22 replies to this topic

[Starquestman]

Mad Cat is the name the IS gave the Timberwolf, and I thought I read somewhere that the MKII was the IS modification or something. So it's Inner Sphere...

But in the Mechlab, it shows up as a Clan mech. It's on my clan mech drop deck as we speak. So it's clan??

But if it's clan, how come I don't have omni pods available to swap between my two variants??

[Bulletsponge0]

Clan battlemech... no omnipods...

Edited by Bulletsponge0, 09 March 2019 - 06:04 PM.

[Atlai]

It is actually a clan mech. I don't remember why it is called the Mad Cat II and not the Timberwolf II, but I think there is some lore reason behind it. But rest assured, definitely a clan.

Also, while a lot of clan mechs are omnimechs, meaning you can change the hardpoint sections, there are some clan mechs that are still traditional battlemechs with fixed hardpoints. Keep in mind that this actually lets you change the engine rating and other things like ferro and endo. The Mad Cat II is one of those battlemechs, others are like the Kodiac and Hunchback IIC.

[Starquestman]

Thanks for the responses!

I guess I should have noticed that BEFORE I dropped 7 million c bills on a second variant. Is this a lore thing, keeping true to some obscure detail in the MW universe, or just a gameplay balance thing?

In unrelated news, anyone have good luck with the MCII-B?

[SlippnGriff]

its clan
If you're looking to buy one i recommend the MKII-B,
https://mech.nav-alp...47c3de61_MCII-B
A89D4:a1|8f|l^|l^|l^|LG|RRp91|l^|l^q91|l^rl0|eB|fB|RR|QRsl0|eB|fB|RR|QRt21|QR|RRu21|QR|RRvA0|RRw303030

Replace heat sinks with ammo if you are running out.

[Starquestman]

I had just purchased that one! Running the Ultra 20s and a few heavy machine guns. Will test it out tomorrow!

[Bombast]

In lore, the Mad Cak Mk II was named as such so it could be sold to the Inner Sphere.

Meta wise, there's been some accusations that the naming was part of a 'dumbing down,' where Clan names were supposed to be erased to keep things cleaner for the non-lore focused player. Pretty sure that's just a conspiracy theory though.

As others have said, the Mad Cat Mk II is a battlemech, which is why it doesn't have omnipods. Not all clan mechs are omnimechs.

Edited by Bombast, 09 March 2019 - 06:55 PM.

[Dryderian]

A nice video about the Mad Cat:

[RickySpanish]

The B is a good variant, it's often run with 2 UAC 5 and 2 UAC 10. Double UAC 20 has heat issues and that 20 points of damage is fired over four rounds, so it's hard to hit the same location with it.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Basically, Diamond Shark is really good at marketing. Like, really good. They could sell you your own fingernail clippings if you weren't careful.

[Lances107]

So the Mark II was a attempt by a clan to make money by selling it to clan wolf and Jade falcon. The problem is it did not sell, however the Inner sphere bought many Mad cat Mark IIs. Some found there way into clan Jade falcon through trial. It was not a major splash in the clans like the Timber wolf, which surpassed on heavy designs.

You can find this lore by searching google. Keep in mind op. MWO is a active combat game, that means, though the lore states the power of the timber wolf. This is not so in game. Its been nerfed multiple times since its launch, and it has very bad side torso hit boxes. Even with the attempt by the devs to limit this. With clan XL engines in MWO, if you destroy both side torsos, it will destroy the clan mech. In MWO unlike the lore the Mark II-B is considered to be one of the top assaults in the game.

Now me I love the lore behind these mechs, especially clan mechs, but it does not translate into game most of the time. Hope this helps. Final note, I am a clan loyalist through and through. Even I thought the IS should have access to a IS tech version of the Mark II because of lore.

[Koniving]

Starquestman, on 09 March 2019 - 06:14 PM, said:

Thanks for the responses!

I guess I should have noticed that BEFORE I dropped 7 million c bills on a second variant. Is this a lore thing, keeping true to some obscure detail in the MW universe, or just a gameplay balance thing?

Lore reason behind the name.
It rolls off the tongue faster and the Clanners like the name better than their own.

....I'm not kidding. That's the reason.

Its just a Clan mech.
The closest IS version is....
Marauder II (not to be confused with Marauder IIC)

Now of the base Timber Wolf, the inherent closest similarity is a combination of the Catapult and the Marauder...
Marauder...Catapult....MAD...CAT....MAD...CAT....MADCAT!

But given the current in universe year we're at...we should see the IS clone of the Mad Cat(Timber Wolf).
So PGI: where's my Rakshasha?

Also PGI, when building the Rakshasha, I think it'll look better if similar to the fluff, you start with the MWO Catapult, splice a bit of MWO Marauder, and fill out the rest from there.

Edited by Koniving, 09 March 2019 - 11:54 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Koniving, on 09 March 2019 - 11:50 PM, said:

Lore reason behind the name.
It rolls off the tongue faster and the Clanners like the name better than their own.

....I'm not kidding. That's the reason.

Its just a Clan mech.
The closest IS version is....
Marauder II (not to be confused with Marauder IIC)

Now of the base Timber Wolf, the inherent closest similarity is a combination of the Catapult and the Marauder...
Marauder...Catapult....MAD...CAT....MAD...CAT....MADCAT!

But given the current in universe year we're at...we should see the IS clone of the Mad Cat(Timber Wolf).
So PGI: where's my Rakshasha?

Also PGI, when building the Rakshasha, I think it'll look better if similar to the fluff, you start with the MWO Catapult, splice a bit of MWO Marauder, and fill out the rest from there.

Credit to Alex Iglesias. MWO's mech artist.

Edited by MechaBattler, 10 March 2019 - 12:45 AM.

[Lykaon]

SlippnGriff, on 09 March 2019 - 06:16 PM, said:

its clan
If you're looking to buy one i recommend the MKII-B,
https://mech.nav-alp...47c3de61_MCII-B
A89D4:a1|8f|l^|l^|l^|LG|RRp91|l^|l^q91|l^rl0|eB|fB|RR|QRsl0|eB|fB|RR|QRt21|QR|RRu21|QR|RRvA0|RRw303030

Replace heat sinks with ammo if you are running out.

No joke I second this...

I bought one yesterday because it was on sale and loaded it up and put a few skill points on it (offense tree UAC jam and LBX spread as well mag cap)

My loadout was if I recall...

Endo and Ferro
325 XL w/ 13 DHS
Max armor (with 1 point shaved from each leg and 1 off the head)
2 x UAC10 w/ 2 tons ammo per gun
2 X LB10X w/ 2 tons ammo per gun
2 flamers

First and only match I played with it last night I completed the 500 match score and assault mech damage quota for the weekly challange. Ended up with 600+ match score and nearly 1400 damage.

It's assault mech easy mode!

[Angel of Annihilation]

Lances107, on 09 March 2019 - 11:35 PM, said:

So the Mark II was a attempt by a clan to make money by selling it to clan wolf and Jade falcon. The problem is it did not sell, however the Inner sphere bought many Mad cat Mark IIs. Some found there way into clan Jade falcon through trial. It was not a major splash in the clans like the Timber wolf, which surpassed on heavy designs.

You can find this lore by searching google. Keep in mind op. MWO is a active combat game, that means, though the lore states the power of the timber wolf. This is not so in game. Its been nerfed multiple times since its launch, and it has very bad side torso hit boxes. Even with the attempt by the devs to limit this. With clan XL engines in MWO, if you destroy both side torsos, it will destroy the clan mech. In MWO unlike the lore the Mark II-B is considered to be one of the top assaults in the game.

Now me I love the lore behind these mechs, especially clan mechs, but it does not translate into game most of the time. Hope this helps. Final note, I am a clan loyalist through and through. Even I thought the IS should have access to a IS tech version of the Mark II because of lore.

The poor Timberwolf is so underrated anymore and I just don't understand why. I still easily pull 400-500 damage per match out of mine. Honestly, if you want the truth, I don't really think there is a better all purpose heavy in the game than the Timberwolf. It can be built pretty much any way you want it, to do about anything you would want it to do. It is also exceptionally fast for a heavy mech. Finally the hitboxes really aren't all that bad, I would even rate them as above average, at least if you avoid the missile ears but that is a "feature" of the Madcat Mk II as well. Heck if you want to get down to it, the Madcat MkII honestly has near identical hitboxes to the Timberwolf and it is regarded as a exceptional mech. It's only problem in MWO is that there are just so many "Specialist" mechs that do their specialty better than the Timberwolf, that it has kind of become obsolete. However, I would still rate it a solid 7-8 out of 10 on the power curve.

With that being said, from a lore perspective and if Battletech/Mechwarrior were real, the well rounded, general purpose capability of the Timberwolf, would have made it an exceptional battlefield mech. More armor than many assaults (per the TROs), faster than many mediums, plenty of firepower and the versatility to do just about anything a commander or pilot would need a mech to do, would have placed the Timberwolf at the Apex, without a doubt. With that in mind, I think strictly speaking from a lore perspective and considering real battlefield conditions where operational flexibility would be perhaps one of the most important factors to winning a battle, the Timberwolf's lore based reputation is likely well deserved.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Koniving, on 09 March 2019 - 11:50 PM, said:

Lore reason behind the name.
It rolls off the tongue faster and the Clanners like the name better than their own.

....I'm not kidding. That's the reason.

Its just a Clan mech.
The closest IS version is....
Marauder II (not to be confused with Marauder IIC)

Now of the base Timber Wolf, the inherent closest similarity is a combination of the Catapult and the Marauder...
Marauder...Catapult....MAD...CAT....MAD...CAT....MADCAT!

But given the current in universe year we're at...we should see the IS clone of the Mad Cat(Timber Wolf).
So PGI: where's my Rakshasha?

Also PGI, when building the Rakshasha, I think it'll look better if similar to the fluff, you start with the MWO Catapult, splice a bit of MWO Marauder, and fill out the rest from there.

They have avoided IS Omnis because they are going to be pure rubbish for the most part. People just don't seem to realize or remember all the crazy restrictions and limitations PGI imposed on Clan Omnimechs in an attempt to balance them. The vast, vast majority of Clan Omnimechs are un-optimized as hell. Some have extra DHS slots in the engine that are left unfilled. The structure and armor are fixed, often technically leaving you with what should be plenty of slots to add a few more DHS or some other piece of equipment but due to the fixed nature, put those slots in places they can't be used. Those fixed armor and structure slots often restrict you from being able to mount specific weapons and equipment. Then there is the fixed structure and armor type which often time sticks you with the weight inefficient FF instead of the weight efficient Endo or leaves you with standard structure when the 2-3 tons you would save by adding Endo could make or break your build. Then there are the fixed JJs and equipment like Masc that your stuck with like on the Executioner which has 12 fricken tons and 8 critical slots devoted to this equipment.

Now take all those restrictions, toss it into a IS mech with its larger, heavier equipment sizes that would drastically limit what weapons and equipment could be mounted where and you end up with a train wreck of a mech.

Edited by Angel of Annihilation, 10 March 2019 - 07:35 PM.

[FupDup]

Angel of Annihilation, on 10 March 2019 - 07:35 PM, said:

They have avoided IS Omnis because they are going to be pure rubbish for the most part. People just don't seem to realize or remember all the crazy restrictions and limitations PGI imposed on Clan Omnimechs in an attempt to balance them. The vast, vast majority of Clan Omnimechs are un-optimized as hell. Some have extra DHS slots in the engine that are left unfilled. The structure and armor are fixed, often technically leaving you with what should be plenty of slots to add a few more DHS or some other piece of equipment but due to the fixed nature, put those slots in places they can't be used. Those fixed armor and structure slots often restrict you from being able to mount specific weapons and equipment. Then there is the fixed structure and armor type which often time sticks you with the weight inefficient FF instead of the weight efficient Endo or leaves you with standard structure when the 2-3 tons you would save by adding Endo could make or break your build. Then there are the fixed JJs and equipment like Masc that your stuck with like on the Executioner which has 12 fricken tons and 8 critical slots devoted to this equipment.

Now take all those restrictions, toss it into a IS mech with its larger, heavier equipment sizes that would drastically limit what weapons and equipment could be mounted where and you end up with a train wreck of a mech.

PGI did not impose most of those restrictions, BT/TT did. PGI merely copied them over.

The two restrictions that PGI made up are locking modular JJs like on the KFX-S and TBR-S and having hardpoint limitations. Of course, the added hardpoint restriction also applies to Battlemechs so I don't really count it.

However, PGI has loosened the restriction on armor, allowing you to re-allocate armor points as you see fit rather than TT's way of having Omni armor permalocked at stock levels (unless you wanted to get a refit kit and turn your Omni into a Battlemech). This change alone pretty much saved most Omnimechs, because TT either gives them too little stock armor or way too much rear armor. PGI did also unlock the Flamer on the Adder...still waiting/hoping for them to unlock the Mist Lynx's CAP.

As for IS Omnis, some of them actually have a good shot at being viable in MWO. The Raptor and Men Shen would be fine with IS XL. The Hauptmann has a STD engine so it doesn't have to worry much. Beyond that the only real problem is PGI's adamant refusal to buff bad robots with strong enough quirks to matter. If they weren't so stingy with quirks then we could make literally anything viable with little effort.

[Koniving]

Pretty much as Fup said.

Yes, some would be rubbish (particularly those locked with standard heatsinks) but those happen to be very viable beyond that minor issue. Now if standard heatsinks had some sort of thing to make them worth while, it'd be great...but the only real reason heatsinks are bad is because PGI. (An increasing threshold only hurts standard heatsinks by making them seem even slower to cool. Combine this with front-loaded weapon heat add in that all weapons in MWO, regardless of tweaks, generate at the very least [with one or two exceptions] 4 times the damage and heat of tabletop weapons...and yep, that one is on PGI.)

Spoiler

(A weapon classification [such as small laser, an AC/5, etc... is based on damage in an expected amount of time...for heat in an expected amount of time. Its not 1 unit of heat per shot, its one unit of heat per 'use' in a span of ten seconds, where a use could be anything from 0.1 seconds to 5 seconds of firing (depending on what it is). So a Pontiac 100 for example might've fired a hundred bullets in 2 seconds, and generated 7 heat, and that would be one of its 5 reloads of ammunition in 1 ton of ammo which it takes about 3 seconds to reload. MWO says we do that each time we fire, and we can do that up to 4 times in 10 seconds with the right quirks and skill tree to net 80 damage and 24 heat [and without them, we can do it a minimum of 3 times in 8 seconds generating 60 damage and 18 heat, which is a far cry from tabletop's 14 heat and 40 damage]. As such DHS is required here because PGI, as is double armor/structure and armor/structure buffs on top of them..)

This said, as Fup had mentioned, most of those restrictions are from the lore/rules, and while they seem very limiting here, its because another element of the rules was simply ignored.

Spoiler

You can't easily swap stuff on a mech. Yes, you can swap stuff, but there's months involved for a transformation like we see in MWO, as well as cost, failure (as an example just changing a Jenner D to a Jenner K (remove SRM, change armor type, increase amount of armor), I had a failure so colossal that the Jenner became a paperweight because it could walk anymore, an actuator became permanently fused because some smuck under Scotty the god-modded Engineer's guidance messed up! (And Scotty is there with a 0 modifier for failure AND 2 point bonus making him not only god modded but superior to anything that is canonically possible even within god-modded legitimacy).)...etc..

But with Omnimechs you can! But while using construction rules on Battlemechs (so that you can bring your own gundams into Battletech; trust me, I've tried it and have a look out for "putting ridiculous crap in Battletech", where the starting staple will be putting THIS into Battletech) as opposed to Customization Rules (you can find them in Mechwarrior RPG, Classic Battletech RPG, and generally in any level 3 book; and I believe in the Battletech Battlemech manual released 2018, though the clearest and most sensible version is in the RPG rule books as it accounts for all the different conditions, whether or not you have the proper tools and the help of a loader mech [Patron's cheap and effective, Powerman is a common choice, I particularly like my rendition of Loader King but 50 tons is a bit of an issue to carry around. Whatever you do, don't use a Buster they're prone to causing more issues than you want to deal with]).

(Even ignoring all of this fluff for a summary, basically you'd have a Mechwarrior 5 situation for customization of your Battlemechs if PGI actually spent time with the rules for Battlemechs too. Its not that you can't... its that you can't given what you have. But since that wasn't adhered to, Omnimechs appear to suck don't they? PGI ignored the rules in one case, and adhered to them in another.)

[Anjian]

Starquestman, on 09 March 2019 - 06:02 PM, said:

Mad Cat is the name the IS gave the Timberwolf, and I thought I read somewhere that the MKII was the IS modification or something. So it's Inner Sphere...

But in the Mechlab, it shows up as a Clan mech. It's on my clan mech drop deck as we speak. So it's clan??

But if it's clan, how come I don't have omni pods available to swap between my two variants??

Mad Cat Mk II is made by a Clan, specifically Clan Diamond Shark. While Timberwolf is the name the Clans gave to the so called original Mad Cat, whose name was given by the IS, CDS decided to use the name Mad Cat as a successful product branding. They made the mech in hopes of selling it to the Clans, and when the Clans didn't buy enough of the product, CDS sold it to the Inner Sphere. This practice would also continue to the Mad Cat Mark III and IV.

[Anjian]

Angel of Annihilation, on 10 March 2019 - 07:23 PM, said:

The poor Timberwolf is so underrated anymore and I just don't understand why. I still easily pull 400-500 damage per match out of mine. Honestly, if you want the truth, I don't really think there is a better all purpose heavy in the game than the Timberwolf. It can be built pretty much any way you want it, to do about anything you would want it to do. It is also exceptionally fast for a heavy mech. Finally the hitboxes really aren't all that bad, I would even rate them as above average, at least if you avoid the missile ears but that is a "feature" of the Madcat Mk II as well. Heck if you want to get down to it, the Madcat MkII honestly has near identical hitboxes to the Timberwolf and it is regarded as a exceptional mech. It's only problem in MWO is that there are just so many "Specialist" mechs that do their specialty better than the Timberwolf, that it has kind of become obsolete. However, I would still rate it a solid 7-8 out of 10 on the power curve.

With that being said, from a lore perspective and if Battletech/Mechwarrior were real, the well rounded, general purpose capability of the Timberwolf, would have made it an exceptional battlefield mech. More armor than many assaults (per the TROs), faster than many mediums, plenty of firepower and the versatility to do just about anything a commander or pilot would need a mech to do, would have placed the Timberwolf at the Apex, without a doubt. With that in mind, I think strictly speaking from a lore perspective and considering real battlefield conditions where operational flexibility would be perhaps one of the most important factors to winning a battle, the Timberwolf's lore based reputation is likely well deserved.

The problem of the Timberwolf specific to MWO is the low slung arms, in a game that made high mounted firing positions important.

The Mk II fixed that problem.