88 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

Kiran Yagami, on 04 March 2019 - 06:50 AM, said:

I put almost no stock in KDR. Any monkey can hide in the back and snipe cherry red CTs. KMDD and match survival rate are the most meaningful stats, but no leaderboard bothers to track KMDD(if it's even possible to do so).

Well Jarls and Average Match Score inadveradly does.

If you are just last-hitting mechs for the kills and not getting the KMDD / Solo kill etc your average match score is much lower for your KDR than someone getting the KMDD / Solo without the kill.

But then there is barely anyone in the game that does that, so it doesn't mean much. The only people that claim the "oh but the people in the back taking the last hits" are usually the people dying early on in matches.

Again it is about understanding the numbers. Many do not.

[Bowelhacker]

Where would we be without the Jarl and his list?

[Sagara Sousuke 011011001]

Humble Dexter, on 02 March 2019 - 11:20 PM, said:

As far as Quick Play goes, there's a huge bump (a cliff) when you move from Tier 5/Tier 4 up to Tier 3.

Which in this case means your opponents are getting better because you are... progressing.

I didn't find much of a difference at Tier 3. I hit Tier 2 about two weeks ago and man was that a rude awakening. I'm getting absolutely trashed now.

I found this game fun initially but if I can't adjust to Tier 2 within a few weeks I may stop playing.



- and actually I'd love to go through my two primary load outs and my current playing methodology if someone with experience might be able to guide down the right path.

Edited by Sagara Sousuke 011011001, 04 March 2019 - 02:44 PM.

[R Valentine]

justcallme A S H, on 04 March 2019 - 12:49 PM, said:

Well Jarls and Average Match Score inadveradly does.

If you are just last-hitting mechs for the kills and not getting the KMDD / Solo kill etc your average match score is much lower for your KDR than someone getting the KMDD / Solo without the kill.

But then there is barely anyone in the game that does that, so it doesn't mean much. The only people that claim the "oh but the people in the back taking the last hits" are usually the people dying early on in matches.

Again it is about understanding the numbers. Many do not.

That's not really what I was getting at. My point was KDR doesn't contain the information people think it does. The top list in Jarl's has KDRs all over the place with a high degree of variance. You can be a mediocre player with a high KDR and you can be a great player with just an ok KDR. KMDD is what makes the kill possible to begin with, which is the real barrier to breaking down enemies. Finishing a mech off once someone else has done the hard work is the easy part.

[The6thMessenger]

Kiran Yagami, on 04 March 2019 - 06:50 AM, said:

I put almost no stock in KDR. Any monkey can hide in the back and snipe cherry red CTs. KMDD and match survival rate are the most meaningful stats, but no leaderboard bothers to track KMDD(if it's even possible to do so).

KMDD and survival-rate? You mean I could just lurm way behind second line while pad so much damage?

Kiran Yagami, on 04 March 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

KMDD is what makes the kill possible to begin with, which is the real barrier to breaking down enemies. Finishing a mech off once someone else has done the hard work is the easy part.

"Hard work", coming from background lrmers, padding so much damage.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the support, I really do, but don't mistake indiscriminate-raining to "hard-work".

I'd rather we just use WLR, it's not that specific but it's telling of your impact over a long course of a career.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 04 March 2019 - 03:23 PM.

[LordNothing]

Racerxintegra2k, on 02 March 2019 - 08:16 PM, said:

Great advice ... terribly boring playstyle and really not fun, unless winning is everything.

im not entirely convinced throwing team under the bus is a winning tactic. might get your k/d up but your w/l suffers for it.

aggression works, its super effective tactic and is what enables fp units to farm seals to their hearts content. but as soon as you get a quarter of your team doing their own thing it kind of looses its edge.

Edited by LordNothing, 04 March 2019 - 04:07 PM.

[Phoenix 72]

Well, I would not mind it if they implemented a change that also tracks KMDD. One of the Mechs I play most is my Triple RAC2 Bushwacker X1. I regularly put a metric **** ton of damage on the enemy Mech, jam, and then have someone else secure the kill. I do not mind (too much), because finishing kills is what gives better chances of winning games...

I am so happy that the events now go for kills OR KMDD, because that makes it so much less stressful for me. Otherwise I would have really taken a bite out of my mouse yesterday, when I got 6 KMDD and 0 kills, after doing over 1200 damage with the Wacker...

[Burning2nd]

lol here we go again with how awesome PGI's math is.... OH wait lets throw another none official stats keeper in the mix that doesnt even capture the full picture,

Literally stats in this game mean nothing, The math that they use to calculate it is broken.. thats what most of the big problem was years ago when they made the change

there are so many problems with the way they capture the stats, about the only thing that actually is accrete is time played


LOOk... really simple there are people running around with "DEATHSTAR" tags who got them for a 12 man disconnect....

just saying

The6thMessenger, on 04 March 2019 - 03:18 PM, said:

KMDD and survival-rate? You mean I could just lurm way behind second line while pad so much damage?

!!!! HOW dare you call these "champs" out.... there isnt anyone here who does lots of damage and always ends up in the rear of the team with no damage and no kills

Edited by Burning2nd, 05 March 2019 - 01:02 AM.

[Phoenix 72]

When I read these comments, that kinda makes me wonder... Since apparently, a lot of weapons "do not count" when doing damage, because they are padding damage numbers, can anybody give me a list of weapons that DO count?

I would really want to know whether my damage counts or not...

[cougurt]

Burning2nd, on 05 March 2019 - 01:02 AM, said:

lol here we go again with how awesome PGI's math is.... OH wait lets throw another none official stats keeper in the mix that doesnt even capture the full picture,

Literally stats in this game mean nothing, The math that they use to calculate it is broken.. thats what most of the big problem was years ago when they made the change

what are you even talking about? the QP leaderboard does nothing more than track your match statistics in the most straightforward way possible. there aren't any weird calculations involved, you just aren't as good as you think you are.

Edited by cougurt, 05 March 2019 - 01:58 AM.

[Besh]

Darakor Stormwind, on 05 March 2019 - 01:52 AM, said:

When I read these comments, that kinda makes me wonder... Since apparently, a lot of weapons "do not count" when doing damage, because they are padding damage numbers, can anybody give me a list of weapons that DO count?

I would really want to know whether my damage counts or not...

In QP, I think a lot of Matches in the end get won because LRMs did a lot of softening up ( if not outright killing ) . That whole debate starts when people overly brag about their amount of dmg.done (moreso if they use their teammates as meatshields to rack up high dmgnumbers, but Team still looses ), or player's contribution to a match is solely evaluated by dmg. done .

Example : Hop into a 3xRAC2 MAD, play a dozen of Games . See how hard it is to do 500+ dmg, 300+ Matchscore . Then, hop into a FLE-17 with any kindof of combination of SML/SPL, or a LCT-E, and see how hard it is in that Mech to do 500+dmg., 300+ Matchscore .

Edited by Besh, 05 March 2019 - 02:52 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Besh, on 05 March 2019 - 02:49 AM, said:

Example : Hop into a 3xRAC2 MAD, play a dozen of Games . See how hard it is to do 500+ dmg, 300+ Matchscore . Then, hop into a FLE-17 with any kindof of combination of SML/SPL, or a LCT-E, and see how hard it is in that Mech to do 500+dmg., 300+ Matchscore .

Easier in a Flea actually. But takes more time since DPS is lower and you can't always engage right away.

[Besh]

PhoenixFire55, on 05 March 2019 - 03:09 AM, said:

Easier in a Flea actually. But takes more time since DPS is lower and you can't always engage right away.

Not easier in the Flea . Easier for you maybe, probably because you have the motorskills, map knowledge and awareness, reflexes etc. it takes to do well in a Flea . But looked at the pure amount of "work" (inputs required), timing/coordination it takes for these inputs to be effective and a few other things, the Flea is much harder than the Marauder .

Edited by Besh, 05 March 2019 - 03:30 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Besh, on 05 March 2019 - 03:27 AM, said:

Not easier in the Flea . Easier for you maybe, probably because you have the motorskills, map knowledge and awareness, reflexes etc. it takes to do well in a Flea . But looked at the pure amount of "work" (inputs required), timing/coordination it takes for these inputs to be effective and a few other things, the Flea is much harder than the Marauder .

The question here should be whether it is easier to do 500+ dmg and 300+ matchscore consistently in either Marauder or a Flea. And the answer would be, it is equaly easy, provided you have same motorskills, map knowledge and awareness. It might be easier for a player without said skill to happenchance do 500/300 in a Marauder once in a while, but on average he will still peform according to his poor standarts, since it is also easier to be caught out of position and focused early on in a slower mech etc.

In turn, that means that your average matchscore, that reflects your consistency, along with your W/L ratio are a very decent way to determine skill.

[Horseman]

Bud Crue, on 03 March 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

Don't worry, even at Tier 1, you can play the goofiest crappiest mechs and still not drop in tier...like lose consistently for weeks and not drop more than a pixel. In fact you can play the worst mechs with the dumbest builds and still be at a 1 kdr or even better. There are just as many of us bads up here as their are down in the underhive, so it really makes no difference what you play or bring (unless you are doing CW or have aspirations of playing competitively) so keep having fun with it.

QFT. I haven't moved from maxed bar at tier 1 despite some amazingly idiotic failure streaks (typically either when I'm screwing around with unskilled mechs or experimenting with builds trying to fit something on the chassis).

The6thMessenger, on 04 March 2019 - 03:18 PM, said:

KMDD and survival-rate? You mean I could just lurm way behind second line while pad so much damage?

Survival rate is irrelevant. As long as you've at least done your fair share before you went down, it will contribute to the team's success and come through in your WLR.
Obviously, though, if you do carry your own weight in combat then surviving longer to kick more *** tends to be a good idea.

Burning2nd, on 05 March 2019 - 01:02 AM, said:

OH wait lets throw another none official stats keeper in the mix that doesnt even capture the full picture,

1. There's no "another", only Jarl's List
2. Jarl's List aggregates data published by PGI, which is as official as it gets. Are you telling us you didn't know that?

Darakor Stormwind, on 05 March 2019 - 01:52 AM, said:

When I read these comments, that kinda makes me wonder... Since apparently, a lot of weapons "do not count" when doing damage, because they are padding damage numbers, can anybody give me a list of weapons that DO count?

Any and all weapons count. What has to be considered:

• if your WLR is below 1, your presence is statistically detrimental to your team's odds of success.
  
• If your WLR is above 1, your presence is statistically advantageous to your team's odds of success.
  
• If your KDR is below 1, your team has to pick up your slack.
  
• If your KDR is above 1, you're picking up someone else's slack.
  
• If you're managing 250+ average score with WLR < 1, you're doing plenty of damage, but it's not really good damage as in you're not applying your DPS in a way that's advantageous to your team.
  
• If you're managing KDR > 1 with WLR < 1 , you're either prioritizing targets wrong or using a degenerate KDR-farming "strategy" - either way, you're getting kills but those are not really good kills as in you're not applying your DPS in a way that's advantageous to your team.

The reason LRMs and ATMs get a lot of flak is that they motivate their users to embrace a degenerate playstyle:

• Static gameplay: the lurmer has no motivation to change position and thus falls to tunnel vision, failing to move with his team (and thus dying to enemy lights when caught out unprotected)
  
• Risk-avoidance: the lurmer doesn't need to see the enemy, his teammates will do that for him... as each of them gets in the line of fire, and the lurmer is out of sight, purely dependent on their teammates ability to provide target locks.
  
• Using team as a meat shield: as the lurmer is motivated to stay in the back (or in a static position entirely), his teammates are left to tank more damage than they would have to if the lurmer took position in the front line
  
• Lack of effective fire on target: since the lurmer doesn't see the targets, he commonly fails to realize his salvos were just landscaping for past minute or two.
  
• Lack of effective damage on target: since lurmers often rely on parasitic locks, they don't stay on targets long enough to convert their DPS into kills. A sandblasted enemy Marauder with zero armor can still have all of its' weapons and happily kill a third of your team before it's taken out.
  
• False sense of competence: the damage accounts for most of the match score formula, locking some players in the mindset that nothing but damage matters (we all know that's false - what really matters is crushing your enemy, seeing them driven before you and hearing the lamentations of their mothers) and giving them the impression they don't need to improve in any way.

Bottom line, the problem isn't necessarily in the weapon systems, it's in the fact that it tends to push its' users to employ it in the dumbest, least effective way possible.

Sagara Sousuke 011011001, on 04 March 2019 - 02:28 PM, said:

I didn't find much of a difference at Tier 3. I hit Tier 2 about two weeks ago and man was that a rude awakening. I'm getting absolutely trashed now.
I found this game fun initially but if I can't adjust to Tier 2 within a few weeks I may stop playing.
- and actually I'd love to go through my two primary load outs and my current playing methodology if someone with experience might be able to guide down the right path.

Post a thread in the New Player Help forum, let's have a look.

Edited by Horseman, 05 March 2019 - 07:15 AM.

[Curccu]

Antares102, on 03 March 2019 - 08:05 AM, said:

So if my rules are "terribly boring playstyle and really not fun, unless winning is everything" then you prefer to:

That is brutally black and white view, there might be this grey area also where people play smartly some decent mechs that are bit more challenging to do well not just that super boring vomit HBR while using friendlies as meat shield or using some utility mixed build and playing it like a moron.

Bowelhacker, on 04 March 2019 - 02:05 PM, said:

Where would we be without the Jarl and his list?

Arguing with tier5 potatoes with 0,3KDR what tactics/weapons/mechs are good, now we can link Jarl's and say STFU noob.

[Besh]

PhoenixFire55, on 05 March 2019 - 03:49 AM, said:

The question here should be whether it is easier to do 500+ dmg and 300+ matchscore consistently in either Marauder or a Flea. And the answer would be, it is equaly easy, provided you have same motorskills, map knowledge and awareness. It might be easier for a player without said skill to happenchance do 500/300 in a Marauder once in a while, but on average he will still peform according to his poor standarts, since it is also easier to be caught out of position and focused early on in a slower mech etc.

In turn, that means that your average matchscore, that reflects your consistency, along with your W/L ratio are a very decent way to determine skill.

Nope, "the question here" should not be what you think it should be to make your point valid . There was no question in my post you replied to . You do not get to dictate the conversation . I was very clearly stating that, looked at the workload ( inputs/timing ) required, it is harder (' i.e. more work ) to get the mentioned stats in a Flea than in a Marauder . Shifting the Goalposts does not change that imho .

[PhoenixFire55]

Besh, on 05 March 2019 - 04:40 AM, said:

Nope, "the question here" should not be what you think it should be to make your point valid . There was no question in my post you replied to . You do not get to dictate the conversation . I was very clearly stating that, looked at the workload ( inputs/timing ) required, it is harder (' i.e. more work ) to get the mentioned stats in a Flea than in a Marauder . Shifting the Goalposts does not change that imho .

Heh ... kinda funny you know, since my "shifting the goalposts" brings us back closer to the OP topic, not the other way around.

You want to talk about "harder"? Sure, lets talk about "harder". I do not consider it "harder" or "more work", in fact I consider it to be easier to be able to do 500/300 in a Flea compared to a Marauder. There you go, since we already have one example of it not being "harder" as you seem to think, then your point is invalid to begin with.

Apparently you wanted to dictate the conversation. Well ... tough luck bro.

[Moldur]

Boredom with single mechs despite doing better in them isn't a crazy reason. I mean you could technically play through all of MWO with one or a few meta builds on the most solid chassis... but there is barely anyone that does that. Even with people who "main" a single chassis long after it's been mastered, they still have a garage full of dozens of mechs they use at least sometimes.

[R Valentine]

The6thMessenger, on 04 March 2019 - 03:18 PM, said:

KMDD and survival-rate? You mean I could just lurm way behind second line while pad so much damage?



"Hard work", coming from background lrmers, padding so much damage.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the support, I really do, but don't mistake indiscriminate-raining to "hard-work".

I'd rather we just use WLR, it's not that specific but it's telling of your impact over a long course of a career.

Huh? LRMs may do OK at padding damage stats, but the amount of damage wasted is massive. Even on a target out in the open with LOS, not every missile hits. It takes half the time or less to score the same amount of damage with direct fire weapons and you can actually choose what you hit. And LRMers have abysmally low survival rates because once someone does get to them, they die pretty much instantly. Unlike a direct fire mech which can actually make the stand as the last mech alive on a team. In order for the LRMer to survive, he has to have other surviving teammates as well to stand between him and the enemy, which means someone else was doing the heavy lifting to begin with. Your argument is idiotic. LRMers rarely have a high KMDD or survival rate.