274 replies to this topic

[Mkoll666]

Tesunie, on 08 March 2019 - 09:53 AM, said:

Remember, what you call unfun, some of us enjoy. Or are you complaining because "they are shooting me and I can't shoot them back"?

first of jeah ofc it is fun to shoot people without counterplay and it is especially fun when u group drop and abuse this, all ur tips and ur wrong understanding of game mechanics clearly shows u have no idea how this game actually works.

ams in masses is okay but gets invalidated by the fact that u need to mass them and ur team which u have no influence on.
and positioning is a ******** argument, yes positioning is the key to mwo, and denying 90% of the map because of a skillless weapon system and bad map design is a terrible idea

Edited by Mkoll666, 08 March 2019 - 10:21 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

Tesunie, on 08 March 2019 - 10:12 AM, said:

Most of this thread has been about opinion (LRMs bad for game play), vs actual facts being displayed. In some respect, opinion is fine, as opinions are drawn from our individual experiences.

I mean, my opinion of H.Gauss (for use and being shot with) is that it's bad for me to use (I don't do so well with charge weapons it seems) but at the same time dual H. Gauss with it's 50 pin point damage feels a tad too strong to me. Someone else will come along and tell me their "opinion" that H. Gauss is just fine. The charge mechanic makes it so it requires more skill to use, so that skill should rightly be rewarded with 50 PPFLD when used correctly, and that nothing is wrong with high alpha values.

The beauty of opinion is, we are all entitled to our own. The problem is when opinion gets tossed out as fact. For example:

Opinion: I get poor performance from AMS, so I don't take it because I think it's junk.

Opinion: AMS is really strong. They keep shooting down my missiles before they even get to leave the tubes, blinding myself with my own missile explosions.

Fact: AMS can take down upwards of 15+ missiles with reasonable positioning, per AMS. 5-8 missiles when those missiles are directed at you.

Neither stated opinion overrides the fact of what AMS actually does. However, each opinion is based off someone's person experiences. As we each have different experiences, we each will form different opinions. It does not make those opinions right nor wrong.

No, fact is the not insignificant amount of players very clearly (using words and numbers and stuff) demonstrating your opinion (and others who hold it) to be incorrect, players who have not only superior skill and knowledge, but demonstrated real growth across seasons which indicates an actual attempt at analyzing and processing the application of various gameplay mechanics.

[Tesunie]

Mkoll666, on 08 March 2019 - 10:16 AM, said:

first of jeah ofc it is fun to shoot people without counterplay and it is especially fun when u group drop and abuse this, all ur tips and ur wrong understanding of game mechanics clearly shows u have no idea how this game actually works.

Plenty of counter play.

So, correct me on my "poor understanding of game mechanics"? What information did I present that is wrong, and if so, how does it actually work? I really don't like presenting poor information... so please refine my knowledge.

thievingmagpi, on 08 March 2019 - 10:18 AM, said:

No, fact is the not insignificant amount of players very clearly (using words and numbers and stuff) demonstrating your opinion (and others who hold it) to be incorrect, players who have not only superior skill and knowledge, but demonstrated real growth across seasons which indicates an actual attempt at analyzing and processing the application of various gameplay mechanics.

I repeat to you what I mentioned above:
What information did I get wrong, and what is the correct information so I can provide that information in possible future situations?

[Mkoll666]

Tesunie, on 08 March 2019 - 10:20 AM, said:

Plenty of counter play.

So, correct me on my "poor understanding of game mechanics"? What information did I present that is wrong, and if so, how does it actually work? I really don't like presenting poor information... so please refine my knowledge.

your 0.28kd in the last month shows pretty clearly that u dont have any idea how the game works and how to play it properly and in general u dont play alot in the past couple of month (which means u have no idea of the meta going on) and u consistently got worse on top of that (instead of better) on top of that ur idea how good ams etc is, is just wrong

Edited by Mkoll666, 08 March 2019 - 11:48 AM.

[Tesunie]

Mkoll666, on 08 March 2019 - 10:23 AM, said:

your 0.28kd in the last month shows pretty clearly that u dont have any idea how the game works and play it properly and in general u dont play alot in the past month (which means u have no idea of the meta going on) and u consistently got worse on top of that (instead of better)

Oh. Here comes the stat contest! I KNEW someone was going to do that. Can't actually describe what effects AMS has, so now they have to go to stats and point out "my KDR is better than your's".

I've been dealing with intense knee pain (in both knees) from Arthritis... I can't play the game as much as I'd like because it puts me into pain. I avoid pain right now. I've been having this pain since August.

I don't care about getting kills. I've intentionally ignore a walking stick with no weapons (instead of getting the kill) to aim at more threatening targets.

This is a game. The game rewards team play. Getting that killing shot doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing.

I don't always play the same mechs. I like to experiment. If I wanted to fall into stale and boring game play (playing the same things over and over again), I'd have never moved on from my Huntsmen. Instead, I've experimented with the Black Lanner, The Annihilator, the Katana Kat Panther Hero, Warhammer IIC hero, Champions...

Oh, and did I forget to mention knee pain?


I'd like to mention, anyway, that actual in game performance does not relate to game function knowledge. So, I ask once again...

Tesunie, on 08 March 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

So, correct me on my "poor understanding of game mechanics"? What information did I present that is wrong, and if so, how does it actually work? I really don't like presenting poor information... so please refine my knowledge.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'd like to know what information is wrong, and what the correct values are so I spread correct information rather than false. I am NOT looking for a contest on who's the best pilot between us, which actually doesn't relate to technical knowledge.

[thievingmagpi]

Tesunie, on 08 March 2019 - 10:44 AM, said:

Oh. Here comes the stat contest! I KNEW someone was going to do that. Can't actually describe what effects AMS has, so now they have to go to stats and point out "my KDR is better than your's".

I've been dealing with intense knee pain (in both knees) from Arthritis... I can't play the game as much as I'd like because it puts me into pain. I avoid pain right now. I've been having this pain since August.

I don't care about getting kills. I've intentionally ignore a walking stick with no weapons (instead of getting the kill) to aim at more threatening targets.

This is a game. The game rewards team play. Getting that killing shot doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing.

I don't always play the same mechs. I like to experiment. If I wanted to fall into stale and boring game play (playing the same things over and over again), I'd have never moved on from my Huntsmen. Instead, I've experimented with the Black Lanner, The Annihilator, the Katana Kat Panther Hero, Warhammer IIC hero, Champions...

Oh, and did I forget to mention knee pain?


I'd like to mention, anyway, that actual in game performance does not relate to game function knowledge. So, I ask once again...


If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'd like to know what information is wrong, and what the correct values are so I spread correct information rather than false. I am NOT looking for a contest on who's the best pilot between us, which actually doesn't relate to technical knowledge.

Largely it does.

This game is absolutely not technically limiting. Its probably the lowest demand as far as technical ability out of any online pvp game. My aim is absolutely abysmal, but I've managed how to get my w/l consistently over 1, though not by much. Good decision making is ultimately a greater determining factor in wins and contribution to your team than great aim.

Don't confuse pointing out growth in player ability with "stat shaming". Everyone has a place in this game, every single person.

What you're seeing as "stat shaming" is simply demonstrating that many very good players often started off as very bad players. There's progression there, there's learning there. You're certainly welcome to say what you like to do and what works for you, but you cannot, in any good faith, sit there and tell someone who has progressed from 50th percentile to 98th percentile how to play. "All you need to do is use AMS", like that's some hidden mechanic these players are completely unaware of.

Many of these players know these mechanics inside and out and can recite cooldown times, armour values, quirks, ranges, cycle times and heat-spike levels on a per mech, per volley, per map basis. If there were some hush-hush comp tier hidden tricks, they would know about it.

It's ignorant of the amount of effort and dedication (and overall love of the mechwarrior IP) a lot of good players took to get there.

The fact of this is that many of these players understand the discrepancy in outcome, and the negative effect it has on gameplay that systems like LRMs contribute to.

There are a baker's dozen threads discussing the viability of lrms in an online pvp game. All of them have the exact same pattern.

[Kubernetes]

^This.

After my first year I had a 1.3 KDR. I now regularly come in around a 4 KDR. If you haven't gotten better at the game over time, it's an indication that you really have no idea what you're doing.

If some dude with impressive stats tells me "Do this," I'm going to test it out for myself. If some dude with a 0.3 KDR says "Do this," I'm gonna respond "No, the things you do get yourself killed."

Edited by Kubernetes, 08 March 2019 - 12:29 PM.

[Nightbird]

I'm amused that people think it's being buffed. LRMs are getting nerfed

[Tesunie]

thievingmagpi, on 08 March 2019 - 11:05 AM, said:

Don't confuse pointing out growth in player ability with "stat shaming". Everyone has a place in this game, every single person.

What you're seeing as "stat shaming" is simply demonstrating that many very good players often started off as very bad players. There's progression there, there's learning there. You're certainly welcome to say what you like to do and what works for you, but you cannot, in any good faith, sit there and tell someone who has progressed from 50th percentile to 98th percentile how to play. "All you need to do is use AMS", like that's some hidden mechanic these players are completely unaware of.

My issue is that he's throwing stats out, like it invalidates what I'm saying as a functional piece of the game. He tossed in stats like it means something in a technical discussion about how (in this case) AMS operates.

Often, those people who I find complaining at the same crowd of people who refuse to take AMS because "it's a waste of tonnage, why take that when I can use the tonnage on this". AMS is more effective than a lot of people seem to think.

A lot of people whom have progressed in the game, tend to seem to toss things like AMS (myself included here) to the wayside because "we know how to counter them without the need of AMS". There is a lot of truth in that, but if you suddenly start to have specific problems with LRMs, then consider trying AMS out again.

AMS can do wonders against LRMs. I've posted what their average missile take down seems to be from what I've observed. If LRMs are being a problem in damage ("They can do billions of damage in 3 seconds flat!"*) than consider AMS.
*These numbers are an exaggeration.

So far, I've as of yet seen anyone say what other expected results should be seen from AMS, in terms of expected missile shot down. On this technical side, if my numbers are incorrect I would like the correct estimations of missiles shot down posted for clarity. Instead, I didn't get any technical information on AMS performance (what I'm guessing is incorrect with my information?) I got "your KDR (which is not a relevant stat to begin with) is low". That... has nothing to do with technical information.

This is like going to a bank where I have a 0.1 interest rate, commenting that I should gain a dime for every dollar I have in my savings account with that rate, and then having someone walking up and saying I'm wrong because I only have $35 in my account instead of $100... That has no standing on the interest rate amount that was being discussed.


So, I welcome people once again to say what I have wrong with my technical stats I've presented on game mechanics. Am I incorrect about Stealth Armor dropping locks instantly? Does a PPC shot to a stealthed mech disable it's ECM and it's Stealth Armor if the armor was already engaged? Does AMS only shoot down 3 LRMs when the volley is heading right at you, rather than 5-8? Did they change AMS to take down only a percentage now instead of what it use to be? Is AMS now capped at only being able to take down 90% of missiles, rather than possibly all the missiles like I described?

These are things that interest me. How my stats have gone down since last October (FYI: Huntsmen release) has no impact on the technical workings of game mechanics I've described so far...

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Nightbird, on 08 March 2019 - 11:18 AM, said:

I'm amused that people think it's being buffed. LRMs are getting nerfed

Which is just sad. LRM's have the most direct counters in the game in the form of ECM, Stealth Armor, Hard Cover, radar derp, and AMS.

No other weapons system save for streaks, suffer more, streaks literally only have it worse because ECM means they can't even direct fire, at least LRM's have the option to fire without lock, streaks can't even do that. AMS doesn't stop lasers of ballistic weaponry, and even if a mech is under ECM and Stealth, I can still shoot an AC20 round at it...

But not with LRM's, and the existing arcs and travel time makes IDF fire at a target moving without lock absolutely pointless.

Everyone whines and cries that LRM's are OP... but they fail to realise that a proper LRM boat has to weigh all of the issues, we have to be concerned with every form of counter the game throws at us, and we're absolutely useless if ams is brought in any kind of real numbers.

If you're so concerned about LRM's, swap to ensuring your builds have AMS included... if you're just going to whine about having to put AMS on your mechs, that simply tells me you're too stuck in your ways to adapt, and can't min/max around having to have 1.5 tons of extra equipment, which just tells me you're not very good to begin with.

[Tesunie]

Nightbird, on 08 March 2019 - 11:18 AM, said:

I'm amused that people think it's being buffed. LRMs are getting nerfed

Last I knew (which I've been saying here) is that indirect fired LRMs are getting nerfed, while direct fired LRMs are getting buffed.

Seen as we've been discussing "cancerous" game play of indirect fired LRMs being a detriment to the game... I'm surprised they are complaining about these changes. I'm wondering if I misread something along the way... but so far no one here has said anything to confirm or deny if I did misread something about the possible changes to missile behavior. Biggest issues I've seen as been ATM velocity going up...

[Mystere]

thievingmagpi, on 08 March 2019 - 09:59 AM, said:

you'd better adjust your glasses then.

I've got 20/20. So if you're seeing mine being off, it's yours that needs adjusting.

[Mkoll666]

Kubernetes, on 08 March 2019 - 11:15 AM, said:

f you haven't gotten better at the game over time, it's an indication that you really have no idea what you're doing.

If some dude with impressive stats tells me "Do this," I'm going to test it out for myself. If some dude with a 0.3 KDR says "Do this," I'm gonna respond "No, the things you do get yourself killed."

exactly this.

@Tesunie ur arthrits is bad and all but everyone has to pack his/her burden, I am suffering from brokenbellycover break and just 2hours ago I was in such great pain that I threw up and I have that every ******* day too and I still manage to get okay stats (and no I dont mean kd specific but all stats together is an indication on what and how u are doing) the mere problem is that u dont play this game enough and if u do u are so bad atm (what ever the reason might be) that u cant properly judge whats going on

Edited by Mkoll666, 08 March 2019 - 11:58 AM.

[Nightbird]

Tesunie, on 08 March 2019 - 11:29 AM, said:

Last I knew (which I've been saying here) is that indirect fired LRMs are getting nerfed, while direct fired LRMs are getting buffed.

Seen as we've been discussing "cancerous" game play of indirect fired LRMs being a detriment to the game... I'm surprised they are complaining about these changes. I'm wondering if I misread something along the way... but so far no one here has said anything to confirm or deny if I did misread something about the possible changes to missile behavior. Biggest issues I've seen as been ATM velocity going up...

Direct fire LRMs is nerfed as well, gonna be super easy to poke and lead LRMs on a flat trajectory into an obstacle.

[Kubernetes]

Tesunie, on 08 March 2019 - 11:24 AM, said:

Stuff about AMS..

Dude, you had a 6% survival rate last season. You regularly survive less than 20% of matches. You really have no business lecturing anyone about how to stay alive.

We understand what AMS does and how it works, it's just that on many builds it's either unnecessary or the tonnage can be more effectively used on DHS or ammo. Build decisions are about trade-offs, and AMS is one of the first things to get removed when other priorities come into play.

[Tesunie]

Mkoll666, on 08 March 2019 - 11:54 AM, said:

exactly this.

@Tesunie ur arthrits is bad and all but everyone has to pack his/her burden, I am suffering from brokenbellycover break and just 2hours ago I was in such great pain that I threw up and I have that every ******* day too and I still manage to get okay stats (and no I dont mean kd specific but all stats together is an indication on what and how u are doing) the mere problem is that u dont play this game enough and if u do u are so bad atm (what ever the reason might be) that u cant properly judge whats going on

Once more... relevance to actual data on game mechanics? You still have failed to refute or present any additional information on discussed mechanics, such as AMS effectiveness, Stealth Armor behavior, etc. You've continued to compare us as pilots with complete disregard to the information at hand.

So, you've said I'm incorrect on my information. What information is incorrect? What are the correct values? Am I saying MLs deal 6 damage when they deal 5? If I'm saying the wrong value, correct me please. Otherwise, my K/R, average match score, etc does not have relevance.

This is now, what? The third time I've ask for the correct information to be presented to inform me about what information I'm presenting that is incorrect?

[Mystere]

Kubernetes, on 08 March 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

We understand what AMS does and how it works, it's just that on many builds it's either unnecessary or the tonnage can be more effectively used on DHS or ammo.

Ok. There is no argument from me on that one. But ...

Kubernetes, on 08 March 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

Build decisions are about trade-offs, and AMS is one of the first things to get removed when other priorities come into play.

I am of the opinion that if some of the people who decided to chose the "other priorities" at the same time also stopped biatching about being butchered by LRMs, this thread might have ended a long time ago.

Edited by Mystere, 08 March 2019 - 12:41 PM.

[Tesunie]

Nightbird, on 08 March 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

Direct fire LRMs is nerfed as well, gonna be super easy to poke and lead LRMs on a flat trajectory into an obstacle.

I'm wondering how the flatter trajectory is going to affect things. One of my favorite things to do is use LRMs on jumping mechs. I'm curious to see how the new trajectory is going to impact my favorite play style.

Kubernetes, on 08 March 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

Dude, you had a 6% survival rate last season. You regularly survive less than 20% of matches. You really have no business lecturing anyone about how to stay alive.

We understand what AMS does and how it works, it's just that on many builds it's either unnecessary or the tonnage can be more effectively used on DHS or ammo. Build decisions are about trade-offs, and AMS is one of the first things to get removed when other priorities come into play.

Yup. Stats again in a technical information department... *Sigh* Is this a game, or a competition I wasn't aware of? Am I allowed to have fun, or must I only play in a competitive sense? Do I have to use only my best mechs? I think having visible stats is "cancerous" to this game...

As for AMS, it is once again said "there are better things to do with the tonnage". If you have issues with LRMs, then don't complain about them if you refuse to take any amount of AMS. If it's effectiveness is so well known, yet it's removed and then people complain about LRM spam, while still refusing to take AMS, a known counter... That's like complaining about direct fire weapons, and when someone says "poke from cover, twist your torso to redirect damage, etc" and you go "naw... I don't want to do that, I'd rather complain about how accurate those weapons are instead"... I'm sorry. It's kinda silly.

If you have issues with "massed LRMs" and refuse to do anything to counter it... I think it's kinda silly to continue going on about how LRMs are to the game. As mentioned before, AMS can be very effective. If you refuse to use it and want LRMs removed/nerfed/reduced/discouraged because "you can't be bothered to take this"... I'm sorry. Missiles, in particular note ATMs and LRMs, are the only weapons with any real counter gear you can take. They have so much gear to counter them, yet no one seems to want to take any of it and instead wants to just complain about it.

I wonder if Gauss, PPC, Lasers, etc had counter gear if people would take them, or call them a waste of tonnage as well? Reflective/Reactive armor? Blue Shield? Or would they, like AMS, fall to the wayside for "other things" because they are situational?

[Kubernetes]

Here's the deal: I don't have a problem surviving vs LRMs, and most good players don't either. I'll explain why, but let's get the truth of LRMS.

1) They suck in QP. Not all the time, but enough to create huge variance in performance. The weapons themselves put out tremendous DPS, but effectiveness is often dependent on factors outside of your control. You aren't guaranteed to get Narc Lights or other spotter support. You're not guaranteed to match up with any other LRM boats. A good deadsided build can survive against a single LRMer for a seeming eternity. Ever tried to kill a Std engined Marauder 3R with LRMs? Tell me how long it takes.

2) They're almost (some would say definitely) OP in FP or any organized team play. Why? Because a team can negate all the disadvantages. You can drop with two Ravens, 8-10 boats, and maybe some brawlers as close-in bodyguards. Ever been in a match like that? It's disgusting. No AMS can stop that. The enemy can drop with 12 trip-AMS Novas and still they'll die seconds after getting targeted. You can win 48-12, and the 12 deaths are from ejecting when running out of ammo.

3) I don't care all that much because I've pretty much just been playing QP this past year. I probably die from LRMs once a week. It's simply not worth 1.5 tons for such a minimal threat, especially when I'm running Lights or Mediums.

And yeah, I keep pointing to your stats, Tesunie. I really don't understand how you can perform so poorly despite thinking about the game so much. Maybe you should do the opposite of everything you're doing now and see how that works out.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Kubernetes, on 08 March 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

And yeah, I keep pointing to your stats, Tesunie. I really don't understand how you can perform so poorly despite thinking about the game so much. Maybe you should do the opposite of everything you're doing now and see how that works out.

Different philosophy on how to have fun, that's how.

To you, min-maxing, getting the absolute last drop of performance out of your mech, riding that heat wave, all of that, is how you have fun, gaming the numbers, all of that is where you're going in and crunching all the numbers. Using the meta and not deviating. That's the fun to you.

For many of us though, that's NOT fun, that's tiring... Yes, the average person who puts the time in, can get good with the meta, or even GREAT with the meta, consistently do well for themselves, and have huge numbers.

But to many of us, that's boring, especially considering the depth of the setting, the history of Battletech, the roles of mechs, all of that. To many of us, that's what matters over constantly min/maxing.

For some of us, we've been playing this franchise since the 90's, and in some cases the 80's... we've been down this road, we remember boating ERML's in Mechwarrior 2 and blasting off everything's legs, we remember doing the same in Mechwarrior 3, Many of us were there for the poptart meta that was Mech 4 and Mech 4 mercs... And that kind of gameplay, the munchkin meta... is very, VERY stale to many of us... because we've been doing it for over 20+ years.

Just keep that in mind, before you go around throwing out stats, stats, are not the end all, be all my friend.