63 replies to this topic

[Prototelis]

Assaults are still the best performing highest scoring class in the game.

So yeah, it probably is mostly used error.

Edited by Prototelis, 13 February 2019 - 09:08 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Verilligo, on 12 February 2019 - 12:05 PM, said:

Having been piloting a 43.7 kph quad LBX10, 3 ML Fafnir regularly for about two weeks now... I can vouch for the accuracy of this. While there are times where I am purely left behind, generally if I'm efficient with my movement I can either keep up with the team or arrive at the important early parts of the fight successfully and effectively. When I fail at this, it's typically because I've done something dumb and taken twenty seconds longer to get into position than I should have. My stats aren't outstanding, but respectable enough to believe the point raised here.

Here is the thing, you shouldn't have to be focusing so intently on your movement and that is my issue. My typical experience with a slow assault is that most of the match I am stuck focusing on movement, on trying to stay ahead of the rotation, that I can't focus on actually fighting. Then when I do finally get my sluggish mech into a great, advantageous position from which to punish the enemy, I have to give it up in order to not be left behind. I mean sure I can still do well in my assault mechs even having to do this but time after time I can't help but think of how much better my performance would be if i could focus on fighting and I wasn't having to spend so much time trying to keep up with mechs twice as fast as me.

That being the case, my goal is to try to eliminate situations were the Assault lance is having to chase the light lance and make it so the the lighter lances would move toward the Assault lance at the beginning of battle. Hell stack the spawn points up in a straight line if you have to but come up with some way to encourage a situation where the Assault mechs are the center of the Assault. I think moving the Assault to the right most spawn location AND moving them close to the main engagement areas on each map would go a long way to encouraging them.

Honestly I play all mechs Lights, Mediums, Heavies and Assaults and from those various perspectives, the only one that seems to have any issues is the Assaults. They are always the last to the fight and any hesitation out of the gate at the start generally places them in a vulnerable position that they can't recover from. Additionally when you have people complaining about getting left behind to die or other people telling players to "Get a faster mech" so as to not drag the team down, then you have a problem. The at least partial fix seems to me is to put those mechs into a starting position where these things don't happen.

[InspectorG]

Quote

I'm more so looking at the faster heavies and slower mediums that are in position to turn and support and they just keep marching along, sacrificing tail-end-charlies in the name of saving their hide to keep on rotating.

Like i said, those players dont play the MinMap Minigame, they are not paying attention and their play suffers for it. After you die, spectate and watch the lack of awareness. Unfortunately, that behavior is 'average' play. Jarl's list supposedly puts 'goods' around 80% or so.

Weight and speed of the mech doesnt matter if players get tunnel vision and dont see what their team is doing, or anticipating what Reds are doing based on locks/blips on the minmap, or even checking their 6 periodically.

PGI actually delivered the 'thinking man's shooter' and the skill basement is a bit high for the average person. There is no fix other than trying to call shots with 11 other Blues who may not even have voip on. Law of Averages kicks in and the average grunt will never be an officer, let alone 'good' at a particular skill.

Best you can do is up your game knowing this and compensate for having maybe 1-3 goods on your team and the rest are bots.

BUT...remember, REDS have the same situation: Pareto 20/80 same amount of 'goods' and bots.

I identify the goods and hang with them, everyone else is a turret or shield.

So goes the jungle of Solo.

[Jman5]

DaZur, on 13 February 2019 - 09:03 AM, said:

I'm not saying it isn't "doable"... But there is no reason slow mech players have to sacrifice ALL trying to keep with the NASCAR and there should be no compromise by the rest of the team. It's selfish game-play at it's finest and proposing that 90% of fatty drivers lack the skill or knowledge to "keep up" is asinine.

I never said or tried to imply that 90% of assault drivers lack skill or knowledge to play their mech. The vast majority of assaults in my game have no trouble at all. I said 90% of the time it comes down to piloting whether or not they keeps up with the group. There are rare scenarios where I am sympathetic to a slower assault mech, but they are infrequent situations where a lot of factors have to align.

I find it interesting that you use the word selfish, because frankly I have always viewed the anti-nascar group as being deeply selfish. The Assault class is the highest performing weight class in the game, but they want to take their 1 downside and neutralize it further. Or they want the entire team to accommodate one Assault by adjusting their strategies and plans. Often they want them to do it as a matter of course without even bringing it up until its too late. Instead of doing their best to overcome this one downside to their mech, they want the entire team to accommodate their preferences. That to me is very selfish.

If there was nothing they could do, I would be all for fixing the situation, but that isn't the case. Use your head, try to move efficiently, watch your minimap, position yourself expecting your team to move around the map. If you are deadset on sitting in one spot all game, then communicate this clearly at the start of the game, ask for support and don't scream bloody murder 5 seconds before you're overrun. It is not selfish or a sacrifice for the team to expect one of their players to do their due diligence.

Edited by Jman5, 13 February 2019 - 11:05 AM.

[InspectorG]

Angel of Annihilation, on 13 February 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

Here is the thing, you shouldn't have to be focusing so intently on your movement and that is my issue...

Honestly I play all mechs Lights, Mediums, Heavies and Assaults and from those various perspectives, the only one that seems to have any issues is the Assaults...

Sorry to break it to you, but any and all combat is about movement, which gives position which can create opportunities for advantage.

You have issues with Assaults because you dont understand positioning and TIMING. Other weights have the ability to re-position from a bad spot. Most (slow)Assault cannot.

Coordinated Group play can allow for more stagnant positioning to set up firing lines, etc, because bad play by the opposition gets harshly punished.
Bad play in Solo can sometimes rarely be punished.

When i drop Solo in a fatmech, im basically always pressing W and i peek at the minmap every 3-5 seconds. You have to because Solo is a big uncoordinated mess with the only real structures being get to/circle the middle or roasting marshmallows at Camp Cowardice.

The skill is in knowing how/when to 'release the Kraken', similar to back in the day when Lights had to know where/when to poke because they could peek right into a double gauss to the ST.


If you want to turret in an Assault, yo may need Group or FW. Sitting still in Solo means you are hoping the Reds are worse than the Blues.

[DaZur]

Jman5, on 13 February 2019 - 10:59 AM, said:

I find it interesting that you use the word selfish, because frankly I have always viewed the anti-nascar group as being deeply selfish. The Assault class is the highest performing weight class in the game, but they want to take their 1 downside and neutralize it further. Or they want the entire team to accommodate one Assault by adjusting their strategies and plans. Often they want them to do it as a matter of course without even bringing it up until its too late. Instead of doing their best to overcome this one downside to their mech, they want the entire team to accommodate their preferences. That to me is very selfish.

It's selfish to not want be considered "dispensable" assets? I don't want anyone one play class or style to be neutralized or diminished. I would like those to understand the players they write off as disposable want to have an enjoyable play experience too...

Like I said earlier... There's a compromise available but it requires folks to think beyond themselves.

[Jman5]

DaZur, on 13 February 2019 - 11:05 AM, said:

It's selfish to not want be considered "dispensable" assets? I don't want anyone one play class or style to be neutralized or diminished. I would like those to understand the players they write off as disposable want to have an enjoyable play experience too...

Like I said earlier... There's a compromise available but it requires folks to think beyond themselves.

It's selfish for one player who wasn't paying attention or making good decisions to demand that the entire team turn around and save them like they're some damsel in distress. It's selfish for a player to tell himself that there is nothing he can do to avoid getting himself into sticky situations instead of working toward not being a burden. It's selfish for the highest performing weight class to demand further buffs.

I'll just say this again. If the entire weight class was always falling behind and being NASCAR'd I would be in favor of taking a look a look at things like spawn locations. However the vast majority of assaults in my game do not have any problem with the speed at which the rest of the team moves. Zero problem. In fact often times its the assaults leading the charge. It's almost always individual players and when you watch what they did before, the reason tends to be pilot error.

I don't know why it's so hard to admit that if you're falling behind regularly there is likely some problem with your play. I screw up all the time. I have had tons of fundamental mistakes in my playstyle that I had to eventually correct over time. It's not the teams fault for not covering for my mistakes, it's not PGI's fault, it's my fault.

I don't see Assault players as dispensable any more than I see a medium mech as dispensable. However one player does not take precedence over the rest of the team. If one player is demanding to be rescued while the rest of the team is in a pitched battle, I'm going to put the team's interest over one guy who self-isolated.

Edited by Jman5, 13 February 2019 - 11:36 AM.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

@Angel of Annihilation, could I request that you test out #3 and report your findings? Something like, do X number of matches the normal way and record W/L ratio to get a baseline. Then run a series of matches where you take company command in the ready screen and completely swap alpha and Charlie lance. Record and report the results for comparison.

[DaZur]

Jman5, on 13 February 2019 - 11:36 AM, said:

It's selfish for one player who wasn't paying attention or making good decisions to demand that the entire team turn around and save them like they're some damsel in distress. It's selfish for a player to tell himself that there is nothing he can do to avoid getting himself into sticky situations instead of working toward not being a burden. It's selfish for the highest performing weight class to demand further buffs.

I'll just say this again. If the entire weight class was always falling behind and being NASCAR'd I would be in favor of taking a look a look at things like spawn locations. However the vast majority of assaults in my game do not have any problem with the speed at which the rest of the team moves. Zero problem. In fact often times its the assaults leading the charge. It's almost always individual players and when you watch what they did before, the reason tends to be pilot error.

I don't know why it's so hard to admit that if you're falling behind regularly there is likely some problem with your play. I screw up all the time. I have had tons of fundamental mistakes in my playstyle that I had to eventually correct over time. It's not the teams fault for not covering for my mistakes, it's not PGI's fault, it's my fault.

I don't see Assault players as dispensable any more than I see a medium mech as dispensable. However one player does not take precedence over the rest of the team. If one player is demanding to be rescued while the rest of the team is in a pitched battle, I'm going to put the team's interest over one guy who self-isolated.

Now your just pulling stuff out your arse...

Nowhere did I say some culpability doesn't lie with the players who pilot slow mechs and nowhere did I infer I don't make mistake and fall behind by my own admission.

What I do take issue with is players like you who pay zero recognition to this being a team game and infer the survival of the tail-end-charlies or any one mech should fall wholly upon their shoulders.

Again... "team game".

No teammate should be considered "dispensable"... Even potatoes contribute to the potential shared armor tonnage and aggregate damage potential.

If your personal survival outweighs the success of the team... Yeah, that's selfish. Color me overly idealistic I guess.

[Jman5]

DaZur, on 13 February 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

Now your just pulling stuff out your arse...

Nowhere did I say some culpability doesn't lie with the players who pilot slow mechs and nowhere did I infer I don't make mistake and fall behind by my own admission.

What I do take issue with is players like you who pay zero recognition to this being a team game and infer the survival of the tail-end-charlies or any one mech should fall wholly upon their shoulders.

Again... "team game".

No teammate should be considered "dispensable"... Even potatoes contribute to the potential shared armor tonnage and aggregate damage potential.

If your personal survival outweighs the success of the team... Yeah, that's selfish. Color me overly idealistic I guess.

And what I take issue with are people using the phrase "team game" as a shield to mean play how its convenient for me. If my entire team suddenly stopped to rescue one guy off by himself, or moved in a different direction than I was going, I would adapt to what the team wants. If my team is NASCARing then I adapt to that. If I think we should be doing something differently, then I communicate it ahead of time instead of expecting the team to do what I want as a matter of course.

If Charlie lance was always having issues, I would be with you. However the vast majority of players in my charlie lances have zero problem which doesn't make this a teamwork problem it makes it an individual player's problem.

Every action has an opportunity cost. The entire team stopping to save one guy who self-isolated means they can't do anything else but try to save one guy who screwed up. Sometimes that is the correct move. A lot of times it's not.

The fact of the matter is teams cannot win if they drop everything to rescue one guy every single time it happens. Afterall what about the AFK guy? Should the whole team move to him to prevent anyone from killing him until he comes back? Certainly he can at least share armor standing there. That is why part of being a good teammate means doing your best to not burden your team in a way that decreases your team's chances. And that goes into not allowing yourself to be NASCAR'd which it seems we all agree now that it's usually the player's fault.

What I also take issue with is the idea that Assaults need further buffs by adjusting Charlie spawn locations when they are the highest performing weight class in the game and lights are the lowest performing ones. Also why are there no specifics? Which map/mode do you guys want to change and how? Vast majority of maps either have the spawn locations as OP wants, they're spawned together, or it's a complete non-issue for map specific reasons.

Or do you not agree with OP? What do you want to change Dazur and how?

Edited by Jman5, 13 February 2019 - 12:35 PM.

[DaZur]

Jman5, on 13 February 2019 - 12:32 PM, said:

Or do you not agree with OP? What do you want to change Dazur and how?

In principle... No I don't fully agree with the OP. Changing spawn locations will have only marginal effect in changing what is a "play mechanic/human issue".

I got no solution save for trying to reinforce the fact MWO is supposed to be a team game (whether you think this is is cop-out or not). The most impactful way to reinforce this would be for game design to provide meaningful roles for all classes that contribute to success... Right now it's kill or be killed which reinforces zero need for teamwork above light scouting and calling targets to focus down.

[Verilligo]

DaZur, on 13 February 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:

I got no solution save for trying to reinforce the fact MWO is supposed to be a team game (whether you think this is is cop-out or not). The most impactful way to reinforce this would be for game design to provide meaningful roles for all classes that contribute to success... Right now it's kill or be killed which reinforces zero need for teamwork above light scouting and calling targets to focus down.

This is a team game, absolutely. But it is absolutely up to every INDIVIDUAL person to look out for their own survival. The cohesive effort of the team is to defeat the enemy and if you can line up your attacks with other individuals or the team as a whole, your ability to succeed goes up dramatically for certain. But that doesn't mean you can expect that someone else is going to rescue you from a tight spot.

In all frankness, they can't, and it's the number one behavior that everyone needs to eliminate. You cannot SAVE anyone when they are already in trouble. The person that's already in trouble should not expect to BE saved. If anything, they should shift their playstyle such that they can do as much vital damage as possible and direct the team to make the most of their sacrifice by raining down on the enemies committing to the attack if they are able. As frustrating as it is, a team cannot react quickly and effectively enough to save an isolated person AND get back into position for effectively attacking the enemy. The game isn't built to allow for it.

With regards to role warfare... mechs already have roles, based on tonnage, build, and general performance profile. What we don't have are ENFORCED roles or specifically-rewarded ones. You are not rewarded for playing a Spider as a skirmisher or a scout, the game doesn't care how you play it. This is fine, too, as the maps are not sufficiently large or the gameplay sufficiently complex to require anything more complicated than different variations of "kill the reds." It's just a simple no-respawn game where the average length is intended to be 5-8 min for QP... and honestly, it doesn't need to be much more than that if it can accomplish that goal well enough.

[DaZur]

Verilligo, on 13 February 2019 - 01:31 PM, said:

Community established the pretense that the loss of 3 teammates early on in a match was the magic number to effectively place that team far enough in deficit that recovery was very..very difficult. In a nutshell, the composite armor and aggregate firepower the advantaged team had over the other was enough to tip scales. Understanding that pretext...

Absolutely, survival is each players responsibility... No argument there. That said, understanding the above pretext does it make any sense to accept any loss, particularly that of a slow assault secondary to its armor and firepower contribution, as a acceptable loss?

I have no romantic expectations of the team dropping everything to exclusively go save some schmuck arse... But at the same time, Understanding the above pretext, does it not make sense to at the very least consider some cognizance of those mechs, what their contribution potential is and afford some support until they are in a position to contribute?

As far as role warfare... We're effectively on the same page.

[CUTE PUPPY LUV]

I'd like to share my secret as assault in Nascar
1. Use bigger engine like 350 or even 400 to get speed and agility.
2. Bring Missiles weapon like LRM / ATM. This way you have chance to deal damage even though you are not exactly at the front (because you are slower).
3. Put more armor at the back If necessary 50-50. This way even though you are caught up a bit and got shot at the back, you would survive longer and hopefully can mingle again among your teammates.
Enjoy!

[Prototelis]

^ Ur trolling right?

[Water Bear]

Of the 3 reasons in the OP, I agree with only the first. I believe you could write some pretty simple rules and get bots to immitate this human behavior. Rule 1 is something like: run away when lots of the enemy is facing / moving toward you. Rule 2 is go towards the enemy's rear facing. Those two rules, plus a "hole" in the map that forces you to circle around instead of using some other route, probably results in Nascar.

Here's a math joke that literally no one on this forum will get: You need a non-trivial fundamental group for Nascar. #topologyjokes

Edited by Water Bear, 13 February 2019 - 07:35 PM.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

CUTE PUPPY LUV, on 13 February 2019 - 05:36 PM, said:

1. Use bigger engine like 350 or even 400 to get speed and agility.

I'm sure all those Annihilator/Fafnir/Dire Wolf pilots out there will get riiiight on that.

[General Solo]

I nascar because


FTW

Notice the 100 Ton assualt mech at the front.

Continue whining nascar haters

NASCAR is unnerfable

Time to learn to nascar

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 14 February 2019 - 05:31 AM.

[Potatomasher69]

I can't wait to hear the complaining when everyone's torso twist range is reduced to 30 degrees to prevent all this Nascar that is soo beneath all of you.

[General Solo]

Please remind PGI that turning left is done with the feet and not the torso twisties