulk of the enemy team. If too many retreat or die you very quickly get demolished. With NASCAR if you run too far ahead and your team is holding back, all you have to do is disengage and run back the way you came to your squad. It's a low-risk move.


Changing lances around or randomizing it will not help because there are map/modes where lances are not an issue and yet NASCARing almost always happens. Polar Highlands is a great example. That map will start off as a poke-trade and then transition into a NASCAR. It almost always happens because players like myself are using short range guns and need to flank around just to do be able to do something.

The reason people go counterclockwise and not clockwise is mostly just a self-reinforcing fluke of how the meta evolved. If we all collectively woke up tomorrow from a fever-dream and decided that Clockwise is where it's at, we would get the same NASCAR tactic just in the other direction.

2. Especially if that mech running is a slow mech that can't really defend itself against light mechs. Moving the Assault Spawn to the right side and moving them close to the battlefront removes that from the equation. The moving closer to the battlefont is key because even if counter NASCAR becomes a thing, the Assaults should still be the ones first to the battle with the fast lights moving to the Assault not vice versa.

3. Yeah, it has exactly a 100% win rate because when both teams NASCAR one of them is going to win after all. However which side wins is mostly determined by the ratio of fast to slow mech a team randomly draws. The faster team generally wins. It has nothing to do with skill or tactics.

4. It may be low risk individually for the fast mechs, but leaving the murder ball behind is very high risk as far as winning the match and that is exactly what the fast mechs are doing, leaving the murder ball behind. Going back to point 3, the team that wins in NASCAR is the team that can maintain the most concentration of force while circling at high speeds. If you have a slower team, you get strung out and their faster team concentrates and gangs up on each straggler as they fall behind. Again since the MM assignment is random, you win if your team is faster, lose if it is slower. Again no skill or tactic involved, just blind random chance for the most part.

I think I have outlined it twice in this thread but I will do it again. What changing the lance spawn locations does is allow Assault mechs to get into battle first and makes it so that the faster mechs have to move toward them to concentrate up into the murder ball. It also removes early match stragglers assaults struggling to catch up to mechs running sometimes 3x faster than them, that end up being easy targets for fast light. It also removes the "Squirrel" that draws the fast lights into trying to catch the tail of tiger meaning there is less incentive to start the NASCAR right out of the gate. Will it stop NASCAR from happening? No, I think I mentioned that there will always be that tendency for people to want to flank around the right side. However, the NASCAR won't start until the murder ball is concentrated and it will be the Assault mechs leading the push acting as the hub while the light swing around the hub trying flank rather than this long line of mechs eating each others tail.

[InspectorG]

Grus, on 11 February 2019 - 12:07 PM, said:

People just need to learn how to pivot and cut off the tail of the NASCAR and watch it fall apart. OR! Dont get in a position to be nascard...

That requires looking at the MinMap.

Not happening.

[JediPanther]

quit the moba and nascar map design and fire the ones who still want it in their design.

[Angel of Annihilation]

CFC Conky, on 12 February 2019 - 09:24 AM, said:

I'm finding that nascaring is less of an issue these days. Unlike my matches in T5-4, when I'm in Charlie lance we're usually getting an escort to the battle area. If I'm in Alpha or Bravo, unless the game mode requires rushing off to cap, I usually escort Charlie lance to the battle. After that, all bets are off, but at least the assault mechs have a better chance of surviving the first part of the match.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Your right actually. I am starting to see more variation in the tactics because quite frankly, I think most people are sick of the NASCAR. There is at least a couple people upset with the NASCAR each match is is one of the reason I feel it is such an issue. That many people don't whine unless there is a legitimate problem. Also if that many people are whining about, you have to ask how many more are just quiting the game in frustration over it,

However, back to what you said, yes more people are trying variations but it is still doesn't happen often enough. Also most of the time these variations fall apart because way too many people buy into the whole NASCAR thing and unless the entire team is onboard with a new tactic, things fall apart quickly. From what I have seen whenever the team gels and they use tactics other than NASCAR to counter the NASCAR, that NASCARing team generally gets spanked and spanked hard but having the team come together and embrace the new tactic doesn't happen very often which results in a spectacular failure further reinforcing the fallacy that NASCAR is the best tactic. This is why I feel that the devs need to change things up with the Spawn locations and try to remove some of the factors that play into the NASCAR play style like making it easier for the Assaults to get into battle and locating them in such a fashion that it makes more sense for the lighter units to move to the Assaults rather than have the Assaults trying to catch up the the lights which are 3x faster than them.

All in all the worst than can happen is the game play changing a bit which lets face it, anything that adds variation to the game play at this point is a good thing. Best case scenario, the change forces new tactics that are stagnant and repetitive like we experience with the current NASCARing situation. I mean 90% of the time you know exactly what is going to happen each time you drop as it is now.

[Jman5]

Angel of Annihilation, on 12 February 2019 - 09:35 AM, said:

3. Yeah, it has exactly a 100% win rate because when both teams NASCAR one of them is going to win after all. However which side wins is mostly determined by the ratio of fast to slow mech a team randomly draws. The faster team generally wins. It has nothing to do with skill or tactics.

4. It may be low risk individually for the fast mechs, but leaving the murder ball behind is very high risk as far as winning the match and that is exactly what the fast mechs are doing, leaving the murder ball behind. Going back to point 3, the team that wins in NASCAR is the team that can maintain the most concentration of force while circling at high speeds. If you have a slower team, you get strung out and their faster team concentrates and gangs up on each straggler as they fall behind. Again since the MM assignment is random, you win if your team is faster, lose if it is slower. Again no skill or tactic involved, just blind random chance for the most part.

Solo queue matches weight classes 1:1 so broadly speaking there is parity in speed. While one assault can be faster than another assault, you're usually not going to have wild speed differences where one team has 8 guys going 130kph and another team has 8 guys going 50 kph.

I disagree that speed difference between the two teams determines NASCAR outcome. What usually determines outcome is which team has the better assaults and heavies. The more duds you have the more likely they wont watch their minimap, make bad decisions with their positioning, and self-isolate from the group. The better your assault/heavies, the more likely they will move efficiently, watch the minimap, and be able to keep up with the main bulk of the team.

Self-isolating yourself and getting run over by the enemy team is 90% a skill issue.

The reason why I so strongly believe it's a skill issue and not some inherent difference between the two team's assault speeds is because it takes so long for modest speed differences to actually make a difference. For simplicity sake, lets say you have 2 assaults. One goes 65 KPH and one goes 60 KPH. How long would it take for the 65 KPH mech to move 1 Kilometer away from the 60 KPH if they're both going full speed down the same track? The answer is an astounding 12 minutes. But lets stretch that out further and say one mech goes 65 KPH and the other only goes 50 KPH! Surely it would outpace it in no time at all right?! Actually it would take 4 minutes of running with no stopping to create that gap in distance.

Of course in reality there is tons of stopping and shooting, and making twisty non-direct pathing which means a slower mech moving efficiently usually doesn't have any trouble catching up and keeping up with the deathball. This is why when he doesn't, it's a skill issue and not a build issue.

Quote

I think I have outlined it twice in this thread but I will do it again. What changing the lance spawn locations does is allow Assault mechs to get into battle first and makes it so that the faster mechs have to move toward them to concentrate up into the murder ball. It also removes early match stragglers assaults struggling to catch up to mechs running sometimes 3x faster than them, that end up being easy targets for fast light. It also removes the "Squirrel" that draws the fast lights into trying to catch the tail of tiger meaning there is less incentive to start the NASCAR right out of the gate. Will it stop NASCAR from happening? No, I think I mentioned that there will always be that tendency for people to want to flank around the right side. However, the NASCAR won't start until the murder ball is concentrated and it will be the Assault mechs leading the push acting as the hub while the light swing around the hub trying flank rather than this long line of mechs eating each others tail.

So lets get specific, which maps would you change? Almost all map/modes I can think of has the lances all spawning together, the Assault lance is already the right-most spawn, or switching it around would actually make the Assault lance more vulnerable. Caustic Valley Conquest is the only one that really comes to mind where it can be an issue and Assaults are fine as long as they don't try to Rambo toward Epsilon.

However, frankly speaking, I'm of the opinion that making every map spawn location follow the exact same formula is boring. Also don't you think it make more sense for the scout mechs to be in front first doing you know scouting? Or are we all Steiners now?

It just sounds like you want to cut into the Light mechs ability to do anything constructive in the early game. If you're going to spawn them so far back that a 150kph light gets to the front as soon as a 50 KPH assault does, then you're essentially nerfing an important aspect of the light mech.

Edited by Jman5, 12 February 2019 - 11:24 AM.

[Verilligo]

Jman5, on 12 February 2019 - 11:14 AM, said:

Self-isolating yourself and getting run over by the enemy team is 90% a skill issue.

The reason why I so strongly believe it's a skill issue and not some inherent difference between the two team's assault speeds is because it takes so long for modest speed differences to actually make a difference. For simplicity sake, lets say you have 2 assaults. One goes 65 KPH and one goes 60 KPH. How long would it take for the 65 KPH mech to move 1 Kilometer away from the 60 KPH if they're both going full speed down the same track? The answer is an astounding 12 minutes. But lets stretch that out further and say one mech goes 65 KPH and the other only goes 50 KPH! Surely it would outpace it in no time at all right?! Actually it would take 4 minutes of running with no stopping to create that gap in distance.

Of course in reality there is tons of stopping and shooting, and making twisty non-direct pathing which means a slower mech moving efficiently usually doesn't have any trouble catching up and keeping up with the deathball. This is why when he doesn't, it's a skill issue and not a build issue.

Having been piloting a 43.7 kph quad LBX10, 3 ML Fafnir regularly for about two weeks now... I can vouch for the accuracy of this. While there are times where I am purely left behind, generally if I'm efficient with my movement I can either keep up with the team or arrive at the important early parts of the fight successfully and effectively. When I fail at this, it's typically because I've done something dumb and taken twenty seconds longer to get into position than I should have. My stats aren't outstanding, but respectable enough to believe the point raised here.

Edited by Verilligo, 12 February 2019 - 12:06 PM.

[Michael Carter]

Ships dropping lances is fine. THE Experience....adds more dynamic if drops got shuffled...Instead of the same dull starting configuration over and over.
However the map environment is essentially just a "box" with set limited pathways. Pity no endeavor but upon measure loss or gain to dynamics!~ To be adversely affected in battle We just pity the fool committing the rest of us to utter doom!
Hail! Let us find comedy within the tragic Abyss!!!!

[CUTE PUPPY LUV]

To the OP please don't be disheartened by some of the comments. I could tell they must be light mech players and it's not their vault to say things like that. Have you tried to spectate how light mech pilot moves? If you do and you feel dizzy, you should be amazed how they can pilot it such a way. This shows that light mech pilots are a whole different kind of guys than most of us.

Imagine how fast their thought process and actions are. We cannot expect them to form a static firing line and just move back and forth exchanging fire. Naturally they will do Nascar because of their talent.

I myself preferred assault and heavies because I'm not a fast thinking / action guy. Currently my solution is to build an above average fast assault (few are with 400 standard engine with almost 80kph) and follow the flow of the Nascar. Don't worry about enemies chasing at the back, ignore them, just keep close to the herd and face forward to the Nascar.

[DaZur]

Jman5, on 12 February 2019 - 11:14 AM, said:

Self-isolating yourself and getting run over by the enemy team is 90% a skill issue.

The reason why I so strongly believe it's a skill issue and not some inherent difference between the two team's assault speeds is because it takes so long for modest speed differences to actually make a difference. For simplicity sake, lets say you have 2 assaults. One goes 65 KPH and one goes 60 KPH. How long would it take for the 65 KPH mech to move 1 Kilometer away from the 60 KPH if they're both going full speed down the same track? The answer is an astounding 12 minutes. But lets stretch that out further and say one mech goes 65 KPH and the other only goes 50 KPH! Surely it would outpace it in no time at all right?! Actually it would take 4 minutes of running with no stopping to create that gap in distance.

Of course in reality there is tons of stopping and shooting, and making twisty non-direct pathing which means a slower mech moving efficiently usually doesn't have any trouble catching up and keeping up with the deathball. This is why when he doesn't, it's a skill issue and not a build issue.

Bull-pucky...

Your pretense is the slow assault/heavy is committed to doing nothing but make some sort of highly optimized bee-line to join the NASCAR at some ambiguous rally point. All those "tons of stopping and shooting, and making twisty non-direct pathing" things you propose the NASCAR is making that allows the fatties to catch up... Yeah, well us fatties are stopping, shooting and making non-directional paths trying not to get our arses shot off.

It's easy to make these idealistic presumptions/expectations but reality it is, more often than not fatties are left in the dust to get wolfpacked.

Yes, we do make stupid decisions like i dunno... stopping to try and defend ourselves. But reality is If your tail-end-charlies are set upon before blue makes contact, the red team NASCARed better than blue did and that means NASCAR should stop and support their team... Not continue to selfishly NASCAR forward.

[Verilligo]

DaZur, on 13 February 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

Bull-pucky...

Your pretense is the slow assault/heavy is committed to doing nothing but make some sort of highly optimized bee-line to join the NASCAR at some ambiguous rally point. All those "tons of stopping and shooting, and making twisty non-direct pathing" things you propose the NASCAR is making that allows the fatties to catch up... Yeah, well us fatties are stopping, shooting and making non-directional paths trying not to get our arses shot off.

It's easy to make these idealistic presumptions/expectations but reality it is, more often than not fatties are left in the dust to get wolfpacked.

Yes, we do make stupid decisions like i dunno... stopping to try and defend ourselves. But reality is If your tail-end-charlies are set upon before blue makes contact, the red team NASCARed better than blue did and that means NASCAR should stop and support their team... Not continue to selfishly NASCAR forward.

I can guarantee that your fat mech is getting to the fight faster than my fat mech, assuming you're not afk at the start of a match. There's a case to be made for getting swarmed on Mining or Grim before you reach the typical combat area, but apart from that if I can make it to the fight in time, I'm certain that you can make it to the fight in time. 90% of all lights, unless they've wolfpacked, aren't going to fully commit while you're still close enough to receive assistance. As soon as you stop to try and ward them off, though, you're boned because you rapidly start losing your ability to stay within assist range. That's the reason they're picking at you, they want you to stop because then you become isolated.

It doesn't matter if your team actually responds to a call for help or not, the light doesn't know whether they will or won't. As long as the risk is there, the light pilot almost assuredly is going to play as though they could get turned on at any moment. There is still the edge 10% cases where the light will dive in regardless... but that's just the risky trade-off you have to accept from driving an under 48 kph assault. If you're 48 kph or above, though, you will ALWAYS have the speed to get to the fight so long as you aren't distracted.

[InspectorG]

DaZur, on 13 February 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

Bull-pucky...

Your pretense is the slow assault/heavy is committed to doing nothing but make some sort of highly optimized bee-line to join the NASCAR at some ambiguous rally point. All those "tons of stopping and shooting, and making twisty non-direct pathing" things you propose the NASCAR is making that allows the fatties to catch up... Yeah, well us fatties are stopping, shooting and making non-directional paths trying not to get our arses shot off.

It's easy to make these idealistic presumptions/expectations but reality it is, more often than not fatties are left in the dust to get wolfpacked.

Yes, we do make stupid decisions like i dunno... stopping to try and defend ourselves. But reality is If your tail-end-charlies are set upon before blue makes contact, the red team NASCARed better than blue did and that means NASCAR should stop and support their team... Not continue to selfishly NASCAR forward.

Dunno mang,

My 53kph Cyclops/Annis/Dires rarely gets left behind. When i do, its because 8+ teammates go 130kph or i stayed behind(took a risk) to do some trollery. Its rare to get 8 fast mechs when the queue is 25%+ Assault/Heavy each.


52kph is the base speed i use for all my Cyclops, Annis and Dires and im usually at the FRONT or middle of the murderball/NASACR.

You have to keep pressing W as the team stops to shoot, you have to 'cut the ring' as well, like a boxer would.

Most players dont realize in MWO you play 2 games, the shooter game, and the MinMap puzzle.

[DaZur]

InspectorG, on 13 February 2019 - 08:19 AM, said:

Fair points... But let's be real, it's not the 90% the poster I responded to presented. I'd wager 50/50 to 40/60 at best.

I do make haste and try to route efficiently but even then, often times it's taking me well into the open where one is now sniper and LRM meat. Also, I don't fully expect lights who are at the front of the NASCAR to about face and support... They're largely committed to the rotation. I'm more so looking at the faster heavies and slower mediums that are in position to turn and support and they just keep marching along, sacrificing tail-end-charlies in the name of saving their hide to keep on rotating.

[Jman5]

DaZur, on 13 February 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

Bull-pucky...

Your pretense is the slow assault/heavy is committed to doing nothing but make some sort of highly optimized bee-line to join the NASCAR at some ambiguous rally point. All those "tons of stopping and shooting, and making twisty non-direct pathing" things you propose the NASCAR is making that allows the fatties to catch up... Yeah, well us fatties are stopping, shooting and making non-directional paths trying not to get our arses shot off.

It's easy to make these idealistic presumptions/expectations but reality it is, more often than not fatties are left in the dust to get wolfpacked.

Yes, we do make stupid decisions like i dunno... stopping to try and defend ourselves. But reality is If your tail-end-charlies are set upon before blue makes contact, the red team NASCARed better than blue did and that means NASCAR should stop and support their team... Not continue to selfishly NASCAR forward.

And yet if you scroll up you see a guy piloting a ridiculously slow 43 KPH fafnir who says he can manage to keep up most of the time. Now imagine that most assaults are piloting mechs with more reasonable speeds and the excuses get weaker.

Good players always come into these threads and tell you guys that keeping up is doable. If you're not going to believe them, then I doubt there is anything I can say to convince you otherwise.

Why don't you record a game (or find one on the internet) where you spawn in Charlie lance and get left behind and die in the solo queue through no fault of your own. All I ask is that you pilot something at least as fast as a direwolf. That way we can go over what happened and possibly what went wrong.

[DaZur]

Jman5, on 13 February 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

And yet if you scroll up you see a guy piloting a ridiculously slow 43 KPH fafnir who says he can manage to keep up most of the time. Now imagine that most assaults are piloting mechs with more reasonable speeds and the excuses get weaker.

Good players always come into these threads and tell you guys that keeping up is doable. If you're not going to believe them, then I doubt there is anything I can say to convince you otherwise.

I'm not saying it isn't "doable"... But there is no reason slow mech players have to sacrifice ALL trying to keep with the NASCAR and there should be no compromise by the rest of the team. It's selfish game-play at it's finest and proposing that 90% of fatty drivers lack the skill or knowledge to "keep up" is asinine.

[Redacted unnecessary snarky comment]

Edited by DaZur, 13 February 2019 - 09:09 AM.