271 replies to this topic

[VonBruinwald]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 07:50 AM, said:

And needless to say, since we got case system that prevents damage (i.e. heat, kinetic energy, whatever energy) transfer into the CT when a side goes pop, there surely would have been an exact same case system for the heat transfer system that would prevent the heat transfer in the exact same way (i.e. cut off whatever isn't needed) if it was needed.

You know, I actually think you're on to something. We need a new piece of equipment "Thermal Buffer", it prevents the heat spike on a ST loss. IS mechs get it for free, clan mechs have to pay 1.5ton and 3 slots per side torso for this. Kinda like a counter balance to the free Clan CASE. Lore wise you can say the Clan's stripped it out in order to save weight/space on their XL's.

RickySpanish, on 18 March 2019 - 07:59 AM, said:

Mate, at this point we may all just agree to disagree. We have done everything to try and convince you of the metaphorical roundness of the Earth, I guess the idea just isn't...

*puts on glasses*

Transferring.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah!

Can't help but smile every time I read that Ricky.

[Besh]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 07:50 AM, said:

What does it matter? ... If they are pumps they pump something else - a heat conducting medium that is present in them and internal heat transfer system that covers the entire mech. If you cut off a % of that system and a % of that medium, it still doesn't magically transfer the heat that was present in that % onto the remaining part.

And needless to say, since we got case system that prevents damage (i.e. heat, kinetic energy, whatever energy) transfer into the CT when a side goes pop, there surely would have been an exact same case system for the heat transfer system that would prevent the heat transfer in the exact same way (i.e. cut off whatever isn't needed) if it was needed. But it isn't even needed because heat can't magically instantly jump from one place to another.

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 08:37 AM.

[Besh]

Prototelis, on 18 March 2019 - 08:23 AM, said:

No. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heat_Sink

You're wilfully ignoring this part;

Heat sinks operate by collecting heat with coolant distributed to heat sources (weapons, engines, myomers, electronics, etc.) and delivering that to a radiator. Because a BattleMech may operate in environments considerably hotter than the interior of the 'Mech, the system includes a heat pump to "force" the heat out of the 'Mech by elevating the temperature of the coolant in some reversible fashion. (The vapor-compression heat pump of home air conditioners is a typical example, but 31st Century BattleMechs may make use of more exotic heat pumps.)


That is how the second law of thermodynamics work. LEH SIGH.



You're making this part up.



You are misinterpreting what is stated in the article in question, and you don't understand the second law of thermodynamics.



You're ignoring "force" the heat out of the 'Mech by elevating the temperature of the coolant in some reversible fashion."


That heat WOULD NOT DISSIPATE unless the heatsink was HOTTER than the environment it is in.

Yes, it has a radiator kind of like a car. NO it does not work just like a car.

Idk how to put in text you quoted to reply to, but I have to add that I edited out some of my original post . obviously while you were replying to it, because I realized I may not be correct . I did this editing out BEFORE I wrote your reply, it had nothing to do with devalidating what you wrote .

Also: ELEVATION OF THE COOLANT TEMERATURE WITHIN THE HS WOULD ONLY BE NECESSARY IF THE ENVIRONMENT WAS CONSIDERABLY HOTTER THAN THE INTERIOR OF THE 'MECH/COOLANT/HEATSINK .

Nowhere does Sarna state that this is the normal Situtaion . It in fact says "Because a BattleMech may operate in environments considerably hotter than the interior of the 'Mech, the system includes a heat pump to "force" the heat out of the 'Mech[...]." This indicates that for most environments 'Mechs operate in, HeatPump is not needed .

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 08:58 AM.

[Prototelis]

That's perfectly okay with me my dude, as long as you understand that heat doesn't move to where it is already hotter.

[RickySpanish]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 08:02 AM, said:

You talk about thermodynamics while you don't even understand what 'heat' is ... lol

I'll let you in on a secret ... Don't tell anyone, coz it can blow their minds off too. Heat is nothing but kinetic energy. And just like kinetic energy of a gauss slug becomes a different form of energy in order to explode your face, 'heat' stored in a heat sink can easily become something else entirely too. Like for example, the kinetic energy of bits and pieces of your exploding heat sink flying at high velocity away from your mech.



FTFY.

Nobody is denying that an exploding heatsink is going to transfer some of its energy into its surroundings via concussive force. The argument I'm making is that the heatsink doesn't necessarily explode, it may just become inoperable. I draw this idea from the fact that most components on a 'Mech do not disintegrate when they are destroyed. In this case, that energy is still inside the 'Mech waiting to either explode, or transfer to surrounding components. I would be open to the idea of heatsinks acting as bombs instead of just transferring a heat spike - the more heat you have when you lose a torso the more severe the possibility of an ammo explosion type effect. Any unexploded heatsinks could also slowly transfer that potential energy into the 'Mech.

[Besh]

Prototelis, on 18 March 2019 - 08:49 AM, said:

That's perfectly okay with me my dude, as long as you understand that heat doesn't move to where it is already hotter.

I perfectly understand that man, I just think the HeatPump is a System not incoorprated in the "standard" cooling process, rather built in to be switched on in those cases where 'Mechs are operating in really hot environments .

RickySpanish, on 18 March 2019 - 08:56 AM, said:

Nobody is denying that an exploding heatsink is going to transfer some of its energy into its surroundings via concussive force. The argument I'm making is that the heatsink doesn't necessarily explode, it may just become inoperable. I draw this idea from the fact that most components on a 'Mech do not disintegrate when they are destroyed. In this case, that energy is still inside the 'Mech waiting to either explode, or transfer to surrounding components. I would be open to the idea of heatsinks acting as bombs instead of just transferring a heat spike - the more heat you have when you lose a torso the more severe the possibility of an ammo explosion type effect. Any unexploded heatsinks could also slowly transfer that potential energy into the 'Mech.

Oh well, he did . In one of his previous Posts he stated "that Heat is gone..." .

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 09:00 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 09:02 AM, said:

I perfectly understand that man, I just think the HeatPump is a System not incoorprated in the "standard" cooling process, rather built in to be switched on in those cases where 'Mechs are operating in really hot environments .



Oh well, he did . In one of his previous Posts he stated "that Heat is gone..." .

I think he meant that it had escaped as pieces of shrapnel etc, but as we know not all of it does. I actually don't hate the change, it makes more sense to me than the old system where you miraculously lost half of your 'Mech's internal functionality without my catastrophe.

[Khobai]

Quote

Repeating the same bullsh*t ten times in a row doesn't make your bullsh*t any less stupid.

"Engine" produces heat all the time. Mech engine does not. Weapons produce heat. If I am not firing I am not producing any heat. Heat already produced isn't magically staying in the engine or the weapons, it is absorbed and dissipated by the cooling system, namely heat sinks. If a certain percentage of heat sinks are gone, that the exact same percentage of already generated heat is gone along with it.

If you would spend less time copy-pasting bullsh*t on the forum and more time reading books on thermodynamics you so gallantly quote, maybe you'd know this ...

Again. Study harder.

I like how the guy that thinks heat energy magically disappear when a mech's ST gets destroyed is telling other people they need to study thermodynamics. Seriously do you even know the laws of thermodynamics? If you have a closed coolant loop that uses heatsinks to vent heat to the outside and those heatsinks are suddenly destroyed that heat is now trapped inside the mech because the coolant isnt able to carry it to the heatsinks. The heat is going to accumulate inside the mech because it has nowhere else to go.

The whole concept you seem to be missing is that heatsinks themselves dont actually store heat. Heatsinks simply exchange heat between the cryogenic coolant and the outside air. The heat itself is stored in the hundreds of feet of coolant lines and the cryogenic coolant (liquid helium cooled by liquid nitrogen probably) that run through the entire mech. Losing the heatsinks would not make the heat magically disappear. Thats not how cryogenic cooling systems work at all. And if the heatsinks are destroyed or the coolant lines are ruptured they can no longer carry the heat away at all so the heat is definitely going to accomulate.

Regardless, arguing about how thermodynamics works in real life is stupid, because were mostly all in agreement that heatspike on ST destruction is a bad game mechanic. Not only because it isnt fun but also because it upsets the balance between ISXL and LFE by diminishing the value of LFE engines.

The only people that want this heatspike BS are the hardcore simulator crowd. But MWO is not, never has been, and never will be a simulation game. And they need to understand that.

Edited by Khobai, 18 March 2019 - 12:06 PM.

[2DaT]

Khobai, on 18 March 2019 - 11:32 AM, said:

I like how the guy that thinks heat energy magically disappear when a mech's ST gets destroyed is telling other people they need to study thermodynamics. Seriously do you even know the laws of thermodynamics? If you have a closed coolant loop that uses heatsinks to vent heat to the outside and those heatsinks are suddenly destroyed that heat is now trapped inside the mech because the coolant isnt able to carry it to the heatsinks. Youre going to get heat accumulation if the heat cant escape out of the mech.

Regardless, arguing about how thermodynamics works in real life is stupid, because were mostly all in agreement that heatspike on ST destruction is a bad game mechanic. Not only because it isnt fun but also because it upsets the balance between ISXL and LFE by diminishing the value of LFE engines.

The only people that want this heatspike BS are the hardcore simulator crowd. But MWO is not, never has been, and never will be a simulation game. And they need to understand that.

Nope, this does not make any sense. In fact, energy "flowing" backwards violates the second law of thermodynamics.

[HammerMaster]

Hazeclaw, on 17 March 2019 - 05:42 PM, said:

For the billionth time.
WE'VE HAD BALANCING DONE AROUND THE FACT SOME BUILDS ARE MEANT TO RIDE THEIR HEAT TO BE EFFECTIVE FOR YEARS NOW

Just because you always played your energy mechs at 25% heat, doesn't mean the people that know how to ride the heat should get nerfed

Now all of a sudden we decided to punish people for playing their mechs correctly. On hot mechs LFE and CXL is essentially ISXL now, and just to make it more fun clan omnimechs can't change their engines. Coolshot nerfs to curb high laser alphas don't help this situation either

Wow you brought the same 6 detractors that always like the antithesis of my posts.
/applaud

Yes punish you.
You guys are the ones saying that continuing to play without consequences is the issue.

Prototelis, on 17 March 2019 - 05:42 PM, said:

This isn't a boardgame. This isn't a boardgame simulator.

I'd go back and check the name of this franchise.

Wil McCullough, on 17 March 2019 - 06:21 PM, said:

What on earth are you on about? What mechwarrior skills?

Also lol at capslock rage.

Edit: there's one thing that i've always wanted to ask. In lore, mech pilots often fought in underwear because of the intense heat in the cockpit. Do lore nerds like yourself also play mwo in your skivvies for that extra authentic experience?

Sure why not?

Edited by HammerMaster, 18 March 2019 - 01:28 PM.

[HammerMaster]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 12:27 AM, said:

BT huh? ... Well, chump, since you are advocating BT, then how about we go BT and remove free target info sharing between mechs? I bet you wouldn't like that mr.hold-me-locks.

I don't advocate for the parasitic sit back back lock farmers.
If you read more than one of my posts you would have seen that.
I have called for removal of free c3 style locks for YEARS now.
Don't mistake my disdain for your lack of observation of the ruleset for LRM abuse.

Zombiesbum, on 18 March 2019 - 01:51 AM, said:

This is not BT mate. Stop comparing the two as if they should be the same. Otherwise I can complain that all the clan mechs are not powerful enough as clan mechs and weapons are better in every single way in the lore. Now how **** would that make game play if clan mechs and weapons were buffed in order to fit lore?

As a side note. I would not mind the change to heat if coolshot didn't cost me 40k credits. I rarely use consumables because they do not pay out what they cost. Once I have all the mechs I want I'll stop caring about credits, but until then I guess I'm a scrub.

They should and that stinks too.
But I advocated for REMOVAL of clans so...

Lily from animove, on 18 March 2019 - 03:53 AM, said:

@hammermaster there is a magical heatspike in BT when a ST blows up on an XL mech?

Not that I'm aware but there is also penalties that apply when redlining heat. Yes I know different line of questioning.

Edited by HammerMaster, 18 March 2019 - 01:30 PM.

[RickySpanish]

2DaT, on 18 March 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

Nope, this does not make any sense. In fact, energy "flowing" backwards violates the second law of thermodynamics.

Oh please, do explain how this violates the second law...

[RickySpanish]

Just to be clear, 2DaT, are you saying that there will be little/no transfer of energy from "destroyed" components because at that moment, the entropy in the components and the surviving 'Mech are more or less equal?

[Besh]

2DaT, on 18 March 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

Nope, this does not make any sense. In fact, energy "flowing" backwards violates the second law of thermodynamics.

RickySpanish, on 18 March 2019 - 01:29 PM, said:

Oh please, do explain how this violates the second law...

Yeah, I would really be interested in that too . From what I understand though, he seems to think that hot cooling Liquid flowing toward the heatsink, but not having a Heatsink to go to since that has been destroyed, therefore the Liquid having nowhere to go to to get rid of the Heat and Heat subsequently starting to to accumulate "inside" the 'Mech violates 2ndLoThD .

p.s.: I wanted to insert a gif under the quote of his post, but I cant for my Life figure out how . Neither the image button in the editor, nor putting it into BBCode Tags does work . Does it need HTML Tags ?

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 01:47 PM.

[Prototelis]

HammerMaster, on 18 March 2019 - 01:21 PM, said:

I'd go back and check the name of this franchise.

Its called mechwarrior, its part of the action vehicle game series of the same name. It is not BattletechMMO:The boardgame simulator.

They have HBS:Battletech for that itch. Go play that if you don't like and aren't good at the action game adaption.

[HammerMaster]

Prototelis, on 18 March 2019 - 02:26 PM, said:

Its called mechwarrior, its part of the action vehicle game series of the same name. It is not BattletechMMO:The boardgame simulator.

They have HBS:Battletech for that itch. Go play that if you don't like and aren't good at the action game adaption.

Haha. There it is! I'm not good as you again!
So my stance has no merit.
YOU GO SIR!
Keeping it elite.

Edited by HammerMaster, 18 March 2019 - 02:34 PM.

[2DaT]

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 01:41 PM, said:

Yeah, I would really be interested in that too . From what I understand though, he seems to think that hot cooling Liquid flowing toward the heatsink, but not having a Heatsink to go to since that has been destroyed, therefore the Liquid having nowhere to go to to get rid of the Heat and Heat subsequently starting to to accumulate "inside" the 'Mech violates 2ndLoThD .

p.s.: I wanted to insert a gif under the quote of his post, but I cant for my Life figure out how . Neither the image button in the editor, nor putting it into BBCode Tags does work . Does it need HTML Tags ?

Heat capacity of a whatever liquid they use for heat transfer is neligible. It's obvious from the heat capacity scaling.

[K O Z A K]

HammerMaster, on 18 March 2019 - 01:14 PM, said:

You guys are the ones saying that continuing to play without consequences is the issue.

that's the dumbest **** ever: playing something as intended by years of balancing is playing without consequences?

lets make some other changes to make "consequences", like I dunno.....leading targets with dakka will violently jerk your torso, charging a gauss rifle before having it on target makes it explode, all guided missiles should fly back at the launch mech if you lose lock before they hit the target, flamers automatically heat up all nearby friendly mechs when used, lasers should reflect back at your mech when they hit anything shiny, etc. Cause wtf, we've been playing all those things without consequences

[2DaT]

RickySpanish, on 18 March 2019 - 01:37 PM, said:

Just to be clear, 2DaT, are you saying that there will be little/no transfer of energy from "destroyed" components because at that moment, the entropy in the components and the surviving 'Mech are more or less equal?

Heatsinks have to operate on the same temperature to maximize efficiency. When heatsink gets shot, it has safe temperature and can't damage anything afterwards, even if disconnected from the cooling system.

Edited by 2DaT, 18 March 2019 - 02:44 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Hazeclaw, on 18 March 2019 - 02:37 PM, said:

that's the dumbest **** ever: playing something as intended by years of balancing is playing without consequences?

lets make some other changes to make "consequences", like I dunno.....leading targets with dakka will violently jerk your torso, charging a gauss rifle before having it on target makes it explode, all guided missiles should fly back at the launch mech if you lose lock before they hit the target, flamers automatically heat up all nearby friendly mechs when used, lasers should reflect back at your mech when they hit anything shiny, etc. Cause wtf, we've been playing all those things without consequences

That's extreme.
And YES AutoCannon Fire SHOULD have recoil but I don't know since MW3 got it right and no one else has.

Edited by HammerMaster, 18 March 2019 - 02:41 PM.