25 replies to this topic

[Grus]

I was dropping for the lolz and chills over the past few days in QP and I noticed something kinda subtle. When I'm trying to aim with my clan mechs, the torso tends to "float" a bit when I'm trying to get on target. Contrast to the IS mechs I ran, they seem to be much more... snappy. Anyone else noticed or has had a similar experience?

(IS: marauder, sylph, catapult (F).)
(Clan: mad2c, mk2, ebj,)

[K O Z A K]

it's called IS mechs have better torso agility?

[Grus]

Hazeclaw, on 02 March 2019 - 09:46 AM, said:

it's called IS mechs have better torso agility?

so I'm not crazy. Didn't realize and or think that it applied to "getting on target" as well.

[Antares102]

Just compare the twist rates of mechs here:
https://mech.nav-alpha.com/

IS have on average better "torso turn rates".

Edited by Antares102, 02 March 2019 - 09:59 AM.

[K O Z A K]

what does getting on target mean in this context? How quickly your torso/arms move? Having faster torso rotation speed will obviously put you on target faster. On average IS mechs have faster torso rotation speed, hence you get on target faster

[Grus]

Hard to explain. clan mechs, when I'm aiming seem to keep moving, just a bit, after I stop moving my mouse. IS mechs dont. There is a mouse option that does this and I have it turned off.

How else can I explain..

When I'm lining up my shots, IS mechs feel very German.

And the clans feel French..

[Koniving]

I think it might be better if we could see it. But I'll try to look for this behavior.

[Grus]

I really need some time to get my video recording stuff d/led and running so I can just put a video up...

[Angel of Annihilation]

Antares102, on 02 March 2019 - 09:59 AM, said:

Just compare the twist rates of mechs here:
https://mech.nav-alpha.com/

IS have on average better "torso turn rates".

IS have on average, everything better than Clan mechs. They are more agile, more responsive to the throttle and movement changes, have shorter turning radius and retain higher speed in the turns. Also not only do their torso's have faster twist speed but generally speaking they all have greater range of motion in terms of pitch and yaw. Then there is the fact that most IS mechs are more durable thanks to all the freebie armor and structure quirks and tend to be significantly cooler running. Then there is the fact that their weapons all fire faster than Clan weapons since they all have lower cooldowns, shorter beam duration and the like. Lastly with the new Heat Spike on ST loss with an XL, well even Clan XLs barely have an advantage anymore. In fact the only advantage the average Clan mech has any more is Alpha Strike potential but even that has been widdled away. It is kind of crazy that the highly advanced Clan mechs are dramatically inferior to 300-500 year old IS designs in most performance categories.

I guess at this point the thank god that the Clans have maybe a half dozen to a dozen mech designs that are lucky enough to be able to take advantage of the smaller size and weight of Clan weapons to make them superior performers. On the flip side it is a damn shame that all the rest of the Clan mechs get balanced around these few top performers and become absolute dogshit.

Edited by Angel of Annihilation, 02 March 2019 - 11:53 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Angel of Annihilation, on 02 March 2019 - 11:51 AM, said:

IS have on average, everything better than Clan mechs.

HAHAHA NO

[Angel of Annihilation]

Jay Leon Hart, on 02 March 2019 - 01:01 PM, said:

HAHAHA NO

Really. Prove it to me. Name one IS 75 ton mech that has lower than 10.79 Accel, 16.66 Decel, 34.95 Turn rate? Those are the Night Gyr's stats by the way.

Nothing I said is untrue. IS does have clear advantages in the mobility and agility traits. They also tend to be alot more durable. Hell my 70 ton Cataphract has as much armor value as my 100 ton Kodiak just to provide an example. Most of my 125+ plus IS mechs run cooler and can fire more often as well and don't have to give up as much face time to do it.

Clan advantages have been reduced down to better dissipation rate but only on those select few chassis where you can mount a massive amount of DHS but even then Clan mechs tend to reach their heat threshold caps much, much quicker than IS mechs. Another advantage is the Clan's can mount a larger amount of weapons due to the size and weight advantage but mounting more weapons just means more heat and again reaching the heat threshold cap much faster. Clan mechs also tend to be a bit faster again due to weight saving advantages allowing for a bigger engine but this advantage is generally crippled by the much lower agility and mobility stats Clan mechs have on average. I truly don't see the Clans as having much going for them aside from a few select mechs and variants and has found that I have went from playing Clan mechs pretty much on a 50/50 basis to spending 90% of my time playing IS mechs just because I do not feel it is very much fun playing Clan mechs right now. That last time I felt this way is back about 6 months after the Clan's came out. At that time I had almost completely stopped playing IS mechs because they just couldn't compete with Clan mechs and sold off about 80% of my IS mechs at the time. Guess it has went full circle, from massively Over-Powered Clans to now massively Over-Nerfed Clans.

Edited by Angel of Annihilation, 02 March 2019 - 01:34 PM.

[Prototelis]

Angel of Annihilation, on 02 March 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

Really. Prove it to me. Name one IS 75 ton mech that has lower than 10.79 Accel, 16.66 Decel, 34.95 Turn rate? Those are the Night Gyr's stats by the way.

Look. Most people don't make it through the unformatted blocks of word salad you toss every post.

Here is what people saw in your post;

Angel of Annihilation, on 02 March 2019 - 11:51 AM, said:

IS have on average, everything better than Clan mechs.

That is ******* wrong.

Edited by Prototelis, 02 March 2019 - 01:38 PM.

[FupDup]

Angel of Annihilation, on 02 March 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

Really. Prove it to me. Name one IS 75 ton mech that has lower than 10.79 Accel, 16.66 Decel, 34.95 Turn rate? Those are the Night Gyr's stats by the way.

Nothing I said is untrue. IS does have clear advantages in the mobility and agility traits. They also tend to be alot more durable. Hell my 70 ton Cataphract has as much armor value as my 100 ton Kodiak just to provide an example. Most of my 125+ plus IS mechs run cooler and can fire more often as well and don't have to give up as much face time to do it.

Clan advantages have been reduced down to better dissipation rate but only on those select few chassis where you can mount a massive amount of DHS but even then Clan mechs tend to reach their heat threshold caps much, much quicker than IS mechs. Another advantage is the Clan's can mount a larger amount of weapons due to the size and weight advantage but mounting more weapons just means more heat and again reaching the heat threshold cap much faster. Clan mechs also tend to be a bit faster again due to weight saving advantages allowing for a bigger engine but this advantage is generally crippled by the much lower agility and mobility stats Clan mechs have on average. I truly don't see the Clans as having much going for them aside from a few select mechs and variants and has found that I have went from playing Clan mechs pretty much on a 50/50 basis to spending 90% of my time playing IS mechs just because I do feel it is very much fun playing Clan mechs right now. That last time I felt this way is back about 6 months after the Clan's came out. At that time I had almost completely stopped playing IS mechs because they just count compete with Clan mechs and sold off about 80% of my IS mechs at the time. Guess it has went full circle, from massively Over-Powered Clans to now massively Over-Nerfed Clans.

I'll partially agree with you that lately I've been having higher quality of life with my IS gundams than my Clan gundams (RACs and MRMs are bae), but to say that the IS is better at everything is objectively false.

Clams still got more range and damage on their lasers, with the heat disadvantage being cancelled out by being able to cram in more DHS to sink all that heat (unless you're using a low end mech, then you're kinda boned). Still can boat way more missiles and ballistics, with the sheer volume of fire easily making up for the stream fire drawback. In general you don't have to make any building trade-offs because CXL is still better than STD even after the nerf and Endo + FF can fit on almost everything. They definitely still have the best PPC. Lastly, they've got a number of blessed apex chassis that are strong enough to go toe-to-toe with the best IS robots even while lacking quirks.

You can make the point about the current balancing methods of gimping agility and gimping engines to be unfun, but that's not the same as the faction being inferior.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Angel of Annihilation, on 02 March 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

Really. Prove it to me.

I'll prove the part I quoted (because I quoted that part for a reason)
Better Clan equipment & weapons;
ECM
AP
LAMS
TCs
Endo
Ferro
XL
Gauss
LMG/MG/HMG
Flamer
NARC
LBX-AC 2/5/10/20
SRM2 (*maybe* SRM6)
LRM5
ERSL/SPL

That's what springs to mind, at least.

So, no, "IS have on average, everything better than Clan mechs." is rubbish.

[Edit] DERP! Removed SL [/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 03 March 2019 - 06:18 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

FupDup, on 02 March 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

I'll partially agree with you that lately I've been having higher quality of life with my IS gundams than my Clan gundams (RACs and MRMs are bae), but to say that the IS is better at everything is objectively false.

Clams still got more range and damage on their lasers, with the heat disadvantage being cancelled out by being able to cram in more DHS to sink all that heat (unless you're using a low end mech, then you're kinda boned). Still can boat way more missiles and ballistics, with the sheer volume of fire easily making up for the stream fire drawback. In general you don't have to make any building trade-offs because CXL is still better than STD even after the nerf and Endo + FF can fit on almost everything. They definitely still have the best PPC. Lastly, they've got a number of blessed apex chassis that are strong enough to go toe-to-toe with the best IS robots even while lacking quirks.

You can make the point about the current balancing methods of gimping agility and gimping engines to be unfun, but that's not the same as the faction being inferior.

I didn't say the IS was better at everything, I even said that the Clans do still have some advantages but most of those advantages are offset by disadvantages while for the most part the IS mechs are all about advantages at this point.

Also all those advantages you mention exist on only a few select Clan mechs. I even mention this myself. The problem is that the entirety of the Clans is being balanced based on these Apex mechs that exist within their roster. For example anything you want to use lasers on has to be able to also fit 20+ DHS in order to cool those lasers.

Here is a prime example of what I am talking about. Lets compare two mechs, my Zeus-9S and my Warhammer IIC-3.

Zeus-9S.

62 Alpha
18 DHS

36.15 Acceleration
28.75 Deceleration
57.86 Turn Rate
103.5 Torso Twist Speed
90 degree Yaw Angle
100 CT Armor
65 CT Structure

Heat generated by a single Alpha = 48%

Warhammer IIC-3

64 Alpha
27 DHS

13.10 Acceleration
16.56 Deceleration
37.81 Turn Rate
72.00 Torso Twist Speed
75 degree Yaw Angle
100 CT Armor
50 CT Structure

Heat generate by a single Alpha = 78%

Do people not see the issue here?

The Zeus has nearly the same Alpha but only generates about half the heat to produce that Alpha. The Zeus has nearly 3 times the Acceleration, 2 times the the Deceleration and 1.5 times the turn rate. Then we have the Zeus with 1.5 times the torso twist speed and 15 degrees greater Yaw Angle. Finally to finish it up, 15 more points of internal structure in the CT. Oh and I forgot to mention that the Zeus' weapons fire much faster so it can add a follow on Alpha much quicker than the Warhammer IIC can.

What does the Warhammer IIC have as an advantage? Well heat dissipation because it does have 27 DHS but considering it has so much more heat to deal with, I am not sure how much of an advantage this really is. It is also about 10 kph faster but with these Acceleration, Deceleration and Turn rate numbers, again not sure how much of an advantage it really has. Ah but it has a range advantage.....but no, I am using Heavy Lasers and Medium Pulses on my Warhammer IIC, while I am using LLs and ER MLs on my Zeus so nope, it doesn't have a bit of range advantage going for it either.

Hmm, overall it seems to me that the numbers aren't lying here, the IS mech is CLEARLY SUPERIOR. This match up repeats itself quite often by the way, except on those few APEX Clan mechs like the Madcat MkII and a few others. All the rest of the Clan mechs are generally pretty clearly inferior.

Edited by Angel of Annihilation, 02 March 2019 - 11:06 PM.

[K O Z A K]

Angel of Annihilation, on 02 March 2019 - 11:04 PM, said:

....

There are plenty of garbage IS mechs, same as clan. As much as clan tech is based around top peformers, so is IS tech

though clan has been nerfed quite a bit, both sides are very competitive right now if used correctly

[WrathOfDeadguy]

I absolutely agree on the agility. The Zeus handles like a *dream.* Especially the Skoko, which also has MASC on top of best-in-class base agility stats. The WhamIIC is a bloody slug. It can't dance well enough to dodge enemy fire, and it can't twist well enough to spread, so it CT's out in literally seconds. It *needs* to turn and twist faster, and to twist farther- especially if PGI scales it up. It's pretty decent as-is because it has scale working for it. If it loses that advantage, it will become a badmech. Instantly.

However.

To say that the ZEU has the same level of firepower, or can put it on target just as well, is disingenuous... the Zeus's hardpoints, except for the Skoko's shoulder missiles, are mostly terrible. The WHM-IIC's are pretty reasonable, if not quite amazing like some other 'Mechs. Its torso mounts in particular are pretty great, all clustered up and not too low to work with; the 4xERPPC, 2xERPPC+2xGauss, and Gaussvomit builds all punt a very respectable amount of posterior because of how well it can focus at mid-long range. No Zeus has that. The best Zeus builds are at best hitting the short end of midrange, or else they're brawlers.

The punchiest Zeus builds rely on MRMs or a triple SRM fist to make up the alpha that they just can't mount enough lasers or ballistics to deliver, and those scatter damage all over the damn place (nevermind the horrors you have to inflict on your arm hitbox to pack that many missiles into it- the 3xMRM20 fist in particular has about the same target profile as the Goodyear Blimp). The Zeus has the stats it does for a good reason: prior to getting buffed, it was one of the weakest assaults. Right down there with pre-buff Mr. Gargles and the Awful. It's still not exactly a cheeseball pick- the Victor, with better durability, jets, and superior hardpoints, is better at just about everything, and the newer Hatamotos and Chargers also have better mounts. What I'm saying is, the Zeus is not a good example of an IS 'Mech having an advantage over... anything, really (other than the poor AWS). It needed that help just to make it up to par.

But my goodness, the WHM-IIC does need some agility. GAR or ZEU stats would be excessive for it, I think... but make it move as well as a Hatamoto, and that'll make a world of difference. Hell, even giving it Awesome level mobility would be an improvement (if not a particularly great one... the AWS still has pretty terrible stats for its Texas-sized profile, but slap the same numbers on the much smaller WHM-IIC and it might actually be good enough). Worst-in-class mobility simply does not suit a 'Mech that is also worst-in class for armor and structure.

Especially on the frelling Bludgeon, which even with jets is the weakest of the lineup by a mile and change because it can't dance well enough to justify its low hardpoint count.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 02 March 2019 - 11:35 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 02 March 2019 - 11:34 PM, said:

I absolutely agree on the agility. The Zeus handles like a *dream.* Especially the Skoko, which also has MASC on top of best-in-class base agility stats. The WhamIIC is a bloody slug. It can't dance well enough to dodge enemy fire, and it can't twist well enough to spread, so it CT's out in literally seconds. It *needs* to turn and twist faster, and to twist farther- especially if PGI scales it up. It's pretty decent as-is because it has scale working for it. If it loses that advantage, it will become a badmech. Instantly.

However.

To say that the ZEU has the same level of firepower, or can put it on target just as well, is disingenuous... the Zeus's hardpoints, except for the Skoko's shoulder missiles, are mostly terrible. The WHM-IIC's are pretty reasonable, if not quite amazing like some other 'Mechs. Its torso mounts in particular are pretty great, all clustered up and not too low to work with; the 4xERPPC, 2xERPPC+2xGauss, and Gaussvomit builds all punt a very respectable amount of posterior because of how well it can focus at mid-long range. No Zeus has that. The best Zeus builds are at best hitting the short end of midrange, or else they're brawlers.

The punchiest Zeus builds rely on MRMs or a triple SRM fist to make up the alpha that they just can't mount enough lasers or ballistics to deliver, and those scatter damage all over the damn place (nevermind the horrors you have to inflict on your arm hitbox to pack that many missiles into it- the 3xMRM20 fist in particular has about the same target profile as the Goodyear Blimp). The Zeus has the stats it does for a good reason: prior to getting buffed, it was one of the weakest assaults. Right down there with pre-buff Mr. Gargles and the Awful. It's still not exactly a cheeseball pick- the Victor, with better durability, jets, and superior hardpoints, is better at just about everything, and the newer Hatamotos and Chargers also have better mounts. What I'm saying is, the Zeus is not a good example of an IS 'Mech having an advantage over... anything, really (other than the poor AWS). It needed that help just to make it up to par.

But my goodness, the WHM-IIC does need some agility. GAR or ZEU stats would be excessive for it, I think... but make it move as well as a Hatamoto, and that'll make a world of difference. Hell, even giving it Awesome level mobility would be an improvement (if not a particularly great one... the AWS still has pretty terrible stats for its Texas-sized profile, but slap the same numbers on the much smaller WHM-IIC and it might actually be good enough). Worst-in-class mobility simply does not suit a 'Mech that is also worst-in class for armor and structure.

Especially on the frelling Bludgeon, which even with jets is the weakest of the lineup by a mile and change because it can't dance well enough to justify its low hardpoint count.

Here's the thing. I provided an example of two 80-ton mechs, both having nearly the same firepower, both primarily relying on lasers (though I do have a MRM20 on the Zeus-9S) and demonstrate in clear numbers how skewed those numbers are toward the IS mech and you basically say, "That doesn't count....for reasons." You even go as far to defend the Zeus inferiority by saying the hard point locations on the Warhammer IIC are better than on the Zeus-9S but you need to look again because both mechs have them all clustered just above the waist. They are even pretty similar in size though I will give you that the Warhammer IIC is a tad smaller. The fact there is a huge difference in the numbers very clearly showing the Zeus has superior performance characteristic. 1.5-3.0 times the value of the Warhammer IIC is not a small number and your going to be hard pressed to convince me that the Warhammer IIC is 2-3 times better than the Zeus.

This isn't directed at you because your pretty reasonable but generally speaking all I really keep hearing is, "But, But....it is IS and because it is IS it is clearly inferior" and it is so ingrained that even a clearly reasonable person like you, immediately has to point out how the IS mech is clearly inferior even when the numbers don't show anything of the sort. To me that is the major issue with 90% of the argument I hear when anyone tries to correct the misconceptions on Clan Superiority or heaven forbid point out that the Clans have been nerfed to the point they are now is the same exact spot IS mechs were back before the new tech dropped.

Why did the Warhammer IIC have to be released with such poor mobility stats? The only answer is because it is Clan. Even you agree that its stats are ridiculous but because it is a Clan mech, it has to come pre-nerfed from the factory. This is the state of the game now for most Clan mechs. In probably 80% of the cases, if you line up a Clan mech of a given weight next to a IS mech of a given weight, the IS mech will have much better performance characteristics and will be more durable to boot due to all the Armor and Structure quirks PGI throw at them. I even demonstrated with the Warhammer IIC how they don't even have much lager alpha's any more and much, much less sustained DPS due to heat. 2xHLL and 5xMPL isn't a gimp build either.

So yeah, it is going to be an uphill battle to get anyone to listen which is sad when such as obvious example such as what I provided doesn't seem to get past the indoctrination of Clan Superiority in all things, even when they aren't, not even close.

Edited by Angel of Annihilation, 03 March 2019 - 01:31 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Angel of Annihilation, on 02 March 2019 - 11:04 PM, said:

Here is a prime example of what I am talking about. Lets compare two mechs, my Zeus-9S and my Warhammer IIC-3.

Zeus-9S.

62 Alpha
18 DHS

Heat generated by a single Alpha = 48%

Warhammer IIC-3

64 Alpha
27 DHS

Heat generate by a single Alpha = 78%

Do people not see the issue here?

Erm...
For the Zeus, 3 LL + 3 ML = 42 damage, not 62 and with 18 DHS that's 48% heat, so maybe you looked at the wrong numbers?

Also, why not ERML instead of MPL on the WHM-IIC? Better range synergy & the longer duration is still less than the HLL, so it doesn't matter. It also allows for 3/4 more DHS.

Generates 88% heat for me (both 'mechs w/o heat skills)

[R E X I OS]

Don't forget about Ghost heat guys.
Clan 2 Large lasers only before penalty.
IS 3 Large Lasers before penalty.

Enough said.