164 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Doesn't matter if we talked about lasers, ballistics or the current top topic missiles.

The core issues is always the same: boating.

When PGI needs to balance things those balances always have to happen towards the most unbalanced combinations. Which nearly Always is/was boating.
This on the other side always affects mechs with mixed combinatons

I mean look at the current missile discussion.

In noobland LRM's were problem because of massive boating.
MRM's in nearly absurd builds like MRM 120 Fafnirs is pretty much a boating issue to the max.
Now PGI adjusted ams to no be useless and we have the next issue: AMS boating.

ghost heat to some degree helped against huge alpha strikes, yet it doesn't prevent boating with timed shots. But ghost heat did at least not affect mixed builds as these are not affected.

But the missile vs AMS discussion, how do we make AMS not useless without not making it's boating OP? How could we even make missiles not useless against AMS boating, while not making boating missiles unbalanced against non AMS mechs.

What if PGI made PPC's temporarily disable AMS? would that actually bring bigger boats to equipping a PPC as well, and reducing the boatability? But then what about M only mechs?

We cannot really always blame PGI for the things that happe, the chassis their configs and such they are an unbalanceable mess.

Well, maybe PGI could add a kind of "hitchance" for AMS, where each shot has a % to hit a missile in the air, and the more missiles there are the more likely a shot would hit one. That way boats get more missiles shot down but small salvos will still get some through reliably. Basically, AMS would act as a classical flak, shooting in the general direction of a missiles swarm and the more missiles there are the more likely is it to take one down. otherwise I see no chance how smaller mixed missile using mechs ever get some missiles through. probably won't solve the issues as well, but in the end:

How do we balance boating of any weapon or system at all?

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 March 2019 - 04:13 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Boating was always a part of BattleTech. If you don't like boating, move on to a different game. MWO already does way more to reduce boating than any other BT/MW game in existence.

[Racerxintegra2k]

Lily from animove, on 21 March 2019 - 03:59 AM, said:

How do we balance boating of any weapon or system at all?

You don't. Boating similar weapon systems is the most effective way to kill your enemy. This is a FPS most efficient way to kill will always be the main objective.

[Gagis]

Racerxintegra2k, on 21 March 2019 - 04:33 AM, said:

You don't. Boating similar weapon systems is the most effective way to kill your enemy. This is a FPS most efficient way to kill will always be the main objective.

It's even the most effective approach on tabletop Battletech and HBS Battletech too.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Lily from animove, on 21 March 2019 - 03:59 AM, said:

How do we balance boating of any weapon or system at all?

Why is this even a discussion? Boating weapon types is not the issue. Play-style is the issue. Boating LRMs wasn't the problem. Hiding behind and doing massive damage was. Boating AMS isn't the issue 'cause you give up a lot of tonnage. Most mechs can use only 1 AMS as is. The others that can "boat" AMS are light or medium mechs and they need to give up firepower to do it. Besides, AMS only deals with LRMs or MRMs if they are coming from a long way away. Stay at 300m and launch your missile volleys and you will do good damage. The problem mainly is for ATM and MRM users but most ATM. PGI just needs to make AMS not shoot through solid objects that's all.

[RickySpanish]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 March 2019 - 04:33 AM, said:

Boating was always a part of BattleTech. If you don't like boating, move on to a different game. MWO already does way more to reduce boating than any other BT/MW game in existence.

Mech4 was on to something with combined hardpoint location and size, but I don't think boating is really a bad thing. Kitchen sink builds are not really any better for the game imo.

[Sigmar Sich]

At this point in time - we don't. Game is too old to change its core design. Time was wasted.

If we could travel back in time, there are two ideas i like:

1) Sized hardpoints. So you couldn't squize an AC/20 instead of AC/2, and large lasers instead of small ones. Also helps mechs to retain their personality, being somewhat similar to a stock loadout pattern.

2) Zone specific quirks. For example an old Large laser, or whatever, quirk on the Thunderbolt. It would work only for the weapon equipped in the arm, where it was in the stock loadout. It wouldn't work for more large lasers in the torso.

[PhoenixFire55]

RickySpanish, on 21 March 2019 - 04:50 AM, said:

Mech4 was on to something with combined hardpoint location and size, but I don't think boating is really a bad thing. Kitchen sink builds are not really any better for the game imo.

LOL? ... The same Mech4 that allowed you to substitute one big gun with half a dozen smaller ones? Or the same Mech4 that allowed you to boat whatever you wanted in the "omni" hardpoints, like 16 LRM5s on the DireWolf?

k.

[Lily from animove]

Dunno but within the last 2 years you really developed a rather sh*tty attitude.

Boating is the core problem which causes most balance issues. And that topic has nothing to do with what I like d what not. An no other Mechwarriors haven't caused such massive boating because the heatscale there mostly prevent what MWO allows, especially MW3 where most actions you see ingame nowdays would make you instagib by going over the allowed heat. And funnily MW3 had not even any hardpoint restrictions. So you could boat much harder there by config possibilities. But the heatsytsem didn't gave that a working System.

@Fragtastic doing massive damage with LRM boats was only in noobtown a problem, because those people never had a playstyle to prevent lrm's from hitting them. If we had Maps like in MW3 I would understand that because there were kilometers of open area, but even polar highland has enough lrm preventing areas. And I doubt you tried srm's at 300m vs a 3AMS mech. because srm's are the most shafted missiles atm unless you wanna hug the one you shoot at.

[Wil McCullough]

Lily from animove, on 21 March 2019 - 05:05 AM, said:

Dunno but within the last 2 years you really developed a rather sh*tty attitude.

Boating is the core problem which causes most balance issues. And that topic has nothing to do with what I like d what not. An no other Mechwarriors haven't caused such massive boating because the heatscale there mostly prevent what MWO allows, especially MW3 where most actions you see ingame nowdays would make you instagib by going over the allowed heat. And funnily MW3 had not even any hardpoint restrictions. So you could boat much harder there by config possibilities. But the heatsytsem didn't gave that a working System.

@Fragtastic doing massive damage with LRM boats was only in noobtown a problem, because those people never had a playstyle to prevent lrm's from hitting them. If we had Maps like in MW3 I would understand that because there were kilometers of open area, but even polar highland has enough lrm preventing areas. And I doubt you tried srm's at 300m vs a 3AMS mech. because srm's are the most shafted missiles atm unless you wanna hug the one you shoot at.

I would argue that boating simplifies weapon balance rather than cause balance problems. It's easier to tell what the problem is if ml/lpl vomit outperforms everything or lrm80 or quad gauss or goose peeps etc.

Much easier to identify the problem weapon and address the issue than trying to figure out what exactly is op when everyone is running frankenstein builds. Can you imagine the balance nightmare if for example, lore timber primes started dominating?

[eminus]

the only way I can see how to balance boating

[FRAGTAST1C]

Lily from animove, on 21 March 2019 - 05:05 AM, said:

@Fragtastic doing massive damage with LRM boats was only in noobtown a problem, because those people never had a playstyle to prevent lrm's from hitting them. If we had Maps like in MW3 I would understand that because there were kilometers of open area, but even polar highland has enough lrm preventing areas. And I doubt you tried srm's at 300m vs a 3AMS mech. because srm's are the most shafted missiles atm unless you wanna hug the one you shoot at.

SRMs have, what, 270m optimal range? And you fire at 3AMS mech? Well, of course the missiles are going to get eaten up. That's what is supposed to happen. When you say the LRMs are only a problem in lower tiers is you trying to have the cake and eat it, too, unless of course you're saying that you couldn't do enough damage with LRM-only mechs even before this patch.

[Ilfi]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 March 2019 - 04:53 AM, said:

LOL? ... The same Mech4 that allowed you to substitute one big gun with half a dozen smaller ones? Or the same Mech4 that allowed you to boat whatever you wanted in the "omni" hardpoints, like 16 LRM5s on the DireWolf?

Please respect MW4's MechLab balance. Back in my day we had Black Lanners with 11 Inferno SRM4s and lasers to boot; now all we have are Black Lanners that can barely fit 11 Small Lasers. It's a sick sad world these days.

[Trevor Devalis]

Boating has specialized purposes. Generalized builds can be good but never as good as boats in their element. Sometimes, I like to play a more generalized build so I can adding fire at any range and it feels like I'm contributing. But boating weapons has the advantage of doing more damage in a set range that will outdo any generalized build. That's fine. Me, I hate more than 3 weapon systems. I have a mouse with 4 buttons, but can really only use 2 or occassionally I can be comfortable enough to use number 3. The keyboard I will use for 3, as long as it isn't rapid fire weapons, and 4 for lock on weapons, if I really, absolutely have to. So I forgo the lore build I love in TT and even HBS BT that works well for me because on here, I cannot keep up with that many weapons and all those different ranges.

[Yiryi-Sa]

Lily from animove, on 21 March 2019 - 03:59 AM, said:

Now PGI adjusted ams to no be useless and we have the next issue: AMS boating.

You're conflating inflation of it's use on the field to "boating." Most mechs can only fit one AMS, while the new Corsair 7A can field four, so it's relatively novel and won't likely last.

[Lotspeech]

Can someone please make an argument in this thread? this page doesnt make any sense...

[FRAGTAST1C]

kamichiwa343, on 21 March 2019 - 06:01 AM, said:

Can someone please make an argument in this thread? this page doesnt make any sense...

What has happened is, someone has gone full "soap opera" and decided that AMS range and missile hp change means PGI needs to balance EVERYTHING. That's just basically what happens in RL when someone doesn't think for a few minutes about what is actually happening as opposed to what THEY think is happening.

[Samriis]

There is something that can be done about boating... replace AMS hardpoints with AWS or Anti Weapon Systems.

There would be 3 AWS systems, one of which, the AMS, already exists. The 2 additional systems would be for Ballistic and Laser or, ABS, and ALS.

The mechanics of the systems would be a simple implementation. Each system would have ammo, just like the AMS and would trigger after a hit has been registered but before damage has been calculated. Each system would, like AMS, reduce a specific amount of damage per second and would be balanced against the existing damage reduction values for AMS.

Tonnage and size of the systems can be argued as well as any possible heat that would be generated but implementing this would force players to build more varied builds as they could run up against an opponent that has directly countered their build.

[eminus]

Samriis, on 21 March 2019 - 06:16 AM, said:

There is something that can be done about boating... replace AMS hardpoints with AWS or Anti Weapon Systems.

There would be 3 AWS systems, one of which, the AMS, already exists. The 2 additional systems would be for Ballistic and Laser or, ABS, and ALS.

The mechanics of the systems would be a simple implementation. Each system would have ammo, just like the AMS and would trigger after a hit has been registered but before damage has been calculated. Each system would, like AMS, reduce a specific amount of damage per second and would be balanced against the existing damage reduction values for AMS.

Tonnage and size of the systems can be argued as well as any possible heat that would be generated but implementing this would force players to build more varied builds as they could run up against an opponent that has directly countered their build.

What is ALS(Anti LAser System)? made up of mirrors?

[FRAGTAST1C]

Samriis, on 21 March 2019 - 06:16 AM, said:

There is something that can be done about boating... replace AMS hardpoints with AWS or Anti Weapon Systems.

There would be 3 AWS systems, one of which, the AMS, already exists. The 2 additional systems would be for Ballistic and Laser or, ABS, and ALS.

The mechanics of the systems would be a simple implementation. Each system would have ammo, just like the AMS and would trigger after a hit has been registered but before damage has been calculated. Each system would, like AMS, reduce a specific amount of damage per second and would be balanced against the existing damage reduction values for AMS.

Tonnage and size of the systems can be argued as well as any possible heat that would be generated but implementing this would force players to build more varied builds as they could run up against an opponent that has directly countered their build.

Hahahahahaha good one. Wait, you aren't being serious, right?