121 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

zerosouL, on 20 March 2019 - 05:36 AM, said:

Other weapons cant shoot you without LOS and over obstacles like LRMs. And thats why we have AMS to counter that.

that is false. LRMs cannot hit you without LoS. If you are getting hit with LRMs its either because someone on the other team has LoS to you, someone on the other team had LoS to you and hit you with a NARC, or a UAV has LoS to you and your team isnt shooting down UAVs. Unless someone on the other team has LoS on you, you cannot get hit by indirect LRMs. Indirect LRMs dont remove the LoS requirement, they simply allow other mechs/narc/uavs on their team to provide the LoS instead. If you dont want to get hit by LRMs stay out of LoS when your weapons are on cooldown. Its not a hard thing to do.

and we never needed AMS to counter LRMs. LRMs are perfectly crappy on their own without needing AMS. AMS just makes a bad weapon even worse which is again unacceptable. But now its making other missiles weapons even worse too without any justification. Were SRMs/MRMs dominating the game so much that they really needed to be nerfed? lol.

not sure why people think AMS should let them wade out into the open and be invulnerable to missiles. AMS only weighs like 1.5 tons it should not hard counter dozens of tons of LRM launchers. Thats dumb. AMS should only be a weak soft counter to missiles at most.

Quite frankly the game would be better off without AMS entirely at this point. Since PGI seems utterly incapable of balancing missile weapons properly around the existence of AMS.

Edited by Khobai, 20 March 2019 - 01:16 PM.

[Prototelis]

Khobai, on 19 March 2019 - 04:58 PM, said:

and SRMs/MRMs were already bad weapons,

Fake news.

Edited by Prototelis, 20 March 2019 - 03:08 PM.

[Khobai]

Prototelis, on 20 March 2019 - 01:16 PM, said:

Fake news.

show me proof that SRMs/MRMs were so dominant they needed to be nerfed.

if you are going to call something fake news you need to back it up with supporting evidence.

the truth is SRMs/MRMs have always been below average weapons for several reasons. lack of range/velocity, bad damage spread, bad synergy when fired in combination with other weapons like lasers, utterly dumb ghost heat limits (why are SRM6s limited to 4? thats pathetic compared to ATMs), hitreg issues, etc...

so no. they really dont need to be countered harder by AMS. its almost like PGI is admitting they cant balance other weapons so they just want everyone to use the only weapon they consider balanced: lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 20 March 2019 - 01:29 PM.

[Major Malfunktion]

These health reductions make absolutely no sense whatsoever... a ton of SRM missiles is exactly the same whether it is used in a 2, 4, or 6 launcher - so how come they magically have less health per missile depending on the launcher (and MRMs are even worse).

It is complete and utter garbage, and whoever came up with the idea clearly has no idea what they are doing.

[Prototelis]

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

show me proof that SRMs/MRMs were so dominant they needed to be nerfed.

Show me proof you play the game.

Srms and mrms are p.good.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

show me proof that SRMs/MRMs were so dominant they needed to be nerfed.

if you are going to call something fake news you need to back it up with supporting evidence.

the truth is SRMs/MRMs have always been below average weapons for several reasons. lack of range/velocity, bad damage spread, bad synergy when fired in combination with other weapons like lasers, utterly dumb ghost heat limits (why are SRM6s limited to 4? thats pathetic compared to ATMs), hitreg issues, etc...

Well his supporting evidence would most likely be - he plays the game.

What it your evidence? 20,000 forum posts with barely any in-game time at all? Where time and time again you've made comments without one iota of evidence/fact/truth behind them?

I think I know who I'm gonna listen to.


Anyway SRMs and MRMs were FINE before the patch. cSRM6 perhaps the only outlier due to spread. We've used SRMs are the highest tier of MWO (over Pulse Lasers) and they work, and work well. Again that is coming from supporting evidence of - wait for it - I PLAY THE GAME.

MRMs are not amazing at the highest level of play, but they never will be simple because of what they are as a weapon type. That said they are awesome fun for SoloQ / FP and even some Solaris builds can work MRMs in amazingly well.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 20 March 2019 - 02:42 PM.

[zerosouL]

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 01:02 PM, said:

that is false. LRMs cannot hit you without LoS. If you are getting hit with LRMs its either because someone on the other team has LoS to you, someone on the other team had LoS to you and hit you with a NARC, or a UAV has LoS to you and your team isnt shooting down UAVs. Unless someone on the other team has LoS on you, you cannot get hit by indirect LRMs. Indirect LRMs dont remove the LoS requirement, they simply allow other mechs/narc/uavs on their team to provide the LoS instead. If you dont want to get hit by LRMs stay out of LoS when your weapons are on cooldown. Its not a hard thing to do.

Typical potato logic. Tell me how to cuve lasers/ballistics around the cover then. Its not about how to dodge/avoid LRMs. We're talking about mechs firing over obstacles without any direct LOS on you. Direct means their own LOS. There are plenty of ways to get an indirect lockon like you mentioned and thats what AMS is for. The end.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 20 March 2019 - 02:41 PM, said:

Well his supporting evidence would most likely be - he plays the game.

What it your evidence? 20,000 forum posts with barely any in-game time at all? Where time and time again you've made comments without one iota of evidence/fact/truth behind them?

I think I know who I'm gonna listen to.


Anyway SRMs and MRMs were FINE before the patch. cSRM6 perhaps the only outlier due to spread. We've used SRMs are the highest tier of MWO (over Pulse Lasers) and they work, and work well. Again that is coming from supporting evidence of - wait for it - I PLAY THE GAME.

MRMs are not amazing at the highest level of play, but they never will be simple because of what they are as a weapon type. That said they are awesome fun for SoloQ / FP and even some Solaris builds can work MRMs in amazingly well.

so basically he has no proof and neither do you. just your standard tactic of deflecting and resorting to personal attacks because you cant formulate an actual argument. You cant even come up with any new material, its literally just you repeating yourself that I havent played any games on this account despite being told countless times that I havent played on this account for years because I have a second account. Which leads one to conclude youre either incredibly dumb or deliberately trolling. Neither of which helps your case.

furthermore youre just agreeing with me while trying to make it look like youre simultaneously disagreeing with me. which is hilarious. because I literally said the same thing you did, that SRMs and MRMs werent amazing weapons. Again there really was NO reason to nerf them. They werent overperforming in any area of the game.

and SRMs do sometimes get used at the highest levels of play, but not because theyre good, but rather because theres not a whole lot of other options for lighter mechs at this point (thanks to pulse laser nerfs, lack of low weight ballistic options, and various other factors). as mechs increase in tonnage they stop using SRMs for a reason, because they have the tonnage for better weapons. Being forced to use a suboptimal weapon for lack of better options is NOT the same thing as it being good. If lights/mediums had access to all the options heavy and assaults do they would never have to use SRMs. To truly be viable weapons SRMs need to do a hell of a lot more damage given their spread, 270m range limit, and the fact they can be shot down easily by AMS now.

zerosouL, on 20 March 2019 - 02:48 PM, said:

Typical potato logic. Tell me how to cuve lasers/ballistics around the cover then. Its not about how to dodge/avoid LRMs. We're talking about mechs firing over obstacles without any direct LOS on you. Direct means their own LOS. There are plenty of ways to get an indirect lockon like you mentioned and thats what AMS is for. The end.

its not potato logic lol. its how LRMs work. someone on the enemy team needs to have LoS on you for indirect LRMs to work. if you stay out of LoS of the enemy team you will never get hit with indirect LRMs. that is a fact. Theres a reason the meta revolves around alphastrike loadouts that do maximum damage with minimum exposure. Because staying out of LoS isnt just good for avoiding LRMs its good for avoiding all weapons.

and while there are plenty of ways to get an indirect lockon every single one of them involves having LoS. It is not possible to lockon to someone with LRMs unless someone on your team can see them. Period. You either need direct LoS, LoS to narc them, LoS with a UAV, or LoS to TAG them to break ECM. What do all those have in common? LoS.

the only potato logic here is that you feel 1.5 tons of AMS should hard counter dozens of tons of LRMs because you dont know how to properly use cover to break LoS. And no we really dont need stronger AMS, what we need is for people to learn how to play the game properly, and not stand out in the open getting hit by LRMs and expecting AMS to protect them. PGI should have like an LRM dodging tutorial or something. I dont know why they dont.

Edited by Khobai, 20 March 2019 - 03:38 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 02:57 PM, said:

so basically he has no proof and neither do you.

Proof of what? That SRM/MRMs were bad BEFORE the value change - like you claimed?

I just gave you the proof - we used them, regularly, at the highest level of play in MWO. If that is not PROOF they are a good/viable weapon system well... Well... You're just being your usual contrarian self.

You said they were below average.

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

the truth is SRMs/MRMs have always been below average weapons for several reasons.

There is no "truth" there. That is just your uneducated opinion talking.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 20 March 2019 - 03:05 PM.

[MischiefSC]

There absolutely is "truth" in SRMs and MRMs being effective.

That proof is reflected in leaderboards for solo, comp, Solaris and FW. What works best rises to the top.

SRMs and MRMs have been used heavily on maps that lend themselves to short/mid range engagement. SRMs are and have been a brawling staple for everything and has been for a while, QP to comp, IS or Clan. Only exception was when SPLs were dominant for a bit.

MRMs for IS mechs fill a strong mid to brawl role and push decks with one of the best DPS for the heat options the IS has. It's not something you see as much in comp because that mid range role is generally better served by laservomit like an HBK, or at least was 2 years ago. However for IS in FW for mid to brawl maps and teams MRMs are a staple and used to great success. Also strong performers in Solaris, several top 10 division players use MRMs. One easy example was the Vindi.

So, in short, the proof is actual success and successful players in the game.

[Monkey Lover]

justcallme A S H, on 20 March 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

Proof of what? That SRM/MRMs were bad BEFORE the value change - like you claimed?

.

What is good anymore? Cant really fall back on the small or spl. Everything is kind of "blah" anymore for brawling.

[Khobai]

Monkey Lover, on 20 March 2019 - 05:22 PM, said:

What is good anymore? Cant really fall back on the small or spl. Everything is kind of "blah" anymore for brawling.

exactly.

being forced to use a "meh" weapon for lack of a better option does not make it a good weapon. at least somebody here understands that. a weapon doesnt suddenly become good just because its the least worst choice in a string of subpar choices. Because its still ultimately subpar.

and there are good weapons in the game, and for the most part none of the good weapons are brawling weapons. brawling weapons in general just dont do enough damage to justify the extra risk added exposure of closing the distance to the enemy. Its even worse now that SRMs get obliterated by AMS. And no one has explained to me why it was so necessary to nerf SRMs.

MischiefSC, on 20 March 2019 - 04:01 PM, said:

SRMs and MRMs have been used heavily on maps that lend themselves to short/mid range engagement

SRMs and MRMs are primarily used on light/medium mechs, that dont have the tonnage to take heavier weapons like autocannons/gauss, and are forced to compromise and pick the least worst options from a pool of bad options. The only reason light/medium mechs even get used in competitive play is because teams are FORCED to take them. If teams had a choice of what mechs to take they would take all heavies/assaults and you would almost never see SRMs/MRMs get used at all.

And to be fair I wasnt really including solaris in my assessment of SRMs/MRMs since its a bad gamemode. But I will admit that SRMs/MRMs are better in solaris because of the close range nature of the fights and the very fact its much easier to close the distance against 1-2 enemy mechs compared to 12 enemy mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 20 March 2019 - 07:52 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 07:31 PM, said:

The only reason light/medium mechs even get used in competitive play is because teams are FORCED to take them. If teams had a choice of what mechs to take they would take all heavies/assaults and you would almost never see SRMs/MRMs get used at all.

....what... what are you talking about? You're somewhere else.... stop. please.

Prototelis, on 20 March 2019 - 02:27 PM, said:

Show me proof you play the game.

Why is there only one like per person? I wanna give all my likes to this.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 07:31 PM, said:

exactly.

being forced to use a "meh" weapon for lack of a better option does not make it a good weapon. at least somebody here understands that. a weapon doesnt suddenly become good just because its the least worst choice in a string of subpar choices. Because its still ultimately subpar.

and there are good weapons in the game, and for the most part none of the good weapons are brawling weapons. brawling weapons in general just dont do enough damage to justify the extra risk added exposure of closing the distance to the enemy. Its even worse now that SRMs get obliterated by AMS. And no one has explained to me why it was so necessary to nerf SRMs.



SRMs and MRMs are primarily used on light/medium mechs, that dont have the tonnage to take heavier weapons like autocannons/gauss, and are forced to compromise and pick the least worst options from a pool of bad options. The only reason light/medium mechs even get used in competitive play is because teams are FORCED to take them. If teams had a choice of what mechs to take they would take all heavies/assaults and you would almost never see SRMs/MRMs get used at all.

And to be fair I wasnt really including solaris in my assessment of SRMs/MRMs since its a bad gamemode. But I will admit that SRMs/MRMs are better in solaris because of the close range nature of the fights and the very fact its much easier to close the distance against 1-2 enemy mechs compared to 12 enemy mechs.

That's not true at all. For example the Splatclops is a ******* beast. With SRMs or MRMs. Ever seen a Scorch? Plenty of IS and Clan heavies run SRMs. Like, say, Linebacker. Roughneck is a IS staple with SRMs or MRMs. Splat builds tend to be big alpha, core brawl builds because they free up tonnage for speed on heavies and even assaults vs, say, 4xlb10x and generally have 2x or more the alpha.

I don't know if you just don't play or if you just don't play vs or with anyone good but QP, GQ and FW all have tons of SRM and MRM usage unless it's a range map. Full stop. Sure there's plenty of ballistic options but Linebacker rush is a god damn meme. Same with Roughneck and Bushwhackers, all leaning on SRMs and MRMs. The ability to puke out 70+ damage at 16+DPS for 29 heat at 6.73 heat/sec on a Roughneck at 80+kph or 77.4 alpha LBK, at 20.64 DPS, 22.5 heat, just 6 heat/sec at 97 kph are always going to be strong and have a place.

You're flat out wrong. SRMs and MRMs have a strong place in every queue but, arguably, comp and have a lot of use by top tier players and teams. Nerfing them by gutting missile health just reduces genuinely viable builds and diversity and doesn't add anything.

Missile health needs a buff back up, especially SRMs and MRMs.

[Khobai]

MischiefSC, on 20 March 2019 - 08:12 PM, said:

Plenty of IS and Clan heavies run SRMs. Like, say, Linebacker.

To be fair the linebacker is hardly representative of most heavies though. In fact its an oddity. It doesnt have the tonnage that a regular clan heavy does so of course it has to rely on lighter tonnage weapons like SRMs.

Would linebackers still use SRMs if they had the tonnage to use better weapons? Nope. Thats why you dont see Ebon Jaguars using SRMs for example. The Ebon Jaguar is the same exact tonnage as the Linebacker, it has missile omnipods too, but people dont put SRMs on it because it has the tonnage for heavier weapons. The only other heavy you see people put SRMs on regularly is the Orion IIC because its 3M 2E 1B hardpoints essentially force it to use SRMs. Theres not really any better options for those M hardpoints.

The linebacker is another case of a mech being forced to use SRMs because it HAS TO. Again just because youre forced to take a weapon doesnt necessarily mean that weapon is good. It just means its the least worst of the options available to you. SRMs are mostly a compromise weapon, you take them because you have to take them due to tonnage or hardpoint limits, not because theyre your #1 weapon pick. There are way better weapons than SRMs.

You almost never see SRMs on clan heavies and assaults. If you do its only on purpose-built brawlers like the Orion or Scorch which have hardpoints that dont make sense for anything BUT SRMs. Nobody puts SRMs on scorch because they WANT TO, they put SRMs on Scorch because they HAVE TO. Theyre the least bad option for those M hardpoints. And Orion/Scorch arnt really dominating the meta last I checked. They certainly arnt overperforming compared to Hellbringers or MadcatMK2s.

Once again SRMs didnt need to be nerfed. Theres absolutely no evidence that SRMs were overperforming at all.

Edited by Khobai, 20 March 2019 - 10:32 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 10:14 PM, said:

To be fair the linebacker is hardly representative of most heavies though. In fact its an oddity. It doesnt have the tonnage that a regular clan heavy does so of course it has to rely on lighter tonnage weapons like SRMs.

Would linebackers still use SRMs if they had the tonnage to use better weapons? Nope. Thats why you dont see Ebon Jaguars using SRMs for example. The Ebon Jaguar is the same exact tonnage as the Linebacker, it has missile omnipods too, but people dont put SRMs on it because it has the tonnage for heavier weapons. The only other heavy you see people put SRMs on regularly is the Orion IIC because its 3M 2E 1B hardpoints essentially force it to use SRMs. Theres not really any better options for those M hardpoints.

The linebacker is another case of a mech being forced to use SRMs because it HAS TO. Again just because youre forced to take a weapon doesnt necessarily mean that weapon is good. It just means its the least worst of the options available to you. SRMs are mostly a compromise weapon, you take them because you have to take them due to tonnage or hardpoint limits, not because theyre your #1 weapon pick. There are way better weapons than SRMs.

You almost never see SRMs on clan heavies and assaults. If you do its only on purpose-built brawlers like the Orion or Scorch which have hardpoints that dont make sense for anything BUT SRMs. Nobody puts SRMs on scorch because they WANT TO, they put SRMs on Scorch because they HAVE TO. Theyre the least bad option for those M hardpoints. And Orion/Scorch arnt really dominating the meta last I checked. They certainly arnt overperforming compared to Hellbringers or MadcatMK2s.

Once again SRMs didnt need to be nerfed. Theres absolutely no evidence that SRMs were overperforming at all.

LBKs would still be strongest with a 77 pt alpha, 21 DPS, running nearly 100kph and armor quirks.

Yes, without question.

Do you think nobody has EBJs or TBRs or the rest?

Scorch has energy hardpoints. Did you know that? However taking the bigger ballistics and the high alpha, reasonable heat SRMs punches better. If a Scorch has more free tonnage people would take bigger missiles - not lasers.

That you don't understand that the SRM side of an Orion is the dangerous bit is part of why you don't get this conversation. MKIIs don't run SRMs because they fill another role and they're not the best choice for Clans in that tonnage range for brawling.

Clans run less SRMs than IS because Clans tend to have better range loadout options and are squishy.

You just don't seem to get this at all. No, SRMs were not over performing, they were in a good place and doing a good job of it. Nobody good at this game would say SRMs and MRMs are bad. If a team/players prefer range trade then they'd likely use them less. I play with the most successful brawl players in the game though. Hands down. If you tried to tell them SRMs and MRMs are bad they'd laugh at you. You pur MLs on a Roughneck because you have the E hardpoints. No serious Roughneck pilot wouldn't gleefully trade the Es for Ms, save on the A2.

The only reason the LBK is an exception is because it's got speed, armor quirks and missile hardpoints. You can deck an LBK out for energy. It's a waste though because for brawl, the splat is better. The Splat TBR was the best brawler for Clans until its mobility went to ****. Even over the MPL boat one, even with CMPLs were strong.

A 70+ damage heat manageable alpha with a DPS close to 20 generally beats the ballistic options, save on 1lthe biggest assaults - mostly due to mobility. Give me a 100 ton Clan mech with armor quirks, decent mobility and 8 energy, 8 ballistic and 8 missile hardpoint variants. You'd have an energy one for trading, ignore the ballistic (unless its got higher mounts or perks vs KDK3 and Ultraviolet) and the missile one would be the optimal brawler.

Because for brawling SRMs and in FW MRMs on certain setups are ideal over all other options. We have Jags, 3B Roughnecks, Shads, Fafnirs, ballistic and energy options along the spectrum. Best brawlers tend to be mixed ballistic (often MG/hmg if you've got a lot of B slots) and missiles.

[Dee Eight]

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 01:02 PM, said:

that is false. LRMs cannot hit you without LoS.

ACTUALLY THAT STATEMENT IS FALSE.

LRMs cannot be guided without line of sight having come from somewhere at some point...the uav, someone else providing the lock, etc. They will hit mechs just fine though without there ever having been LOS to the mech if they're unguided though. They're simply like junk mail addressed to "occupant" or "to whom it may concern". Because of the missile spread and the ability to dead fire them at a point on the map, it is easy to hit mechs behind cover aiming just above, behind, or in front of where they're standing and still get hits on them. I do it all the time in faction warfare, just raining fire down across ridge lines hitting people thinking their advancing safely under cover. Actually because LRMs now default to firing in line of sight to the map edges, instead of only hitting mechs within oh 10 meters of a terrain edge when you'd have an indirect flight path, you can now hit them a good hundred meters back.

[zerosouL]

LOL this dude just doesnt know when to quit. Forum Warrior Online ftw KHOBAI

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 19 March 2019 - 04:58 PM, said:

and SRMs/MRMs were already bad weapons, did they really need to make them weaker vs AMS? Whats the point of that?

Wut?

Seriously? If anything the SRMs and MRMs are the solid missile weapon systems.

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 10:14 PM, said:

To be fair the linebacker is hardly representative of most heavies though. In fact its an oddity. It doesnt have the tonnage that a regular clan heavy does so of course it has to rely on lighter tonnage weapons like SRMs.

Would linebackers still use SRMs if they had the tonnage to use better weapons? Nope.

You mean Linebackers having the tonnage to do laser-vomit and medium-pulses? likewise ERPPCs? Define "better".

As far as I'm concerned, it's not because it doesn't have the tonnage, but it has a role that it plays best, which makes it about the mech, not the weapon system.

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 10:14 PM, said:

You almost never see SRMs on clan heavies and assaults. If you do its only on purpose-built brawlers like the Orion or Scorch which have hardpoints that dont make sense for anything BUT SRMs.

You don't see heavy-gauss-rifles on Lights, are they bad weapons? That's a poor way to measure viability. Mechs are geared towards a certain role which would allow certain builds to play better.

And why wouldn't you put SRMs on a brawler? I mean yes you could get SPLs and MLs for laser-brawling, but come on , brawling is the point of SRMs considering the niche they fit. What kind of argument is that, you might as well argue that "you only ever see ink when someone wants to write on a piece of paper".

Khobai, on 20 March 2019 - 10:14 PM, said:

Nobody puts SRMs on scorch because they WANT TO, they put SRMs on Scorch because they HAVE TO. Theyre the least bad option for those M hardpoints. And Orion/Scorch arnt really dominating the meta last I checked. They certainly arnt overperforming compared to Hellbringers or MadcatMK2s.

Here we go with the "Nobody". You're not the only player in the game. You could also just as well mix UAC10s with LRMS/ATMs. Works fine with the MAD-IIC-D, I don't see why it won't work with Scorch.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 March 2019 - 05:08 AM.

[dwwolf]

Because its now useless to take 2 or 2 launchers. Dont bother mixing them with other weapons.

Edited by dwwolf, 21 March 2019 - 05:54 AM.