64 replies to this topic

[Vellron2005]

Antares102, on 28 February 2019 - 11:59 AM, said:

Tweet Russ.. nothing else will work.
PGI has never changed anythign through forum posts.

Actually, I've seen my direct input in the forums change the game - twice..

And many of my ideas in the suggestion part of the forums seem to have also made it into MW5...

It's rare, but it happens..

[Dee Eight]

Darakor Stormwind, on 28 February 2019 - 10:45 PM, said:

I know that quote is supposed to take care of trolls, but it essentially shuts down any kind of discussion on any topic that one person does not have a video for.

Haven't you learned yet that its standard for below average ability players to come up with below average quality reasoning in topic posts on here.

[RickySpanish]

How about paying attention to your heat and not red-lining in a brawl? Just a thought... You could also chow down on some cool shots if you simply can't l2p hard enough

[R Valentine]

RickySpanish, on 01 March 2019 - 09:29 AM, said:

How about paying attention to your heat and not red-lining in a brawl? Just a thought... You could also chow down on some cool shots if you simply can't l2p hard enough

Is that really all you have? "L2P"? It's not about being unable to deal with it. It's a change that the majority of the community hates and it hasn't done the job of making IS engines better. In fact, it has hurt IS mechs more than clan, because any mech using an LFE gets the heat spike while also having inherently less heat sinks than a comparable clan mech. So the IS mech ends up with even less heat dissipation and now has to deal with a massive heat spike, while at least the clan mech could pack heat sinks in like there was no tomorrow. Mission not accomplished. Clans are still superior. What even was the point?

[Grus]

Antares102, on 28 February 2019 - 11:59 AM, said:

Tweet Russ.. nothing else will work.
PGI has never changed anythign through forum posts.

this is one of the reasons I got banned from his Twitter feed I think...

[RickySpanish]

Kiran Yagami, on 01 March 2019 - 10:25 AM, said:

Is that really all you have? "L2P"? It's not about being unable to deal with it. It's a change that the majority of the community hates and it hasn't done the job of making IS engines better. In fact, it has hurt IS mechs more than clan, because any mech using an LFE gets the heat spike while also having inherently less heat sinks than a comparable clan mech. So the IS mech ends up with even less heat dissipation and now has to deal with a massive heat spike, while at least the clan mech could pack heat sinks in like there was no tomorrow. Mission not accomplished. Clans are still superior. What even was the point?

Hahah, perhaps you should read the design notes for the change again. The heat change wasn't implemented to address Clan vs IS balance. Sooo yeah, better sign up to the reading as well as the piloting classes

[Variant1]

gladly be on board with the removal of the nerf only if we make std engines viable first
having an engine that reduces so much weight should have some penalties to it

[Koniving]

Tarl Cabot, on 28 February 2019 - 05:14 PM, said:

Video or it didnt happen

It can be anywhere form 75% to 80%, dependent on the number of HS in the engine, both eHS and HS put in the slots.

Its no longer limited to the engine heatsinks and slots. (Well for the engine it is, but lemme continue)

All heatsinks are accounted for now, and that's the big thing that people aren't realizing. In 2012 heatsinks all counted and then in in 2013

Spoiler

(with the changing point being soon after the override system was implemented as mechs were dying too quickly on overrides after having lost a side torso or two full of heatsinks),

to 2018 up until this recent "nerf", the maximum threshold and cooling power that could be lost was capped to just a percentage of the base 10 heatsinks. Though the engine also took from the base 10 and the engine slots. So if you lost 20 heatsinks, well you'd only lose like 5% of your cooling/threshold power for having lost the heatsinks, and up to about 10 or 15% for the XL / LFE being damaged.

After the change, they re-enabled the full challupa. Every heatsink lost counts with NO CAP (though the engine still only does the base ten and the slots.... Every One of the Heatsinks you had in that side torso and arm that just got blown off also went boom and with it went the FULL cooling and threshold power of those in addition to the percentage of the base ten and the engine slot heatsinks).

That's where you're gettin' screwed.
This is also why if you try it with a Warhawk, losing the ST with the heatsinks locked into it being lost is FAR more devastating than losing the ST without them. Try it out!

(Read the patch notes of the "nerf" carefully.)

Edited by Koniving, 01 March 2019 - 12:42 PM.

[Lances107]

It was a bad change anyway you slice it. To the guy saying L2P. The number one method of clan pilots is heavy damage, this requires running "the red line". This is to counter the heavy armor and structure quirks of IS mechs. So what your saying is clan pilots should just what lay down and die? In order to keep there heat at 50 percent or less? You throw insults around but really do not add substance. It would be the equivalent of punishing IS for heavy armor, say they lose 25 percent of there armor, and then boom they explode. Its that bad of a idea and mechanic in the game.

Koniving Interesting

[Sjorpha]

Khobai, on 28 February 2019 - 12:53 PM, said:

the pre-nerf CXL and LFE should be the baseline that all other engines need to compete with. Not the other way around.

They can't both be the baseline since cXL is a lot stronger than LFE.

Either cXL is the baseline and then LFE needs buffs or LFE is the baseline and then cXL needs nerf.

[Koniving]

Lances107, on 01 March 2019 - 12:43 PM, said:

Koniving Interesting

Yeah, in closed and open beta when the heatsink indicator would show broken heatsinks, which overheating up until open beta ended actually did critical component damage to everything (and later the actuator and engine stuff was just turned off so basically heatsinks, weapons and ammo). You didn't straight up die from overheating but if you had ammo and hit 104% heat, you basically exploded.

In 2013, the "Override" system was changed so that rather than a quicker reboot, it prevented shutdown in the first place. With this the overheat mechanic stopped attacking your crits and instead attacked your structure (since they had a reliable way of showing that damage as opposed to monitors that worked most times but sometimes didn't, and only showed heatsinks and ammo).

If you lost a side torso or something full of heatsinks (heatsink boating was a huge thing at the time), you'd get huge cuts to your max heat and cooling power slowed to a crawl making things seem to take forever to cool off. Soon after PGI tweaked something so that you'd only lose a percentage of cooling power for heatsinks lost.

It's been that way for a long, long time.

And welp, note that the patch notes specifies that they changed the heat system to take from all the heatsinks...

"Destroyed Heat Sinks and Clan XL / IS Light Engine side torso destruction penalties now removes total heat threshold from the top of the available heat pool rather then from the bottom. "
Top being all the heatsinks + all bonuses, where bottom was just the engine + added heatsinks (so I stand corrected, yeah losing the engine also takes from the total pool).

"This will mean that instead of limiting the amount of heat your bar can be reduced to, redlining to the edge of the shutdown threshold will result in a shutdown or an overridden state if an enemy destroys Heat Sinks or damages an engine out from under you. "

And this is the part I mainly focused on. First off it takes from the top of the pool from all the threshold and cooling power including bonuses (where in the past it only took from your base ten and even then it had a percentage cap of how much it could take away), but it also is including heatsinks in this taking from the top of the pool. So no more 5% or so cap to how much you can lose. Imagine if overheating still attacked your crit slots instead of your structure; you'd be a ticking time bomb.



There's also this quote.

"Heat System Design Notes: We have decided to make some back end changes to the way the heat threshold system is calculated in order to address a number of heat related display bugs that resulted in irregular heat bar behavior when components where destroyed out from under a player while they still had accumulated heat. While this change is mostly targeted to remove these heat display bugs, this will carry with it some shifts to the way that the heat system works. Especially when it comes to 'Mechs that are redlining and have their components blown out from under them. We felt this change adds a slight bit more to the risk / reward factor for those that redline their 'Mechs close to the shutdown threshold, and is most apparent when a Clan XL or Inner Sphere Light side torso destruction penalty kicks in."

So yeah... it's pretty much meant to have you incline more to using IS XL and STD engines if you can't manage your heat.
My ballistic builds (using mostly Clan XL as I don't have many LFEs) are completely unaffected by the nerf. And since I was never into laser vomit, my energy builds that do have a number of lasers never alpha enough heat so close together as to have to worry about it. I've been shut down once in combat by this nerf. In practice and testing quite a bit more of course (in extreme cases of heatsink loss, the low point I hit was 67% for a shutdown but it was a literal heatsink boat with maxed skill tree bonuses for heatsinks under operations.)

[RickySpanish]

Lances107, on 01 March 2019 - 12:43 PM, said:

It was a bad change anyway you slice it. To the guy saying L2P. The number one method of clan pilots is heavy damage, this requires running "the red line". This is to counter the heavy armor and structure quirks of IS mechs. So what your saying is clan pilots should just what lay down and die? In order to keep there heat at 50 percent or less? You throw insults around but really do not add substance. It would be the equivalent of punishing IS for heavy armor, say they lose 25 percent of there armor, and then boom they explode. Its that bad of a idea and mechanic in the game.

Koniving Interesting

Don't tell me your side torso exploding just suddenly happened. "Like omgawd! It just totes vanished and now I'm stunlocked!" Torsos don't just evapourate unless you are in a Piranha. You can comfortably red line while your torsos have at least yellow structure in a heavy. But yeah, when you start taking major component damage you really DO need to start paying attention! I'm sorry if it is somehow taxing to check your paper doll every couple of seconds to stay on top of things. If that IS a real problem, just override shutdown all day and eat a cool shot. Options people; you have them!

[Angel of Annihilation]

Kiran Yagami, on 28 February 2019 - 06:46 PM, said:

They could have skipped all of that by not gimping the ISXL to begin with. Everything they've done since ISXL even came out has been a bandaid. And then clans came out and it was GG no-re. They should have changed the ISXL years ago. What they're doing now just makes all engines bad.

Honestly I agree. I know it wasn't lore friendly but I proposed a long time ago that they needed to remove the IS XL torso death mechanic from the game. To simulate the difference they could have given the IS XLs more of a penalty than the Clan XLs but improving the IS XLs would have been a hell of a lot better change then basically turning Clan XLs into IS XLs. I really don't understand why PGI feels that everything has to be made worse in order to balance things out. Why they hell can't things just be made better to balance things out instead. Don't they realize that player's reactive positively to buffs? I mean hell, if the damn TTK was to short, why not just buff the damn armor values on all mechs, why did we have to be saddled with medium lasers having 3.5-4 second cooldowns? It just boggles the damn mind that everything has to get worse.

Edited by Angel of Annihilation, 01 March 2019 - 05:41 PM.

[FupDup]

For the IS XL the idea I favor the most is still the one where installing any IS XL on your robot would innately grant your side torsos enough bonus structure and armor to have equal HP to the center torso. Thus, side coring would no longer be a shortcut to kill you compared to just a normal CT coring.

This would keep the side torso death flavor while still greatly increasing the survivability of a gundam equipped with an IS XL. For example, the 90-ton Sunder would gain +20 structure and +40 armor per side torso. That's nothing to sneeze at.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

The main problem isn't the way the changes affect your heat threshold, but the fact that the heat contained in any sinks you lose gets dumped instantly back into the now-smaller pool. If the sinks are disconnected from the system, either because they were destroyed or because they were in a component that got destroyed, how is it that the heat already inside them can magically and instantly transfer into rest of the 'Mech? That doesn't make any sense. The capacity loss makes sense. The dissipation loss makes sense. The instant magic heat re-distribution does not.

Science lesson time. Heat capacity is how much heat a system can absorb before it reaches a temperature at which it begins to fail, and that temperature only goes up as you add heat to the system- hence the heat bar, which is a thermometer. If the heat load is spread evenly across the 'Mech, and you destroy part of it- even if that part stays attached- it will not just instantly cool off, nor will the rest of the 'Mech see a temperature increase. Even though the remaining systems' heat capacity is reduced, their heat capacity is not exceeded- because they contain the same amount of heat as they did before the other components were destroyed, and the destroyed components also still contain the same amount of heat as before. The destroyed bits don't have active cooling anymore- because the heat sinks within are also destroyed- so they also cannot pump heat they already contain back into the rest of the system. They can only dissipate heat passively, which would not result in a heat spike (at worst, a debuff to dissipation beyond that caused just by the loss of the heat sinks).

Heat just does not work the way PGI has implemented these changes. The current mechanics simulate the temperature (heat load) in a destroyed component instantly dropping to absolute bloody zero, with all of the heat load formerly contained within instantly transferring to the rest of the machine. That. Does. Not. Make. Sense. It is acceptable to break with reality when doing so makes the game more fun (weapons with absurdly short reach so that combat can play out within visual range, lasers with beams you can see even in vacuum, etc). The current torso loss mechanics break reality to make the game less fun, which is considerably more difficult to justify.

Pay a 40k cbill survival tax, instant flaming death, or stunlock while an enemy is still shooting at you. Holding 20%-30% (depending on just how many sinks you'll be losing) of your heat bar untouched is an option, but not a good one- not shooting the enemy when you still have the ability to do so does not generate wins. Smart players are going to pay the survival tax and keep a coolshot in reserve, then just keep riding the heat curve- and I can't help but wonder about that. It's a bad mechanic to implement if you want to convince more players to use ISXL or STD, because it does nothing to remove the disadvantages of those engines... nor does it do anything useful for 'Mechs that can't (or shouldn't) choose a different engine to begin with, some of which were already subpar. It is, however, a wonderfully effective mechanic to implement if one of the intended effects was to increase consumable usage. I'd love to see the numbers on that one.

The nonsensical heat spike is the issue, not the loss of capacity or dissipation. Get rid of the spike by removing a percentage of total heat equal to the destroyed sinks, and the problem goes away. They can even nerf dissipation more- that's fine. Whatever. Just get rid of the "gotcha!" spike.

[Tarl Cabot]

Koniving, on 01 March 2019 - 12:38 PM, said:

Its no longer limited to the engine heatsinks and slots. (Well for the engine it is, but lemme continue)

snip

the maximum threshold and cooling power that could be lost was capped to just a percentage of the base 10 heatsinks. Though the engine also took from the base 10 and the engine slots. So if you lost 20 heatsinks, well you'd only lose like 5% of your cooling/threshold power for having lost the heatsinks, and up to about 10 or 15% for the XL / LFE being damaged.

Snip

It was not restricted to the base 10 EHS since Engine HS were not being damaged/destroyed during the IS STD/isXL era. Clans were added June 2014 but did not have the initial heat dissipation/heat bar penalty added until Oct 2014 Though my examples were using a timberwolf with no additional external HS other than those equipped in the engine, like PGI previous example.

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__3795963

Quote

• 
  
• New heat penalties when a 'Mech equipped with a Clan XL engine loses a side torso.
  
• The 'Mech will lose 20% of the heat sinks in the engine.
  
• This percentage is calculated as the total of the heat sinks integral to the engine as well as any equipped in its heat sink slots.
  
• The lost heat sinks are removed from those integral to the engine
  

The impact is that the external HS no longer provides as great as a Heat Bar/Scale capacity to counter the loss of a LFE/cXL ST. Imagine if the external HS continued to provide a greater capacity with the changed top remove from the top Heat Bar/Scale. When a LFE/cXL is lost, besides the engine hs removal (using total percentage of engine/slot hs) those large capacity numbers would have added to the drop with thee lost with that section, whereas now those external HS drops the capacity by percentages, Heat Capacity reduced to 0.5 (from 1.5)

Your top vs bottom comment though, unless PGI clarified it, to me meant previously the capacity was being removed from the bottom of the Heat Bar/Scale, so if someone was sitting at 95% when a ST was loss a player would only really notice the loss dissipation at first. If said pilot cooled down and fired the remaining amount of weapons it would consume a greater percent of the Heat Bar/Scale than it would have before the loss.

Quote

"Destroyed Heat Sinks and Clan XL / IS Light Engine side torso destruction penalties now removes total heat threshold from the top of the available heat pool rather then from the bottom. "

Top being all the heatsinks + all bonuses, where bottom was just the engine + added heatsinks (so I stand corrected, yeah losing the engine also takes from the total pool). (that is not how I am reading the above patch notes)...

[Khobai]

Stonefalcon, on 28 February 2019 - 06:20 PM, said:

This change was beneficial to the game. There is a direct punishment now for taking an LFE/CXL instead of using STD or XL.

If you can't adapt to a positive change perhaps go back to Hello Kitty?

The change was not beneficial to the game. Because all it did was make XL better than LFE. Because if you die anyway after shutting down from losing a side torso with LFE, you might as well just use XL instead.

It just swung things in the opposite direction. XL is now better than LFE. and STD still sucks.

engines still arnt balanced. nothing was improved whatsoever.

an improvement would be all engines being EQUAL. when that happens we can say its an improvement.

Edited by Khobai, 01 March 2019 - 06:39 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

the game is nigh on unplayable with the amount of illiterate droolers that play it so hey you know what, bring it on. who cares.

[Tarl Cabot]

Khobai, on 01 March 2019 - 06:35 PM, said:

The change was not beneficial to the game. Because all it did was make XL better than LFE. Because if you die anyway after shutting down from losing a side torso with LFE, you might as well just use XL instead.

It just swung things in the opposite direction. XL is now better than LFE. and STD still sucks.

engines still arnt balanced. nothing was improved whatsoever.

an improvement would be all engines being EQUAL. when that happens we can say its an improvement.

iie, not equal but equivalent....Everything survives a ST loss but with different penalty percentages...STD is a STD.... /penicillin shot incoming!!

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 01 March 2019 - 06:54 PM.

[Khobai]

equal and equivalent both mean the same exact thing. they both mean having the same value, amount, function, or meaning.

with regard to engines, we want them to be of equal value, but not exactly identical in how they reach that value.

for example you can say 1+1+1+1 = 6-2. they are equal but not identical. thats how engines should be in MWO.

XL, LFE, and STD should all be equally balanced. CXL and STD should also be equally balanced. Which would also balance CXL vs XL and CXL vs LFE via commutative property since clans and IS both share STD engines in common.

Edited by Khobai, 01 March 2019 - 07:19 PM.