271 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

@hammermaster there is a magical heatspike in BT when a ST blows up on an XL mech?

[Cyanogene]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 03:44 AM, said:

If its destroyed its destroyed, you can't shoot smth that is destroyed, it is already blown up, pulverized, grinded into fine dust, annihilated and dispersed into the wind.

Poetic.

[Prototelis]

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 03:32 AM, said:

I am asking specifically because PhoenixFire is arguing the destroyed component falls off the 'Mech,

Whether it falls off or is irrelevant. If they are no longer part of the system they are no longer part of the system. We can assume that the coolant system in a battlemech has quick disconnects, shut offs, and metering valves all throughout the cooling system.

Infact, every car you've ever driven has a thermostat. On engine startup the thermostat is closed so that the engine can more quickly reach operating temperature. Once the coolant in the engine reaches a certain temperature or temperature range this thermostat opens and allows coolant to pass between the engine and the radiator. Operating temperature is the point at which engine oil is saturated with enough heat to achieve peak viscosity. To be brief, Oil does more than one thing in an ICE engine; Cooling, lubricating, and cleaning. I could talk about ICE engine theory for hours, but instead I recommend you download and enjoy the FREE FAA powerplant textbook. It's REALLY good ****.

https://www.faa.gov/...plant-Vol-1.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/...plant-Vol-2.pdf



In the lore (Oh god, you made me do it) pilots are able to tune down or shut off heatsinks in order to hide their heat signature. A broken heatsink would in fact conduct heat into the structure of a battlemech, but it would not instantly conduct all of its heat into the cooling system.

A small increase over time on heatsink or ST destruction would make sense, an instantaneous transfer of all of the heat in a destroyed component does not make any physical sense.

Damage transfer is a brilliant mechanic. It makes perfect sense that what remains physically of a destroyed component would "soften" the blow of another hit. This mechanic also rewards good twisting, and shielding. ******* bonus. Honestly, you should receive some match score for every point of damage mitigated through this mechanic. Soaking is somewhat of a dark art in this game for some reason.

[Subhntr]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 03:48 AM, said:

True. In the same manner that one can claim his bycicle is an experimental interstellar ship. Except it can't go into space yet.

A less hyperbolic comparison would be between a current computer and one from 20 years ago - same underlying technology, same basic principles, but only one can run MWO.

[Curccu]

Koniving, on 17 March 2019 - 07:23 PM, said:

When your Computer isn't doing anything but idling, you're at around 42 degrees celsius on you CPU.
When you turn on Mechwarrior online you can see it spike to 70 degrees celsius.
Why is that?
You're using it.

And if you remove 30% of your CPU cooler instantly somehow does your CPU heat in that same instant 30%?

Koniving, on 17 March 2019 - 07:23 PM, said:

An M60 is cold to the touch.
You fire it until the barrel steams.
Now its hot...why is that?
You used it.

And if you remove 30% of your barrel does your remaining barrel instantly heat 30%?

Koniving, on 17 March 2019 - 07:23 PM, said:

Touch a heater, it's cold.
Turn it on, wait a minute...
Now its hot.
Why?
Oh, you used it.

And if you remove 30% of your heater does your remaining part of the heater instantly heat 30%?

Koniving, on 17 March 2019 - 06:38 PM, said:

Your car's radiator is a heatsink.

Let your car get hot.
Open the radiator.
Lose coolant.
Is your car suddenly cold?
Or has its heat drastically increased, despite jetting out the coolant? (Which the car will say its increased when the radiator suddenly has no fluid because the amount of coolant that's absorbing and pulling the heat away from the engine has significantly dropped... Its still generating heat at the same rate, it just can't cool anymore.)

Pretty sure that car didn't magically get cold.

So why do you expect to magically get cold?

I have not seen anyone ask any magic tricks to become cold, people have asked not to become extra hot magically.
You let your car run until engine is hot, shutdown engine, remove radiator... does engine get hotter?

Koniving, on 17 March 2019 - 06:38 PM, said:

In addition to 1/4th of your engine being destroyed, you also lose a crap load of heatsinks (this is where the real heat spike is coming from, you lose the maximum threshold and a significant chunk of it). Meanwhile any unsunk heat (which is NOT in your heatsinks because it's still there, you sink at a rate of X.xx per second, if its in your bar, it is NOT in your heatsinks yet.

Of course heat is already in your heatsinks, isn't the point of heatsinks? to absorb heat from the source and dissipate it over time?

edit: typo

Edited by Curccu, 18 March 2019 - 04:33 AM.

[RickySpanish]

It's funny because the more thought you give to the idea that heat vanishes when a component is destroyed, the less clear the sense in that argument becomes. Consider a simple example of a 'Mech in a vacuum. In such a scenario a component still attached to a 'Mech would transfer heat into the 'Mech when destroyed, unless that component becomes physically detached. The only way to transfer heat in a vacuum without touching something is through infrared radiation (which is slow). 'Mechs don't tend to fight in a vacuum, but if we consider that heatsinks very definitely ARE crucial, we must surmise that without them, a 'Mech's natural ability to transfer heat to its surroundings is terrible. Therefore, the heat contained in a destroyed component not actually separated from a 'Mech is likely to have an impact on the 'Mech. How much of an impact? Who knows, but anyone with any sort of grounding in physics or thermodynamics can see that the argument is nowhere near as simple as "derp, heat vanishes".

[Subhntr]

Curccu, on 18 March 2019 - 04:21 AM, said:

And if you remove 30% of your heater does your remaining part of the heater instantly heat 30%?

If you remove 30% of the stove around a burning fire, does the room suddenly get hot? And is it harder to cool the room at that point?

What is contained in the ST isn't engine heat sinks, but reactor shielding - the stove around the fire.

[Besh]

RickySpanish, on 18 March 2019 - 04:22 AM, said:

It's funny because the more thought you give to the idea that heat vanishes when a component is destroyed, the less clear the sense in that argument becomes. Consider a simple example of a 'Mech in a vacuum. In such a scenario a component still attached to a 'Mech would transfer heat into the 'Mech when destroyed, unless that component becomes physically detached. The only way to transfer heat in a vacuum without touching something is through infrared radiation (which is slow). 'Mechs don't tend to fight in a vacuum, but if we consider that heatsinks very definitely ARE crucial, we must surmise that without them, a 'Mech's natural ability to transfer heat to its surroundings is terrible. Therefore, the heat contained in a destroyed component not actually separated from a 'Mech is likely to have an impact on the 'Mech. How much of an impact? Who knows, but anyone with any sort of grounding in physics or thermodynamics can see that the argument is nowhere near as simple as "derp, heat vanishes".

Thanks . I was trying to figure out a way to get all that across, but english is not my native Language, and I was not able to put it as simple and precise as you do .

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 04:33 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 04:30 AM, said:

Thanks . I was trying to figure out a way to get all that across, but english is not my native Language, and I was not able to put it as simple and precise as you do .

Oh I thought you wrote it very clearly, it's an interesting problem to think about!

[Curccu]

Subhntr, on 18 March 2019 - 04:28 AM, said:

If you remove 30% of the stove around a burning fire, does the room suddenly get hot? And is it harder to cool the room at that point?

What is contained in the ST isn't engine heat sinks, but reactor shielding - the stove around the fire.

I would say no, rooms air doesn't instantly heatspike.
if fire will release same amount of energy into the room all the time...
it will warm stove and that radiates that heat into the room.
if 30% of stove removed sure some of that energy goes directly into the air of the room, but I don't see that fire becoming more powerful because part of the stove is removed.

[PhoenixFire55]

RickySpanish, on 18 March 2019 - 04:22 AM, said:

Consider a simple example of a 'Mech in a vacuum. In such a scenario a component still attached to a 'Mech would transfer heat into the 'Mech when destroyed, unless that component becomes physically detached. The only way to transfer heat in a vacuum without touching something is through infrared radiation (which is slow).

This is some weird kindergarden physics going on here. How can something tranfer anything to anyone if its "destroyed"? If you blow something up, then its particles are either destroyed, i.e. turned into radiation, or simply scattered in all directions of infinite cosmos never touching anything in your vacuum. Something that has been "destroyed" can't be attached to anything anymore.

It is pointless to discuss unless you specify EXACTLY how a heat sink works and EXACTLY which part of it, or which substance in it or whatever actually is responsible for storing / tranferring heat.

And if anything, damaging (not completely destroying) a torso should INCREASE heat dissipation, because as we all know making holes in something improves both ventillation and surface area, and more surface area always means faster cooling.

[Besh]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 04:43 AM, said:

This is some weird kindergarden physics going on here. How can something tranfer anything to anyone if its "destroyed"? If you blow something up, then its particles are either destroyed, i.e. turned into radiation, or simply scattered in all directions of infinite cosmos never touching anything in your vacuum. Something that has been "destroyed" can't be attached to anything anymore.

It is pointless to discuss unless you specify EXACTLY how a heat sink works and EXACTLY which part of it, or which substance in it or whatever actually is responsible for storing / tranferring heat.

And if anything, damaging (not completely destroying) a torso should INCREASE heat dissipation, because as we all know making holes in something improves both ventillation and surface area, and more surface area always means faster cooling.

Again: If you destroy a Heatsink, which is hot, what exactly happens to the energy having been stored in the HS as Heat ? Does it magically disappear ? If not, where exactly does it go, and how ? Related question : does the Game actually mean the Heatsink blew up - as in explosion - or does "component destroyed/heatsink destroyed" mean the mentioned parts are out of function ? Bonus : does the answer to the question "In Game, is a destroyed component physically deatched" have any kind of bearing on the Problem ?

Seriously...you destroy a hot/heat storing/dissipating part of a 'Mech that has been inside the 'Mech , and NEITHER the already existing Heat in that part, nor - should it be blown up - the explosion of the part, or the component housing that part,have ANY kind of thermal effect on the 'Mech the exploding ("being blown up") part has been INSIDE of ?

Yes?

Kindergarden Physics all right....

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 05:38 AM.

[RickySpanish]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 04:43 AM, said:

This is some weird kindergarden physics going on here. How can something tranfer anything to anyone if its "destroyed"? If you blow something up, then its particles are either destroyed, i.e. turned into radiation, or simply scattered in all directions of infinite cosmos never touching anything in your vacuum. Something that has been "destroyed" can't be attached to anything anymore.

It is pointless to discuss unless you specify EXACTLY how a heat sink works and EXACTLY which part of it, or which substance in it or whatever actually is responsible for storing / tranferring heat.

And if anything, damaging (not completely destroying) a torso should INCREASE heat dissipation, because as we all know making holes in something improves both ventillation and surface area, and more surface area always means faster cooling.

Tell me good sir, does a side torso fall off a 'Mech when it is destroyed? What about the legs? Only arms are physically removed. You guys keep making the same argument that a destroyed component takes its heat with it without ever having looked at what happens when a component is destroyed. It's only Kindergarden physics to you because sadly, you appear to have failed to comprehend the scope of the problem.

[Grus]

ST heat spike was the hardest clan nerf of late... and they want to make it worse... fml.

[Prototelis]

Uhg.

First thing; Battlemech cooling systems actually work much more like your home air conditioner than they do a car radiator or a computer heatsink. (I'm P.sure it only gets brought up because its easier to explain ans because both methods do the same job)

Second thing; The heat bar does not represent the temperature of a mech it represents the temperature of the coolant system.

Edited by Prototelis, 18 March 2019 - 05:15 AM.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 18 March 2019 - 05:11 AM, said:

Second thing; The heat bar does not represent the temperature of a mech it represents the temperature of the coolant system.

Better but still not quite there.

The heat bar represents the heat retaliative to the heat capacity.

Another mistake people are making is that the whole system has a consistent temperature.

[Besh]

Prototelis, on 18 March 2019 - 05:11 AM, said:

Uhg.

First thing; Battlemech cooling systems actually work much more like your home air conditioner than they do a car radiator or a computer heatsink. (I'm P.sure it only gets brought up because its easier to explain ans because both methods do the same job)

Second thing; The heat bar does not represent the temperature of a mech it represents the temperature of the coolant system.

First thing: nope . When talking external HS, basically pretty much like modern Cars radiators ( https://auto.howstuf...ling-system.htm ) .

Second thing: as VonBruinwald pointed out .

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 05:49 AM.

[Besh]

Curccu, on 18 March 2019 - 04:42 AM, said:

I would say no, rooms air doesn't instantly heatspike.
if fire will release same amount of energy into the room all the time...
it will warm stove and that radiates that heat into the room.
if 30% of stove removed sure some of that energy goes directly into the air of the room, but I don't see that fire becoming more powerful because part of the stove is removed.

The air in the room wil heat up MUCH quicker when 30% of the stove are removed . Simple experiment : Stand in front of a stove burning wood with its loading door closed . Now, open the door, keep standing at the same spot . What do you feel ?

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 06:02 AM.

[K O Z A K]

You people didnt finish middle school, did you? If the heat sink gets blown off the mech the heat in it certainly doesn't disappear, the heat leaves the mech with the blown off heatsink, falls to the ground and is now very slowly dissipating on the ground/water/air. If the heatsink doesn't get blown off the mech, is damaged to a point it stops working, but remains part of the system your heat capacity/limit wouldn't even decrease, as you still have a chunk of metal which heat sits in/is transferred to/from, but you would lose the dissipation it provided, you still wouldn't see a magic heat spike from the heat already stored in the broken heatsink.

[PhoenixFire55]

RickySpanish, on 18 March 2019 - 05:05 AM, said:

Tell me good sir, does a side torso fall off a 'Mech when it is destroyed? What about the legs? Only arms are physically removed. You guys keep making the same argument that a destroyed component takes its heat with it without ever having looked at what happens when a component is destroyed. It's only Kindergarden physics to you because sadly, you appear to have failed to comprehend the scope of the problem.

The fact that PGI can't make components properly fall off for whatever dumb reason, doesn't mean that they aren't supposed to "fall off", or rather "be destroyed" when they are destroyed. Again, for the who-knows-what-time today ... "destroyed" component means exactly that ... DESTROYED. Gone. No more. Naah ah. Nope. Doesn't exist anymore. Period.

Even if we want to be dumb and assume that something that was just destroyed, i.e. torn to shreds, evaporated and scattered by the wind is still somehow by the sheer force of our dumb will attached to the rest of the mech, then it still has no reason whatsoever to transfer its heat to the rest of the mech that isn't magically labeled 'destroyed'.

I have a feeling that people here don't even understand what 'heat' is. 'Heat' isn't a water in a glass. It doesn't have to go anywhere if you destroy a glass, because it doesn't exist without a glass to begin with.