274 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

SirSmokes, on 06 March 2019 - 09:26 AM, said:

Some people can read the range finder and can keep the distance they need too;)

Thats just immersion. Just like the MinMap...

[The pessimistic optimist]

InspectorG, on 06 March 2019 - 09:41 AM, said:

Thats just immersion. Just like the MinMap...

Because yes in 1000 year they don't have advance tech and satrllite.

[Weeny Machine]

SirSmokes, on 06 March 2019 - 10:02 AM, said:

Because yes in 1000 year they don't have advance tech and satrllite.

I wouldn't hold a bet that human kind is still existing in 1000 years

[The pessimistic optimist]

Bush Hopper, on 06 March 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

I wouldn't hold a bet that human kind is still existing in 1000 years

I really don't;)

[The6thMessenger]

Vxheous, on 06 March 2019 - 05:41 AM, said:

If any of you didn't already know, there's an aussie streamer that's a C4 quadraplegic, that's right, QUADRAPLEGIC. He can still aim and not use lock on weapons, none of you have any excuses. Here's his stream btw, you can see he's literally strapped down, and uses various controls and even a mouthpiece.

https://www.twitch.tv/bishopwarrior

I've seen that guy a few times in game.

Sure he's quadriplegic, there's a lot of disabled people in the world. But what they had is time to get accustomed to their deficiency, time to get accustomed with the game. Mechanical ability is one thing, but acquired skill and proficiency is another. That is something you cannot reasonably expect for new comers.

And then to the crux of the problem, I don't care about BishopWarrior, I really don't. What he does and what he is capable is irrelevant to me because he's not me, and he's not the other people. To put this in real life, do you know what Ronald Jenkees is? He's IIRC a mentally disabled music producer, so if a Mentally Disabled could make music and be famous -- why can't I right? Well, life is tough like that.

I get that you're highlighting that what you are saying basically "He can, therefore you also could", and you know what, sure. I know I don't have the best aim, but I can aim. But this would just set people up with an Inferiority Complex when they realize that life doesn't work like that. I know I'm not going to be famous, or be the best there is, but I'd rather just have fun.

Right now, my concern is however, perhaps this standard of aim is too high, that we have poor new comers, and player retention because of it. If you're going to hold people at such standard, take it up with the veterans, not the newbies.

EDIT:

Also, looking at him at twitch, I do think that homing-weapons is probably not even a good fit. I mean yes he could snap-fire and he's doing well at it with lasers and ACs, but using LRMs and ATMs would require a long amount of aiming, steady tracking of the target, that I cannot reasonably expect from him in the first place.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 06 March 2019 - 03:34 PM.

[Charles Sennet]

Yondu posted a match which he did 5.6K damage with LRM's in FP with minimal exposure. This is not okay and I'm very concerned for the health of the game if major changes are not made.

Edited by Charles Sennet, 06 March 2019 - 03:44 PM.

[Mystere]

Charles Sennet, on 06 March 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

Yondu posted a match which he did 5.6K damage with LRM's in FP with minimal exposure. This is not okay and I'm very concerned for the health of the game if major changes are not made.

A single match, not a hundred, not a thousand, not ten thousand.

Edited by Mystere, 06 March 2019 - 04:50 PM.

[Khobai]

Charles Sennet, on 06 March 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

Yondu posted a match which he did 5.6K damage with LRM's in FP with minimal exposure. This is not okay and I'm very concerned for the health of the game if major changes are not made.

he lost the game though.

not that one game is evidence of anything. but he didnt even win the game...

if he wasnt using LRMs his team probably wouldve won. because his team only lost by a few kills and the lack of lethal damage coming from LRMs as opposed to if he used real weapons probably wouldve made the difference. id much rather have someone do 2500-3000 lethal damage with actual weapons than 5.6k spread damage with LRMs.

If youre basing all your balance decisions on the outcome of this one game, you could just as easily argue him using LRMs cost his team the game and it honestly wouldnt be a stretch given how close the game was.

But yeah lets not base any balance decisions on the outcome of a single game...

Edited by Khobai, 06 March 2019 - 05:25 PM.

[Tesunie]

Mystere, on 06 March 2019 - 04:49 PM, said:

A single match, not a hundred, not a thousand, not ten thousand.

This is like I've recently had a match where I only did 18 points of damage in an Annihilator, so it must be a bad mech. (PS: I got shot in the back once, side torso went cherry red (as it was dual H. Gauss that hit) and... cooked my ammo. Dead with a single shot.)

BUT, that was only a single match with the mech...

[Tesunie]

Khobai, on 06 March 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

so you could just as easily argue him using LRMs cost his team the game and it honestly wouldnt be a stretch given how close the game was.

OR

You could argue that his team may not have taken enough advantage of the damage he dealt... I mean, who's to really say after all.

(Or, if he just indirect fired, it could have also been that he didn't share enough armor with the rest of his team, making his team hit the damage threshold sooner. Once again, who's to really say in the end.)

[Khobai]

Tesunie, on 06 March 2019 - 05:25 PM, said:

OR

You could argue that his team may not have taken enough advantage of the damage he dealt... I mean, who's to really say after all.

(Or, if he just indirect fired, it could have also been that he didn't share enough armor with the rest of his team, making his team hit the damage threshold sooner. Once again, who's to really say in the end.)

Right you dont know how it couldve turned out if things were done differently

But the one thing we do know for certain is that he lost the game. And you cant use a game someone lost as evidence that LRMs are OP. Because he didnt carry his team. He still lost.

Not that single games should count for anything as far as balance decisions go. But if they did, this game still wouldnt count for anything because he lost.

When people start getting 5k damage every game with LRMs and actually winning then its cause for concern.

Edited by Khobai, 06 March 2019 - 05:32 PM.

[Prototelis]

The6thMessenger, on 06 March 2019 - 03:04 PM, said:

I've seen that guy a few times in game.

Sure he's quadriplegic, there's a lot of disabled people in the world. But what they had is time to get accustomed to their deficiency, time to get accustomed with the game. Mechanical ability is one thing, but acquired skill and proficiency is another. That is something you cannot reasonably expect for new comers.

Your post in a nutshell;

"Well this guy had to work hard to get good at the game because he's disabled. I'm not, so why should I have to try to be good at the game?"

[Charles Sennet]

Mystere, on 06 March 2019 - 04:49 PM, said:

A single match, not a hundred, not a thousand, not ten thousand.

High damage with lurms on this map and others is quite common. The point is that high damage should not be possible while not exposing yourself to danger. It promotes cancerous gameplay which is what we are straddling and the what many people are frustrated by.

[Tesunie]

Prototelis, on 06 March 2019 - 07:13 PM, said:

Your post in a nutshell;

"Well this guy had to work hard to get good at the game because he's disabled. I'm not, so why should I have to try to be good at the game?"

Okay then. Some 12 yr old just got his second masters degree. So, why did it take you till the age of 17-18 to just graduate High School, if you even graduated High School?

I think that is more so the point. Just because someone is gifted at something, no matter their situation, it doesn't mean everyone else will be able to do the same thing just as well. I mean, I use a mouse and keyboard to play this game. I'm not going to start using a mouthpiece to operate this game just because someone else can.

I'd also like to mention, there are also people born with no arms that can do, by normal standards, amazing things with their feet. That doesn't mean everyone will be able to do said things with their feet. Actually, most people can't even come close.

Just becomes someone is exceptional and amazing, doesn't mean we all have the same reflexes, skills, knowledge and abilities. I've impressed and incredibly happy that someone who has the difficulties that player has can do so well. He certainly deserves acknowledgement for his ability. However, that doesn't mean we all should be held to those standards.

[Tesunie]

Charles Sennet, on 06 March 2019 - 07:28 PM, said:

You want testing... I've played more than 20,000 FP matches over the years. I'm certain this is more than all of PGI's employees combined. Certainly more than most players (currently #1 on the MERC leaderboard).

The fact that it is even possible to do that much damage while not risking exposure is hugely problematic. Those of us who play FP know that certain maps are almost certain NARC-LURM fests. This is not good for the game and many veterans are frustrated at the prospect of lurms getting even better with the next patch. The OP is absolutely correct in his assessment. Something needs to change and the next patch is not the change we need.

The biggest change (as far as I recall) was altering their direct fire abilities. Last I recall (I could be wrong here) indirect fired LRMs were actually going to take a bit of a hit.

Isn't making direct fired LRMs more beneficial actually in the alignment of encouraging LRM users to get out of cover and shoot their weapons with direct line of sight? Isn't that what you are asking for? LRM users to "stop hiding in the back, behind cover, "leaching" off the team's hard work"*?

These changes to direct fired LRMs should also encourage more "armor sharing", which is also something people want. It also benefits LRM users to get their own locks... Isn't all of this what people desired as changes to LRMs? To make them more beneficial in direct line of sight combat for armor sharing and things?

* I've always found LRMs best when worked from the mid to near front of the group (400-600m, closer to minimum range, the better they perform). I might not pull those super high damage numbers with my LRMs alone, but I feel I have more impact. Then again, I also don't boat LRMs and normally bring sufficient direct fire weapons. I realize LRM strengths, as well as recognize and acknowledge their weaknesses.

[The6thMessenger]

Prototelis, on 06 March 2019 - 07:13 PM, said:

Your post in a nutshell;

"Well this guy had to work hard to get good at the game because he's disabled. I'm not, so why should I have to try to be good at the game?"

No. Rather:

"This guy worked hard to get good at the game. His progress is irrelevant to my progress."

But I guess its just easier to misrepresent someone than actually deal with his point.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 06 March 2019 - 09:27 PM.

[Prototelis]

The6thMessenger, on 06 March 2019 - 09:18 PM, said:

No. Rather:

"This guy worked hard to get good at the game. His progress is irrelevant to my progress."

But I guess its just easier to misrepresent someone than actually deal with his point.

No, it is not. If someone with clear severe disadvantages progresses to the point of not needing to use auto-aim it completely defeats the point of the "strong auto-aim for the disabled" argument.

And to say he can't hold a lock when you can watch him hold laser burns on chosen components is stupid.

[Prototelis]

Tesunie, on 06 March 2019 - 07:36 PM, said:

Okay then. Some 12 yr old just got his second masters degree. So, why did it take you till the age of 17-18 to just graduate High School, if you even graduated High School?

Wow, way to compare two very disparate concepts. That sure proved your point.

Quote

I think that is more so the point. Just because someone is gifted at something, no matter their situation, it doesn't mean everyone else will be able to do the same thing just as well.

What kind of world do you live in where being quadriplegic is being gifted?

[Tesunie]

Prototelis, on 06 March 2019 - 09:37 PM, said:

No, it is not. If someone with clear severe disadvantages progresses to the point of not needing to use auto-aim it completely defeats the point of the "strong auto-aim for the disabled" argument.

And to say he can't hold a lock when you can watch him hold laser burns on chosen components is stupid.

Still not entirely accurate. Some of it will depend upon the disability, how long they have had it, and how well they cope and have adjusted to said disability.

As someone who has recently developed intense knee pains (in both knees) due to arthritis (and I'm not that old), I'm understanding some of this. Now, you might think this wouldn't have any affect on my game play, being knee related instead of upper body, but let me just say, it has had a major impact on my performance. It's hard to play well when just sitting up straight enough to play the game increases my pain. I've only been dealing with this pain since late July, so I've barely even begun to find ways to deal with it, manage it, and alleviate or avoid the pain. And that's just myself!

Someone else who has shaky hands will have other problems and needs, and will need other methods to overcome or compensate for those issues.

Someone else might have only one hand/arm. They may have even lost that arm only a few years ago. They will be different than someone who never was born with the said appendage, or had it removed at a very early portion of their life, the younger a tragedy like that happens, the faster and better that adjust to the changes. Those who where never born know no other way of doing something, making them even more likely to overcome the difficulties associated with a disability.

So, in short... No. Though I don't mind more skillful requirements to get better performance from things in a game, I might want to mention that even LRM homing elements require skills to use well. Often just different skills than is needed for other, more direct fired, items. Giving bonuses for direct fired LRMs increases the skill needed for better performance, as well as aids in other aspects people often complain about with LRM use (and their often poor use of them within the team dynamic).

Prototelis, on 06 March 2019 - 09:41 PM, said:

Wow, way to compare two very disparate concepts. That sure proved your point.


What kind of world do you live in where being quadriplegic is being gifted?

Wow. What a way to take everything, and remove all context.

Bravo. Well done.

[Prototelis]

Oh okay, here is the context;

None of what you're arguing supports the "auto-aim has to be strong for the disabled" argument.