19 replies to this topic

[LDTorroc]

Alright, so i have been putting this off for a while but i waking up in the middle of the night thinking about this got me scratching my head, So i went and did alittle bit of digging to look some information up. Before i get too far in to this let me explain, Last night i had quite a few really good matches more or less winning every single one of my matches, But there were more then a few were i came up ageist light mechs using nothing but Mg's. And as we all know these little mules hurt if you dont do something about them, seeing as these little mechs can eat armor faster then most mechs i have seen. So i wondered why that was So i logged on not to long ago and i started to crunch some numbers.

Now for the sake of argument, I am using the values that are listed as if they are being fired at their optimal range
1.small laser
3.25 damage
2.25 cooldown
0.75 duration
= 20 shots/60s = 65damage/60s
heat=20.20
1.mg
1/s damage
60damage/60s

Now right off, i see the small laser has a higher damage count by about five points, in contrast to the mg, But the thing is the small laser has a heat build of 1.1 per laser, in contrast to that of a MG. So i played around with the numbers a little more to get feel for it.

6.small laser
6x65=360damage/60s
heat=121.2
9.small lasers
9x65=585damage/60s
heat=180
12.small lasers
12x65=780damage/60s
heat=242.4
6.machinegun
6x60=360damage/60s
9.machineguns
9x60=540damage/60s
12.machineguns
12x60=720damage/60s

Again, the MG is lagging behind the small lasers damage output but only 60 points, but as we see the small laser heat will climb with the number of lasers added, This can be mitigated with skills,quarks, and equipment. But what this means tho is if the pilot isn't careful they run the risk of over heating quickly, But not the mg, the mg is able to keep firing non-stop until it no longer has ammo to spend This being the weakness of a ballistic weapon its easy to understand.

Now you ask me why i went through the trouble to explain all this to you yes? Well PGI scaled most of the damage and rules from the rpg/table top game in to a shooter, So with that being said The mg is able to out shoot laser based mechs who have to control their heat or shot down. meaning so long as the mech as enough ammo it is able to out preform laser based weapons in a blink of an eye, This is no includeing the heavy MG, with has a damage of 1.5.

I have to say this becouse my king crab with six hmg's is able to dish out 540 damage in 60 seconds in close range with no heat climb, while a piranha useing a total of 12 is able to deal 720. This dose seem alittle off balance, when you can compair this to an RAC 2/5

1.RAC/2
6.538damage/s
6.538d x60s=392.28damage
heat 2/sx60s=120
1.RAC/5
10.913/s
10.913d x60s=654.74damage
heat4/sx60s=240

As we can see with the basic math,RAC's are insane when it comes to damage But this is not taking in to respect, Overheating and jamming two things MG's do not have. When we take both of these in to play, MGs can still out preform RAC's at close range becouse of heat scaling and jam chance.

I point all this out because i am starting to feel the Mg's need to be revisited and be re-tweaked to fit the game better

Edited by LDTorroc, 22 February 2019 - 04:41 AM.

[Bud Crue]

So you’re saying MG’s need a buff?

Agreed. My Arrow could use the help, not to mention my Locust 3V.

[Angel of Annihilation]

MGs do 1 damage per second, heat free. Additionally against internal structure, that damage can double or triple due to the fact it gets bonus damage to internal structure on crits. Additionally MGs can easily strip weapons and equipment from a damaged enemy mech in seconds due to the way crits work. Lasers get none of these bonuses.

Now up the number of MGs to 8-12 which drastically increases the amount of crits you achieve against an enemy mech and the damage starts to run away with itself the second the armor has been breached.

Now I would be ok with a flat damage increase to MGs to make them a bit better against armor, maybe even up to a 50% boost to damage, but the problem with MGs is that happens after the armor is breached. That needs to go away. MGs should do flat damage against structure, not get a massive dps increase and the chance to crit out a weapon, even with 12 MGs, shouldn't be any higher than the chance when getting hit by a Massive AC/20 autocannon shell. Hell if anything the mass and explosive force of a 200-300mm Hight Explosive Armor Pericing cannon shell going off inside the structure of the mech should have catastrophic damage compared to a dinky 12.7mm mg with no explosive filler rattling around inside the casing, not the other way around.

So in Summary. up the raw damage output of MGs, remove the critical damage multiplier to Internal structure and reduce crits to about 10% or less of the crit chance they have now and we are golden because as it stands no the MG is unreasonable OP.

[InspectorG]

How many Non-Lights are equipping MGs since they are so powerful?

[Curccu]

InspectorG, on 22 February 2019 - 06:41 AM, said:

How many Non-Lights are equipping MGs since they are so powerful?

OPs king crab?

he also chooses to ignore facetime, ammo and spread... If I could have 12 IS SL light mech I would take it over MG piranha always.

[Jman5]

If you're going to look at machine guns, you have to include the ammo that needs to be attached. For simplicity, I would say +0.5 tons of ammo per machine gun. So in practice an IS machine gun is effectively a 1 ton weapon. This makes the Small Pulse Laser a much better comparison weapon.

But what about heatsink tonnage for lasers?

While true, you have to remember that 10 heatsinks are a sunk cost into every mech regardless of weapons. You want to factor in heat dissipation rate of the 10 heatsinks you will always have. So sure 6 small lasers do 121 heat, but 10 Double heatsinks will dissipate 132 heat in 1 minute. So they're effectively heat neutral like a machine gun.

I did some tests in game to try to get a general idea of what sort of DPS a machine gun actually has when you factor in crits. vs small pulse laser. I tested vs a regular ole awesome in the training ground. I shot it from the back where they have much less armor which I think is being plenty generous to the Machine Guns. the SPL mech also only has has minimal DPS skills (5.25% cd, 3.75% beam duration reduction).

IS SPL vs Awesome: 1.623 DPS

IS Mgun vs Awesome: 1.492 DPS

Clan Mgun vs Awesome: 1.366 DPS

And before people mention it, I'm certain that crit chance works just fine in test ground. If it didn't, the IS and Clan Mgun numbers would be identical and would both be 1.0. The IS mgun has higher crit chance and crit damage which is why it has better dps than the clan version. Clan is more tonnage efficient. The SPL numbers would also be a little lower if crits didn't work.

Edit: I also tested it in private lobby vs a warhawk and got nearly identical numbers.

Edited by Jman5, 22 February 2019 - 08:33 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

InspectorG, on 22 February 2019 - 06:41 AM, said:

How many Non-Lights are equipping MGs since they are so powerful?

Y'all missed Reckless doing 700-1k consistently in his 7HMG+2LPL+2MPL+LRM15 Direwolf last night. It was wrong on so many levels.

[thievingmagpi]

Y E O N N E, on 22 February 2019 - 12:35 PM, said:

Y'all missed Reckless doing 700-1k consistently in his 7HMG+2LPL+2MPL+LRM15 Direwolf last night. It was wrong on so many levels.

lol, saw he was late night pugging, sad I missed this XD

[Y E O N N E]

thievingmagpi, on 22 February 2019 - 01:09 PM, said:

lol, saw he was late night pugging, sad I missed this XD

It's ok, though, it means you also missed me potating in the Nightstar. :x

Edited by Y E O N N E, 22 February 2019 - 01:13 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

I've already seen that

[Y E O N N E]

thievingmagpi, on 22 February 2019 - 01:15 PM, said:

I've already seen that

:PepeHands:

[Angel of Annihilation]

Curccu, on 22 February 2019 - 06:53 AM, said:

OPs king crab?

he also chooses to ignore facetime, ammo and spread... If I could have 12 IS SL light mech I would take it over MG piranha always.

Honestly the only time MGs are OP are once the internal structure is exposed and that is what I want changed. The magic 2-3 times damage to structure on critical hits combined with the ridiculously high hit chance to crit in the first place and the effect those crits on weapons and equipment in those exposed sections. Also I honestly wouldn't mind a flat DPS upgrade to MGs if they felt that removing or at least drasticly reducing the effectiveness of the critical hit mechanics of the MG make them too weak.

As far as spread, MG do have spread but they are also hitscan and don't require any lead so as long as you can keep your crosshairs on he enemy mech, your hitting them.

Seriously though, you shouldn't be losing 60-80+ internal structure and/or losing every weapon you have mounted on your mech in mear seconds from MG fire. This is seriously BS and not fun at all and that is the problem with MGs. Also lets be honest, how many people cried and wailed about Clan Alpha Strike damage capability because at the end of the day, the MG problem amounts to the same thing, too much damage applied in a short period of time.

[Khobai]

The problem isnt MGs critting a lot but rather the fact critical hits do bonus damage to internal structure.

MGs doing lots of critical hits isnt the problem. MGs should be really good at destroying equipment in exposed locations. MGs just shouldnt do bonus damage to internal structure whenever they crit. thats what needs to be changed.

Crits doing bonus damage to internal structure directly contradicts the reason crits exist. Because crits are supposed to destroy equipment, not structure, and having crits destroy structure faster makes destroying equipment irrelevant since all the equipment gets destroyed anyway once the structure gets destroyed.

Edited by Khobai, 22 February 2019 - 01:45 PM.

[Grus]

@title let's not...

[InspectorG]

Y E O N N E, on 22 February 2019 - 12:35 PM, said:

Y'all missed Reckless doing 700-1k consistently in his 7HMG+2LPL+2MPL+LRM15 Direwolf last night. It was wrong on so many levels.

Ah, man. I would love to see that work, in Solo no less.

I wonder why the LRM15, if not for trolling?

[Angel of Annihilation]

Khobai, on 22 February 2019 - 01:39 PM, said:

The problem isnt MGs critting a lot but rather the fact critical hits do bonus damage to internal structure.

MGs doing lots of critical hits isnt the problem. MGs should be really good at destroying equipment in exposed locations. MGs just shouldnt do bonus damage to internal structure whenever they crit. thats what needs to be changed.

Crits doing bonus damage to internal structure directly contradicts the reason crits exist. Because crits are supposed to destroy equipment, not structure, and having crits destroy structure faster makes destroying equipment irrelevant since all the equipment gets destroyed anyway once the structure gets destroyed.

Honestly I still think it is both. There is nothing more frustrating than to be attacked by a light mech using MG and with just a couple of bursts of MG, they have completely removed your entire ability to fight back.....well other than dying in those same couple bursts.

Another thing people don't tend to consider with MG's is that they are a constant fire system. Unlike lasers, auto cannons or missiles, their is no cool down period. When your taken under fire by other weapons systems, if the initial shot doesn't kill you immediately your going to have 2-5 seconds of relative safety, to torso twist, get into cover or hell fire back to prehaps kill the guy that just shot you. With MGs they just keep firing and firing until the enemy runs out of ammo or your dead, NO HEAT, NO COOLDOWN. Combine that with the critical damage to weapons and equipment and the bonus damage crits due to structure and it should be obvious what the problem is.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Khobai, on 22 February 2019 - 01:39 PM, said:

The problem isnt MGs critting a lot but rather the fact critical hits do bonus damage to internal structure.

MGs doing lots of critical hits isnt the problem. MGs should be really good at destroying equipment in exposed locations. MGs just shouldnt do bonus damage to internal structure whenever they crit. thats what needs to be changed.

Crits doing bonus damage to internal structure directly contradicts the reason crits exist. Because crits are supposed to destroy equipment, not structure, and having crits destroy structure faster makes destroying equipment irrelevant since all the equipment gets destroyed anyway once the structure gets destroyed.

I would much rather take a bit more structure damage than immediately lose weapons.

[Prototelis]

Mgs are fine.

Those crit reduction nodes soak up a lot of crits. Most of the time I don't manage to take any equipment from a rear st with the PIR.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Prototelis, on 23 February 2019 - 12:46 PM, said:

Mgs are fine.

Those crit reduction nodes soak up a lot of crits. Most of the time I don't manage to take any equipment from a rear st with the PIR.

Not everyone runs those nodes, nor should you have to run those nodes in order to "Balance" MGs, they should be balanced without requiring the nodes.

[Y E O N N E]

Everything in the game is balanced in the context of Skill Tree Nodes.