171 replies to this topic

[kuma8877]

Nightbird, on 28 March 2019 - 07:03 AM, said:

Which is fine since everyone who cares this early on has a pre-order, otherwise have fun on Epic

The new Metro game got Steam keys for the preorders because the customers made a huge stink about it, others like the X-com derivitive game that was crowdfunded (specifically for Steam and GOG keys) will NOT be available on Steam for anyone for a year, then the backers get their Steam keys... There are no hard and fast rules for this new console war.

[MeiSooHaityu]

kuma8877, on 28 March 2019 - 07:12 AM, said:

...There are no hard and fast rules for this new console war.

I see the Epic/Valve store slugfest compared to console exclusives, but to me, it feels way more absurd than that.

In some ways it's better. I mean, if you have a PC, you can still get these games if you really want to commit to an account/launcher.

The way it feels absurd is because I think the more fair comparison is this...

Imagine having to buy a physical copy of a game at a specific store. Say you have a PS4. You want God of War...Well, it is only sold at Costco and now you need to sign up for a Costco membership to buy it in person or buy it online. Now you want Spider Man?..Can't get it at Costco, you need to sign up at Sam's Club for Spiderman and buy it there. Want Gran Turismo, that's on Amazon only...And on and on...

If I had a PS4, I'd want to go to a store and be able to buy any of the PS4 games currently being sold on the market at that location. I wouldn't want to have to go to an individual store for an individual game.

That is why the idea just seems absurd to me. Console exclusives I can at least understand, but store exclusives where a library is fragmented and shuffled around just seems bizarre to me.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 28 March 2019 - 07:35 AM.

[Dark Wooki33 IIC]

MeiSooHaityu, on 28 March 2019 - 07:33 AM, said:

The way it feels absurd is because I think the more fair comparison is this...

Imagine having to buy a physical copy of a game at a specific store. Say you have a PS4. You want God of War...Well, it is only sold at Costco and now you need to sign up for a Costco membership to buy it in person or buy it online. Now you want Spider Man?..Can't get it at Costco, you need to sign up at Sam's Club for Spiderman and buy it there. Want Gran Turismo, that's on Amazon only...And on and on...

If I had a PS4, I'd want to go to a store and be able to buy any of the PS4 games currently being sold on the market at that location. I wouldn't want to have to go to an individual store for an individual game.

That is why the idea just seems absurd to me. Console exclusives I can at least understand, but store exclusives where a library is fragmented and shuffled around just seems bizarre to me.

^So much this.

Btw. does anyone remember the original dragon age launch? you would get different ingame goodies for buying it in different stores. That was some first grade nonsense ******** already ... and the future will be even more ********.

Edit: Exlusives are always nonsense, even on scummy consoles.

Edited by Dark Wooki33 IIC, 28 March 2019 - 08:33 AM.

[Nightbird]

Forget your moral arguments. Exclusives only make business sense for franchises that have a huge following, that can make people follow them to a new store. It's pointless for MW which has no such draw, Epic/Valve/any store wouldn't pay PGI anything to make MW5 exclusive nor would PGI be able to regain the revenue lost from customers due to visibility caused by stocking at only one store.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Dark Wooki33 IIC, on 28 March 2019 - 08:32 AM, said:

^So much this.

Btw. does anyone remember the original dragon age launch? you would get different ingame goodies for buying it in different stores. That was some first grade nonsense ******** already ... and the future will be even more ********.

Edit: Exlusives are always nonsense, even on scummy consoles.

I remember stores doing this, but none so vividly as Gamestop. They were notorious for advertising bonus maps, skins, etc... for purchasing the game at their store. It was BS, however I sort of wish Epic did this to drum up business instead of just taking entire games outright.

Nightbird, on 28 March 2019 - 08:44 AM, said:

Forget your moral arguments. Exclusives only make business sense for franchises that have a huge following, that can make people follow them to a new store. It's pointless for MW which has no such draw, Epic/Valve/any store wouldn't pay PGI anything to make MW5 exclusive nor would PGI be able to regain the revenue lost from customers due to visibility caused by stocking at only one store.

Not really. There have been quite a few exclusives to the Epic Store that weren't huge titles. Games like Rebel Galaxy: Outlaw, Phoenix Point and Satisfactory are a few that went exclusive and yet don't have a huge following.

One could even argue that MechWarrior has decades of name recognition where those titles above don't.

As for lost revenue...Phoenix Point said they could refund all the backer's money from Kickstarter, and they would still be fine. I have a feeling that when Epic buys an exclusive, they really open the wallet to the point that lost sales are negligible (especially with the more favorable cost model to publishers).

It doesn't factor in negative fan response however.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 28 March 2019 - 08:59 AM.

[JediPanther]

If I can't get the game on steam guess pgi won't get my money. Guess that claim of full steam workshop support was just more of their bs marketing or planed and once implimented-feature-remove-because-we-can. *cough* ik *cough* knock down *cough *hack fraction/role warfare* Ugh I need more coke and rum.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Most of the games that are going epic exclusive are only doing so for a year, so its like the opposite of early access - instead of paying now for a unfinished buggy game you can pay a year afterwards when its on a platform you like and has had multiple bug patches.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Xeno Phalcon, on 28 March 2019 - 09:20 AM, said:

Most of the games that are going epic exclusive are only doing so for a year, so its like the opposite of early access - instead of paying now for a unfinished buggy game you can pay a year afterwards when its on a platform you like and has had multiple bug patches.

If there is a positive anywhere to be seen, that would be it lol.

[MischiefSC]

I'm a big fan of Steam having competition. They take 30% of revenue and provide **** all 0 support for game developers. We literally get more and better support from PGI about issues with MWO than you would get from Steam for issues with the Steam client if you were a game developer selling a game through the Steam storefront.

Think about that.

Steam isn't who they used to be by any stretch. We need good competition to Steam. Steam has a big market share and gates access to it by skimming 1/3rd of all sales profits up front. You absolutely do NOT get to sell your game 100% independently and give Steam keys for free. You are allowed to 'judiciously' give Steam keys to your game if you also sell it on Steam but they reserve the right to shut that option down if you're just trying to use their platform but not give them money.

Not sure Epic is it but I'm happy to cheer for them taking on Valve and pushing that space out a bit. Not a fan of exclusives but Steam has a huge amount of money and resources and a warchest of patents that makes creating a viable competitive game distribution channel a risky and expensive proposition.

Nightbird, on 28 March 2019 - 08:44 AM, said:

Forget your moral arguments. Exclusives only make business sense for franchises that have a huge following, that can make people follow them to a new store. It's pointless for MW which has no such draw, Epic/Valve/any store wouldn't pay PGI anything to make MW5 exclusive nor would PGI be able to regain the revenue lost from customers due to visibility caused by stocking at only one store.

Sorta. Exclusivity creates demand. It's got a certain value to it and potentially will drive total sales of games that start exclusive on Epic up; both in driving some business to the Epic store and then a second sales bump when the game goes to Steam.

While I dislike exclusives I get the logic for this angle; it's a limited time exclusive and not a sort of platform exclusivity.

[kuma8877]

Nightbird, on 28 March 2019 - 08:44 AM, said:

Forget your moral arguments. Exclusives only make business sense for franchises that have a huge following, that can make people follow them to a new store. It's pointless for MW which has no such draw, Epic/Valve/any store wouldn't pay PGI anything to make MW5 exclusive nor would PGI be able to regain the revenue lost from customers due to visibility caused by stocking at only one store.

Most of the games moving to Epic exclusively are NOT well known IP's or AAA even, it has nothing to do with morality, just basic economics. Epic is offering to take around half of what Steam takes per sale and pay up front to lock down exclusivity. It's a great deal for studios, horrible plan for consumers (current Epic store functionality). PGI could be swayed. Most studios could be, given what's on the table and what a deal it is for them on the front end.

[Nightbird]

kuma8877, on 28 March 2019 - 09:52 AM, said:

Most of the games moving to Epic exclusively are NOT well known IP's or AAA even, it has nothing to do with morality, just basic economics. Epic is offering to take around half of what Steam takes per sale and pay up front to lock down exclusivity. It's a great deal for studios, horrible plan for consumers (current Epic store functionality). PGI could be swayed. Most studios could be, given what's on the table and what a deal it is for them on the front end.

That front end deal is not free, Epic will have a limited promotional budget to lose money on some games in order to attract more game publishers to their store. We'll see if PGI get offered something, but it's definitely a money losing proposition for Epic... both take a much smaller cut and also use that limited take to pay studios up front for exclusives.


Valve isn't that evil for taking 30%, B&M stores used to take 50%+ right? If Epic actually becomes a threat, I'm sure Steam will lower their take.

Edited by Nightbird, 28 March 2019 - 10:06 AM.

[kuma8877]

Nightbird, on 28 March 2019 - 09:57 AM, said:

That front end deal is not free, Epic will have a limited promotional budget to lose money on some games in order to attract more game publishers to their store. We'll see if PGI get offered something, but it's definitely a money losing proposition for them... take a much smaller cut and also use that limited take to pay studios up front for exclusives.

For Epic, sure, but when you have one of the biggest gaming cash cows in history (fortnight) and most prolific game engine funding your company's exploits, you can drop a couple million here and there to secure some exclusivity of a turn based strategy game and grow your long term potential by forcing the hand of the marketplace to shift. Epic is playing the loooong game, this is pretty clear. Short term losses absorbed to create a new market space and future growth. Pretty basic strategy. Judging by a lot of the games that have signed exclusivity deals (mostly indy & mid level studios), PGI is in a decent space to be a potential prospect with MW5 on Unreal. I hope they don't go Epic exclusive, but given recent developments it is a possible outcome.

Edited by kuma8877, 28 March 2019 - 10:12 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Nightbird, on 28 March 2019 - 09:57 AM, said:

Value isn't that evil for taking 30%, B&M stores used to take 50%+ right? If Epic actually becomes a threat, I'm sure Steam will lower their take.

That is true. Traditionally Valve still takes less than traditional stores.


This is going into some assumption territory here...

I still do blame Valve here a bit though for the current situation. I think Valve's unwillingness to compromise and adjust their business over time has resulted in a lot of the bigger publishers leaving and starting their own launchers/stores. If Valve had been more willing to look at their business and costs, and reduce their take from publishers, I can't help but wonder if the likes of Origin, U-Play, and the Bethesda Launcher wouldn't have been a thing.

I think the cost of doing what Valve does with Steam has become cheaper and cheaper over time, but they haven't reduced their take to accommodate that and because of that, they have hemorrhaged games. Epic is just one additional consequence of their decisions.

So I don't necessarily think Valve is the innocent party getting beat up by big old bad Epic, I think in many ways they brought it about themselves. Heck, let's face it, had Valve just matched Epic right from the start when they made their announcement, I don't think nearly as many publishers would have signed exclusive deals.


I'm not a lover of how Valve conducts business with Steam, however I definitely don't like Epic. Valve has made a lot of mistakes and have been a bit greedy IMO, however Epic is playing dirty in such a way that it has impacted and fractured the community. To cause this much chaos, how could I not despise their tactics.

If there is one plus out of ALL of this, it is hopefully that Epic actually resembles a real store within the roadmap timeline they set (and not something more akin to a shady guy selling games from his trench coat in a dark ally, writing your Credit Card info down on a note pad half hanging out his pocket). Hopefully they also abandon this exclusive crap once they gain more momentum in the industry. Lastly, hopefully Valve will get off their butt and actually try and compete, which should benefit everyone.

Time will tell I suppose.

[Nightbird]

If that causes Valve to produce games again, it'll be a good thing. but I digress

[MeiSooHaityu]

Nightbird, on 28 March 2019 - 10:38 AM, said:

If that causes Valve to produce games again, it'll be a good thing. but I digress

Exactly! Maybe games like...

• Half Life 2: Episode 2, Epilogue Part 1
  
• Portal 2: GlaDos's Revenge, Chapter 1
  
• Left 4 Dead: The Prequel!

Something like that

[RumpledMunky]

GoodTry, on 28 March 2019 - 06:13 AM, said:

I don't get all of the strife about the Epic games store. It's just another launcher. You already need separate launchers for EA games, Blizzard/Activision games, Steam, and others. You also need a launcher for MWO.

What's the big deal?

I settled on Steam 16 years ago and I have the EA launcher from way back when too. As far as third party store launchers go if it's not available on one of those two or on the Xbox I just don't play it. I have enough of them already. I also dislike the exclusives thing. I'll just wait until it's not exclusive anymore and buy it when it's 75% off on some future sale. Or not play it. I have 200 something games in back log anyway. Not gonna run out of pass time hours in the near future. Finally I won't support anything that Tencent has it's claws in.

[PhoenixFire55]

Curccu, on 28 March 2019 - 06:06 AM, said:

Don't know how long you have been playing games but 1st time when steam was required to play counter-strike... oh that crying how sh!tty steam was and no one wanted to use it . I just find this amusing.

To be fair there is a huge difference between Steam back then and Steam now, as well as your average person internet connection (dial up) back then and now.

[Curccu]

PhoenixFire55, on 29 March 2019 - 12:33 AM, said:

To be fair there is a huge difference between Steam back then and Steam now, as well as your average person internet connection (dial up) back then and now.

Yes but Epic store is wayyy better than Steam was back then and with some time Epic will polish it.

but honestly I don't understand people who have these huge issues to install and use another store/portal... If it's free, it works... whats the ******* issue?

[PhoenixFire55]

Curccu, on 29 March 2019 - 12:42 AM, said:

Yes but Epic store is wayyy better than Steam was back then and with some time Epic will polish it.

but honestly I don't understand people who have these huge issues to install and use another store/portal... If it's free, it works... whats the ******* issue?

The issue is that they don't need it and thus don't want it. Nobody likes being forced to do anything.

[Anjian]

In my opinion, Epic is having its moment of hubris with Fortnite beating expectations --- last year.

A big example is Epic trying to take on the Google with its Play Store by not listing it there and forcing you to download it separately. So Epic also had a special deal with Samsung so you can download it to your S. Galaxy directly. They could not do it on the Apple device because the iOS is more tightly controlled, you cannot download anything for iOS period without the App Store.

Initially on July 2018, it worked very well for Epic. But by November, things started turning around and it appears that the platform advantages of listing PUBG on Google Play began to overtake the advantages of Fortnite's "independence". This is truly ironic that it was Tencent who is publishing and distributing PUBG mobile --- perhaps now the hottest mobile game in the world --- and Tencent happens to own 40% of Epic Games and knows the ins and outs of having their own distribution platform like Tencent does in its home China.

Maybe Tencent respects Epic's independence but does not believe in Epic's decision for a new independent platform since mighty Tencent themselves list all their games for global distribution in the Google Play Store and they truly understand that Google is king of the Android platform. Tencent's top grossing mobile game Honor of Kings/Arena of Valor, which already grossed over 4 billion, is listed in Google Play. Tencent's decision to respect Google and its Play Store has handsomely paid off for PUBG Mobile today.

Going to 2019, Epic should be a bit more careful and humble thanks to Apex Legends, which suddenly surged to 50 million plus players in a week's time. It's likely that these players were just sucked out from Fortnite and PUBG. Other battle royales might be rising, such as NetEase's Knives Out, which has locked the Japanese market and kept PUBG and Fortnite from being popular there.

Edited by Anjian, 29 March 2019 - 01:07 AM.