16 replies to this topic

[FRAGTAST1C]

As the title says, which would you pick? I'm asking based on all types of styles across all modes. Obviously, burst damage should also be viable and not result in large heat build up where you can't fire again after your weapons are ready.

To start off, take the Kraken with 2x MRM 30s and an AC20. That's 80 burst damage and is quite sustainable in a brawl. Similarly, Siren running with UAC20 + MRM 30 + 4 MPL is viable when skilled right. We can also talk about the Griffin 2N with its SRMs and so.

I prefer burst damage over DPS. What's your cup of tea?

[VulcanXIV]

In my case as a Phoenix Hawk, I don't have the armor to brawl even most mediums. As a low-tonnage skirmisher with great acceleration and JJ, it's kind of natural to build the highest alpha dumper possible and spend most of the game hiding behind a rock for the neck peek-a-boo

[The pessimistic optimist]

For brawling I go for DPS almost every time but alpha poker are fun to just need team support if yea get pushed.

[El Bandito]

Gotta have sustain in a brawl.

[ShiverMeRivets]

VulcanXIV, on 06 March 2019 - 06:48 AM, said:

In my case as a Phoenix Hawk, I don't have the armor to brawl even most mediums. As a low-tonnage skirmisher with great acceleration and JJ, it's kind of natural to build the highest alpha dumper possible and spend most of the game hiding behind a rock for the neck peek-a-boo

My Pheonix Hawk 2 is quite durable. Spreads damage quite well with its high agility and agressive use of the jumpjets. It has the arms of a 70 tonner, but weak ST, so you have to shield some damage with the arms inspite of them being the location of your weapons.

To the OP, burst damage wins over DPS, unless the latter is completely over the top. Burst buffs your defense and makes your offense count for more. The enemy needs several times your damage output if you can givem him your arms as shields or spread the damage between multiple components, while you are on cooldown. When you burst, you aim everything into one component of your choosing - even if it means holding your shot until the enemy’s component is presented.

DPS is most valuable when the enemy is not shooting back at you and you do not need to twist - i.e, you act as fire support to someone else who tanks the damage.

[panzer1b]

Based on my experience the current QP meta involves sustaineable burst loadouts. With the exception of higher level play where single exposure poke dominates (when used in a team setting though with focused fire) or a select number of paper mechs that have to single poke and any exposure is suicidal.

For assaults ive found the strongest setup to be uac spam with enough alfa strike on a doubletap to do 50+ damage (since any less makes it impossible to effectively poke in situations where you are unable to safely sustain combat). Heavys and mediums have a bit more variety and laser vomit becomes seriously competitive since you cannot have a heavy spit out over 50 damage using just dakka setup with any consistency, but energy or gauss puke can let them do over 60 (with a handful of exceptions like the night gyr which may as well be a assault mech with its dakka setup).

So yeah, burst is essential for any build, but if you want to contribute in the mid game which tends to devolve into brawl/sustain combat its a very smart idea to at least have some sustained DPS behind your build even if its not 100% your focus to sustain a fight.

[Angel of Annihilation]

ShiverMeRivets, on 06 March 2019 - 11:17 AM, said:

My Pheonix Hawk 2 is quite durable. Spreads damage quite well with its high agility and agressive use of the jumpjets. It has the arms of a 70 tonner, but weak ST, so you have to shield some damage with the arms inspite of them being the location of your weapons.

To the OP, burst damage wins over DPS, unless the latter is completely over the top. Burst buffs your defense and makes your offense count for more. The enemy needs several times your damage output if you can givem him your arms as shields or spread the damage between multiple components, while you are on cooldown. When you burst, you aim everything into one component of your choosing - even if it means holding your shot until the enemy’s component is presented.

DPS is most valuable when the enemy is not shooting back at you and you do not need to twist - i.e, you act as fire support to someone else who tanks the damage.

I have to agree on the PHX-2. I love that mech and with proper piloting it spread damage like no ones business.

As far as the Burst vs DPS debate, I am not sure one is really better than the other to be honest at least not in the grand scheme of things. First of all your points are all 100% spot on and valid in regards to the benefits of burst over DPS but I thing people really underrate how much being able to place continuous fire down range at the enemy really contributes to your damage output and your chances at victory.

Consider that DPS or Sustain however you want to term it means that each time the enemy presents you a target your ready to fire. It also means the second you see a vulnerability, you have the ability to take advantage of that vulnerability. For example, often times on my burst builds I find myself seeing lots of opportunities to damage or kill enemy mechs but I can't fire or at least can't fire more than a token few weapons because I am too hot when that opportunity presents itself. Also with burst, there is generally always a 3-4 second pause between your shots which the enemy can take advantage of, either to engage you or escape from you. With a sustain build, you can keep up the pressure, keep them defensive and exploit that situation to your advantage. Also as you mentioned, DPS is best when your supporting and there will always be times where you will be in that position in virtually every mechs where you can take advantage of this.

So as I mentioned above, I really don't see one really being better than the other, rather they are both situational useful, having their own sets of advantages and disadvantages. Which build philosophy you use really should depend on what your comfortable with or which situations you find yourself most often in. Finally I would say that you should also consider what mech your using. For example, I find that sustain builds work best on more tanky and agile mechs that can take a bit more punishment or avoid fire more easy where as more fragile mechs tend to do better with burst so they can poke and hide or fire and twist to protect a vulnerable CT.

[LordNothing]

people like to put uacs on brawlers. people use phrases like "free double damage" but its really more like 1.2x, maybe 1.3x with the right quirks and its not entirely free, it costs heat. the jams balance out better with multiple guns so you can sustain the damage. this is where they start becoming brawl worthy, but then the heat starts becoming a problem. lbs and acs go a lot longer and boat better without cooking you alive.

burst damage is more for ranged trading.

Edited by LordNothing, 06 March 2019 - 07:43 PM.

[Khobai]

burst > dps

burst damage is better because you can maximize your damage while minimizing your exposure. And its easier for teams to focus enemy mechs down with burst damage because the damage is more concentrated.

the problem with dps weapons in MWO is they tend to have stupidly debilitating weaknesses. Like super short range, jamming randomly, or requiring a lot of facetime. Or theyre just plain bad like the UAC20. As a result DPS tends to only be good when the enemy isnt shooting back at you or its a small scale fight like 1v1 where you substantially out-DPS the enemy mech. I feel dps weapons in general, especially the short range ones, could use a buff. Short range combat should be absolutely devastating in MWO and it just isnt...

Edited by Khobai, 06 March 2019 - 08:08 PM.

[Redshirt4Life]

Well, piranhas are dps, so there is at least some merit to it. I run two mechs who have a hybrid dps/alpha and its probably my favorite combo.

I run my stormcrow with 10 microlasers and 2 large pulse lasers. Early game I poke at the enemy at a distance with the large pulse lasers. Soften them up, open up new angles of attack. But by mid game I'm looking to flank and take out isolated targets with the micros at stabbing range.

And in the cicada 3m I have 4 er medium lasers and the UAC 5. Poking with a couple UAC shots and the lasers is good harrassment. Jamming isn't a big problem in a fast mech, but its very welcome to really punish the enemy when they are distracted. The rapid-fire weapon tends to make the enemy panic. They tend to scurry to cover, but It's often nowhere in sight.

[FupDup]

I usually like "sustainable burst" like MRMs or making laser vomit with slightly lower alpha but more DHS.

RACs are bae tho.

[VulcanXIV]

FupDup, on 06 March 2019 - 08:30 PM, said:

I usually like "sustainable burst" like MRMs or making laser vomit with slightly lower alpha but more DHS.

RACs are bae tho.

RACs really are great. They're the pinnacle of dps pretty much but because they cause so much debilitating aggro, I find it incredibly easy to get focused down if the enemy approaches as a firing line and your team isn't capable of responding as a counter-distraction.

Edited by VulcanXIV, 07 March 2019 - 05:27 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

ShiverMeRivets, on 06 March 2019 - 11:17 AM, said:

My Pheonix Hawk 2 is quite durable. Spreads damage quite well with its high agility and agressive use of the jumpjets. It has the arms of a 70 tonner, but weak ST, so you have to shield some damage with the arms inspite of them being the location of your weapons.

To the OP, burst damage wins over DPS, unless the latter is completely over the top. Burst buffs your defense and makes your offense count for more. The enemy needs several times your damage output if you can givem him your arms as shields or spread the damage between multiple components, while you are on cooldown. When you burst, you aim everything into one component of your choosing - even if it means holding your shot until the enemy’s component is presented.

DPS is most valuable when the enemy is not shooting back at you and you do not need to twist - i.e, you act as fire support to someone else who tanks the damage.

Why I love this DPS build you can twist and fire with low face time.
PROTECTOR

Edited by SirSmokes, 07 March 2019 - 05:54 AM.

[Daggett]

FRAGTAST1C, on 06 March 2019 - 06:44 AM, said:

I prefer burst damage over DPS. What's your cup of tea?

In my opinion it depends a lot on the environment and skill of your opponents.

For instance in a comp environment with highly skilled players burst should be better. But when pugging in QP, it really does not matter what you field if your positioning is solid. You can always get great flanking opportunities and your average T1 opponent is simply not good enough to punish facetime builds like the triple RAC2 Bushwacker.

For instance even in T1 NO ONE except the occasional top player on the enemy team ever aims at the Bushwackers achilles heel (the legs). That's a main reason why facetime DPS builds work great in such tanky mechs.

Edited by Daggett, 07 March 2019 - 06:03 AM.

[Relishcakes]

I'm still a little sad i cant run 2HLL, 4HML on my cougar. it used to shreck even the toughest of targets....when i could get in range.


RIP LazerFace. you will be missed.

[LordNothing]

i dont really consider uacs to be true burst weapons. if they were then weapons like the uac20 wouldnt be bad. you cant really use it outside of brawling range and inside its unreliable. you are better off with an ac20. it runs cooler wont jam and can sustain output if need be, its also burst damage due to its long cd and high output so its great for torso twisting. you could make the argument that with the ultra20 you can double tap when hill humping and single in a brawl, but the range limits come into play and greatly limit hill humping opportunities, you end up using it beyond its optimal range and loose whatever benefits you get from double tapping. in addition to that massed uac 2s and 5s turn into dps weapons because the guns stagger their jams such that you can maintain damage output.


i really think the uacs (and to a lesser degree acs) need a mechanics pass (like the ones that lerms got in the pts). mostly tp better define what burst dps means.

acs and cacs trade their single shell damage for higher fire rates. dps would remain constant though. burst fire also goes away but clans simply prefer lower calibur with higher rates of fire, so less damage per shot and more shots.

ac20 - 6.67 damage, 1.33s cd
ac10 - 5 damage, 1.125s cd
ac5 - 3.5 damage, 0.86s cd
ac2 - 2 damage, 0.72s cd (unchanged)

cac20 - 5 damage, 1s cd
cac10 - 4 damage, 1.11s cd
cac5 - 3.2 damage, 0.95 cd
cac2 - 1.8 damage, 0.6s cd

this puts the ac back into the sustainable dps niche its supposed to occupy. now to put uacs back into the burst fire niche. salvo size (or the clip) is increased and double tap goes away in favor of hold to fire. you can fire part or all of a burst until the clip is clear, the weapon jams or the trigger is released (whatever happens first). if you unload the whole clip without a jam you need to wait one cd cycle to reload, if you only fire a partial burst, you only have to reload rounds you fired so the cd is cooldown * (r/c) where r is the rounds fired and c is the size of the clip. the little heat bar displays the current clip capacity, it starts full and ticks down as rounds are fired, and then reloads durring cd, this also gives you an idea of how likely you are to jam. if the weapon jams, then you have to clear the clip by ejecting the rounds (you loose them) and reload. this takes about cooldown * 1.5 to be able to fire again.

the clips for the 10 and 20 have capacity for ammo totalling 2x the rated damage and keep their base cd values where they are now. to prevent the 2s and 5s from turning into dps weapons, they get higher damage bursts, 3x, and 2.5x of their rated damage respectively, this also comes with an appropriate nerf to cd (50% and 25% respectively).

uac20 - 5 round clip, 8 damage/round, 4s cd
uac10 - 4 round clip, 5 damage/round, 2.5s cd
uac5 - 3 round clip, 4.17 damage/round 2.08s cd
uac2 - 2 round clip, 3 damage/round 1.08s cd

cuac20 - 6 round clip, 6.67 damage/round, 4s cd
cuac10 - 5 round clip, 4 damage/round, 2.5s cd
cuac5 - 4 round clip, 3.125 damage/round 2.08s cd
cuac2 - 3 round clip, 2 damage/round 1.08s cd

to make up for lackluster performance, especially at the big end of the spectrum, the overall likelihood of a jam is reduced a lot. the additional disadvantage of loosing ammo to a jam means that the jam itself can be somewhat less likely. you will need to pack additional ammo to make up for it. jam chance follows a j curve with the zero point lined up to the middle of the salvo, ramping up slow at first and then severely towards the end of the burst.

since jams are rolled every round the chance needs to come down a lot. unfortunately my stat math is weak and i dont know how to go about computing the values for that, i know its nonlinear and thats about it. take the cuac20 for example, which currently runs a 16% jam chance. only the last 3 rounds would be jam rolled. i want to say that these would be maybe 2%, 5% and 9% totalling up to a 16% chance, but stats dont work like that. it would also be a little less equivalent jam chance. needless to say firing 5 rounds is a lot less likely to jam than 6 and so the mechanic will reward good trigger discipline.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 March 2019 - 05:54 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Relishcakes, on 07 March 2019 - 10:33 AM, said:

I'm still a little sad i cant run 2HLL, 4HML on my cougar. it used to shreck even the toughest of targets....when i could get in range.


RIP LazerFace. you will be missed.

I feel your pain. One of my favorite mechs is the Executioner but it is a very hard mech to build with a good combination of effective firepower while retaining any sort of good heat management due to PGI's linking of medium and small weapons together in terms of Ghost Heat. Prior to the heat scale change, I had finally found the absolute perfect build for my Executioner but it was right on the razor's edge in terms of its ability to handle the heat it generated. After the heat scale change its heat management score went form a toasty, but manageable 1.28 down to a roasting 1.08 and it just because impossible to keep the heat under control. RIP my favorite mech. I have a modified build on it now that is OK but even with the just OK modified build I am only at like a 1.18 heat management score which still isn't quite good enough.

Honestly wish PGI would just knock of the major, game changing, balance passes already.