274 replies to this topic

[Acersecomic]

Dogstar, on 15 March 2019 - 02:55 AM, said:

It would be interesting to see what would happen if betty bitched about _all_ weapon types - I'm sure there would be calls for nerfs to everything

Betty: 'Incoming missiles'
Betty: 'Lasers! Pew! Pew!'
Betty: 'That was a gauss hit *******'
Betty: 'Can you not see the other mech with the autocannons?'
Betty: 'Oh look, a Piranha, you're $%^&ed now'

Guess which one can shoot you behind most cover with no way to retaliate and sometimes put you out of the fight before you even get to reach any cover, if the map provides cover in the first place.
Would be funny if it was gauss because then I could say "gauss which one" bwahaha

[Weeny Machine]

Dogstar, on 15 March 2019 - 02:55 AM, said:

It would be interesting to see what would happen if betty bitched about _all_ weapon types - I'm sure there would be calls for nerfs to everything

Betty: 'Incoming missiles'
Betty: 'Lasers! Pew! Pew!'
Betty: 'That was a gauss hit *******'
Betty: 'Can you not see the other mech with the autocannons?'
Betty: 'Oh look, a Piranha, you're $%^&ed now'

No thanks, that would sound too much like my last girlfriend

[Tesunie]

Kroete, on 15 March 2019 - 02:28 AM, said:

30 seconds,
30 seconds with betty bitching about incomming lrms,
and you were not able to get cover or break los in 30 seconds?
Maybe its not the weapon?

Did you also miss the range? 1000+m, which would mean every LRM launcher took max range skills, and the target didn't bother to back up out of range in the full time it took those missiles to travel "1000+m".

I do believe some of that story to be slightly... exaggerated...?

[Dogstar]

Acersecomic, on 15 March 2019 - 03:20 AM, said:

Guess which one can shoot you behind most cover with no way to retaliate and sometimes put you out of the fight before you even get to reach any cover, if the map provides cover in the first place.
Would be funny if it was gauss because then I could say "gauss which one" bwahaha

If you're getting hit by LRMs when you're behind cover then the problem is not LRMs, it's that you're a crappy pilot and crappy pilots are always the first to run screaming to the forums for nerfs.

[Pixel Hunter]

Tesunie, on 15 March 2019 - 07:08 AM, said:

Did you also miss the range? 1000+m, which would mean every LRM launcher took max range skills, and the target didn't bother to back up out of range in the full time it took those missiles to travel "1000+m".

I do believe some of that story to be slightly... exaggerated...?

it was close to a click I'm sure at least 800m...and yeah I had no time to get to cover, the highlander isn't exactly fast and there wasn't anything tall enough at that area to hide behind when crossing that middle valley. I was trying to get into the domination point in the center, and was hoping the team would follow and armor share. they didn't

and the 30 seconds is an estimate, all I know is it was not enough time to get to cover before I got popped, I'm not sure If I got hit by a gauss or PPC because there was so much incoming I couldn't tell.

Edited by Pixel Hunter, 15 March 2019 - 08:03 AM.

[K O Z A K]

Dogstar, on 15 March 2019 - 07:21 AM, said:

If you're getting hit by LRMs when you're behind cover then the problem is not LRMs, it's that you're a crappy pilot and crappy pilots are always the first to run screaming to the forums for nerfs.

....no, the problem is still LRMs as they shoot over things. And you really shouldn't talk about crappy pilots

[YueFei]

Hazeclaw, on 15 March 2019 - 08:08 AM, said:

....no, the problem is still LRMs as they shoot over things. And you really shouldn't talk about crappy pilots

LRMs shooting over things isn't a problem. No more so than grenades going around corners or over walls is a problem in other FPS. Spectators get super hyped over amazing grenade/smoke/flashbang throws in CS:GO, and that's a form of "indirect fire". Thing is, those are still manually aimed.

The problem with LRMs is the free target info sharing and the guided LRM shots off of that target sharing. This makes it much easier to focus-fire onto a single target without needing to meet the stricter positional requirements you'd need for focus-firing with direct-fire weapons. At lower skill levels, especially, this makes LRMs king for focus-firing, more so than any other weapon.

A total re-work of LRM mechanics is what's needed, to avoid having it be so dominant at lower skill levels, and also to raise its skill ceiling to make it viable at the highest skill levels. But, since it's PGI, that probably won't happen.

[Tesunie]

Pixel Hunter, on 15 March 2019 - 07:54 AM, said:

it was close to a click I'm sure at least 800m...and yeah I had no time to get to cover, the highlander isn't exactly fast and there wasn't anything tall enough at that area to hide behind when crossing that middle valley. I was trying to get into the domination point in the center, and was hoping the team would follow and armor share. they didn't

and the 30 seconds is an estimate, all I know is it was not enough time to get to cover before I got popped, I'm not sure If I got hit by a gauss or PPC because there was so much incoming I couldn't tell.

Frozen city, correct? Which path did you choose to take? The D line is shortest, but has sparse cover until you get to the other side. One grid of vulnerability (D4 if I recall correctly) and also as a very predictable entrance back into the buildings.

E5 passage would be coverless, and not a reliable position to cross. The bridge does have a gully in E6 that can provide cover, if you can get there. However, it might also be easy to get trapped there as it only has two escape routes.

The F line has reasonable cover all along the path. It's probably one of the best spots to push across for it's cover, ability to break LoS as well as has tall enough obstructions to block incoming missiles almost the entire path over. The short gap in cover before entering into the upper city (either side) should be crossable by even assault mechs, especially if lights and mediums are just ahead sewing some chaos to grant time for the crossing.

G line crossing has some bridge pieces that can be used as cover. These are tall enough to block missiles, as well as has a section you can go under the bridge for additional protection. From there you can either go straight into the city (no cover), or go around to H6 for some blocking LoS walls and come up into the city for a F7 takeover. Not the "safest", but it's doable if you are going from the crashed dropship to the other side.


I'd also have to ask, how close where you to your teammates? How many of them (including yourself) had AMS? More than a single AMS on a single mech (dual AMS, triple AMS or the rare quad AMS mech)? Anyone with ECM (a bit more restrictive to chassis)? Where did you end up crossing to have no cover? Did you have JJ? Did you use said JJs to try and shift some of the missile damage onto your legs to prolong your survival (and this, the enemy having to spend more time on you to purchase more time for your team to survive the crossing themselves)? Radar Deprivation?

I will remark that LRMs are most effective the close to minimum range they are, and become less reliable the farther out they are. For best blend between reliability and range, about 600m is where their reliability starts to become more questionable. I've also seen too many people shoot LRMs at targets outside 1000m range... which is a "makes a lot of noise but does nothing else".

[Tesunie]

Hazeclaw, on 15 March 2019 - 08:08 AM, said:

....no, the problem is still LRMs as they shoot over things. And you really shouldn't talk about crappy pilots

I don't think LRM indirect capabilities is the issue. I think that most cases involve poor positioning (which can happen to anyone), lack of counter gear taken (it is the only weapon with real gear that counters it's abilities in any manner), and people being frustrated that "I can't shoot them back, that's not fair". It's frustrating to take damage from someone that you can't shoot back (or sometimes even see). I get that frustration. It's just as frustrating to be in a short range build, when a sniper has a long walking path on lockdown. You suddenly find yourself down half your mech and you haven't even made a shot (sometimes).

LRMs are just the easiest weapon system to produce this frustration in players, so it's the easiest one to point fingers at. The skill set involved in LRMs often are also looked down upon, as many people consider refinement in those specific skills to be a waste and call anyone who uses LRMs "skill-less".

I know I've said before that using LRMs in an indirect only fashion is one of the worst ways to use them. It's actually often less effective for your team as a whole, even if you get good damage scores, etc from using indirect only. Then again, I seem to be an odd duck with how I use my LRMs, and many people have commented that they rarely if ever have seen anyone else use them as I do.


I don't believe people are "crappy pilots*". They most likely made a mistake, and they had to pay the price for it that match. I'm a reasonable pilot, but I make mistakes, often, in my game play. Things I "know" I should not keep doing (going off on my own, seeing a mech almost dead and tunnel visioning on it, etc), and other times I do things I know will get me killed but grant my team the best chance to survive and win (see a squad of enemy mechs going down a path, I heckle them so they have to slow down and deal with me. I know I'm going to die, but I'm stalling 4-6 mechs on my own for some time, trying to buy my team time to reposition to deal with this incoming threat or to focus on the other half of the enemy team to grant them better odds).

*I believe people can improve, and that even good pilots may have trouble with certain aspects of the game. Maybe someone is a sure shot sharp shooter, but have issues with positioning. Another may be great at strategy, but have poor awareness skills (AKA: "If we go here, we have a better chance of winning" *Failed to see the light mech sneaking around behind him*). Etc.

[K O Z A K]

Idirect capabilites and locking missiles are both part of the same problem. Sure you can turn lrms into grenades I guess (I would say arty/strikes are more the MWO equivalent of grenades). But ultimately as long as you can have mechs that dump stupid dps, have ridiculous ammo counts, and multiple LRM mechs can shoot one opponent without ever having a LOS, it will be the most rage inducing, broken, impossible to balance thing in the game. I mean you can literally engage every mech on the enemy team without ever taking a single step. Unlike other weapons LRMs have a ridiculous ability to stack damage from multiple boats and an entire firing line of LRM boats basically only needs to expose 1 light to fire, this mechanic makes balancing them an ever stupid task of not making solo lrm boats useless, but at the same time not making multiple lrm boats broken AF. The only way this balancing act can be even remotely possible, is to remove the IDF ability completely (or maybe allow only 1 LRM mech to shoot 1 target at a time?), but that's not going to happen, because I guess it's an integral part of the franchise, and a lot of players enjoy the broken playstyle. I mean occasionally I will drop a LRM boat so I can eat while playing, it's very relaxing as it requires about 1/5th of player input to basically max out the mechs capability, but we all have to accept while you're just chilling in your LRM assault dumping out thousand(s) of damage with a smiling troll face, there are people on the other side yelling into their microphone "f this game"

[Tesunie]

Hazeclaw, on 15 March 2019 - 09:14 AM, said:

But ultimately as long as you can have mechs that dump stupid dps, have ridiculous ammo counts...

What about those high alpha mechs that can one shot a medium mech to death? Aren't those fun to also fight against? Round a corner, see an opponent, lay down dead on the ground with not even a full alpha of damage to your name...

LRMs aren't the only "frustrating" mech build around. The ever faster moving meta to the best min/maxed builds get ever stronger. (Not that I blame people for trying to min/max and get the most out of their mechs.) There are always those who try to break the game systems they use, rather just to see if it's possible (hex PPC Stalker anyone?) or for maximum performance in a role (Piranha?).

I still feel a lot of the issues with LRMs lay in the fact that many people don't even bother with AMS. AMS is highly effective against a single LRM mech, but nearly useless (despite shooting down hundreds of potential damage) against mass fired LRMs. That is why I propose that AMS takes a percentage of missiles from each volley, no matter how many missiles are coming in. Each AMS adds to the percentage in a declining rate (AKA: after so many AMS together, it won't have any additional effects). This lets both single and mass LRMs to be able to function, without one nor the other being supper effective. Massed LRMs will still hurt, but not as much as it is now. Meanwhile, single launchers aren't rendered useless.

Of course, that's only a portion of the problem/concept, but it might be a point that helps overall game play. (And then, no one would still take AMS and still probably complain about LRMs.)

This game has always had a problem with boats. Anything boated enough hurts. Boats maximize their efficiency in a specific role/range/ability, to the point that nothing else can compete in that territory besides another boat. (I actually like my builds with a little mix. If I see a specialist and I can, I engage in a manner that they can't even fight against.) If anything, the problem once more lays on boating, rather than a specific weapon system.

[Kubernetes]

Dogstar, on 15 March 2019 - 02:55 AM, said:

It would be interesting to see what would happen if betty bitched about _all_ weapon types - I'm sure there would be calls for nerfs to everything

Betty: 'Incoming missiles'
Betty: 'Lasers! Pew! Pew!'
Betty: 'That was a gauss hit *******'
Betty: 'Can you not see the other mech with the autocannons?'
Betty: 'Oh look, a Piranha, you're $%^&ed now'

Betty: 'That's heavy gauss, you dumbs**t. Run, mfer, run! "

[Mystere]

Tesunie, on 15 March 2019 - 07:08 AM, said:

I do believe some of that story to be slightly... exaggerated...?

Slightly?

Did your forget this is the MWO forums!

[K O Z A K]

Tesunie, on 15 March 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

What about those high alpha mechs that can one shot a medium mech to death? Aren't those fun to also fight against? Round a corner, see an opponent, lay down dead on the ground with not even a full alpha of damage to your name...

I'm struggling to remember a situation where I've seen any mech one shot a fresh medium, I mean it's probably hypothetically possible with a slow std assault turret with dual hgauss and medium lasers shooting an IS XL medium in back side torso? But that's quite a stretch. Overall yes, direct fire are fun to fight against, because you can shoot back at them, and it's significantly less likely to be shot by multiple direct fire mechs at the same time

making ams stronger is a good thing, but it will still get overwhelmed by massive volleys, and you'll run out of ammo very fast

[Tesunie]

Hazeclaw, on 15 March 2019 - 12:28 PM, said:

I'm struggling to remember a situation where I've seen any mech one shot a fresh medium, I mean it's probably hypothetically possible with a slow std assault turret with dual hgauss and medium lasers shooting an IS XL medium in back side torso? But that's quite a stretch. Overall yes, direct fire are fun to fight against, because you can shoot back at them, and it's significantly less likely to be shot by multiple direct fire mechs at the same time making ams stronger is a good thing, but it will still get overwhelmed by massive volleys, and you'll run out of ammo very fast

I've actually somehow managed to, facing only a single assault, get one shot in my Riflemen. Right through the CT. I'm guessing critical damage happened and it barely managed to kill me, but I've had it happen. Didn't even get the plate number of that car... (AKA: No idea what build they where running.)

I have also been one shot KOed in my Annihilator. A dual H. Gauss mech got behind me, shot me once, and then BOOM. My ammo critted and I was gone. But that was ammo explosion, and not a super high alpha necessarily doing it.


As on note of AMS, I'm talking about it shooting down a percentage of each volley of incoming missiles, rather than what we have now. It might not make much physical sense (maybe the exploding missiles explode other missiles) but it would balance the power of a single mech and a whole team of mechs with missiles. A single missile/LRM mech could still always land some damage (because that percentage should never reach 100%), meanwhile a "massive hoard of missiles" wont overwhelm it and it's still going to reduce the hoard of missiles damage by said percent. Yes, missiles will still get though, but it will do more work against the sun blight (large number of missiles) than current AMS. (And no, I'm not toting this idea as "the best idea", it's just a thought I had when someone here was complaining that AMS doesn't do enough against massive waves of LRMs.)

It could be tuned so it's ammo gets drained either by second in use, or for each volley it intercepts (but then it would drain out very quickly). It's percentage of missiles shot down could also be adjusted per missile type. SRMs should be more likely to bypass, as it currently does, so AMS percentage would be lower for them. Meanwhile, ATMs would still be hit heavily no matter what the percentage really is... (but, ATMs would get a bit of a boost, because a single missile would always get through, rather than the current possible no missiles getting through.) Would place AMS more soundly as a soft counter to missiles, rather than the "sometimes hard counter, sometimes soft, sometimes almost seems like no counter" it's currently seems to be at.

[K O Z A K]

You were probably headshot by dual heavy gauss, I've had that happen a few times, your fresh mech just drops, it's fairly rare

[Weeny Machine]

Dogstar, on 15 March 2019 - 07:21 AM, said:

If you're getting hit by LRMs when you're behind cover then the problem is not LRMs, it's that you're a crappy pilot and crappy pilots are always the first to run screaming to the forums for nerfs.

As I said before, that's not the problem. Being able to assist a mech which is in trouble half a map away with obstacles and all between forces static gameplay. Lights have to disengage, flankers as well. Smart movement should be rewarded but this mechanic punishes it. Inherent C3 computer for the win

[Tesunie]

Hazeclaw, on 15 March 2019 - 03:57 PM, said:

You were probably headshot by dual heavy gauss, I've had that happen a few times, your fresh mech just drops, it's fairly rare

No. My head component was fully healthy. My CT was destroyed and death was by engine destruction (AKA: CT destruction). Best guess several forum posters and myself could come up with was I got hit by a build that dealt damage past the armor, and then got max crit to deal extra damage to the structure, resulting in my destruction. It only happened the once...

[Kynesis]

The point of the changes is to get missile builds more involved in matches and give them options other than standing around as turrets.

[thievingmagpi]

AIMING OP TIME TO BUFF THE JOYSTICK BUILDS