67 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

So RACs and UACs, sometimes you love it for peppering the enemy non-stop, other times we hate it for the consecutive jams we get.

UACs are a bit more upfront if you're lucky. If it's a UAC20, and you could double-tap, that is 40 damage in relative succession, and is essentially 8 DPS if you don't jam, the UAC5 could double tap 10s which is essentially 6.02 DPS if you don't jam.

RACs, with RAC5, 1.5 x 7.275 x (6 - 1)s = 54.5625 damage under 5 seconds with DPS of 3.52; with RAC2 it's 0.9 x 7.275 x (8 - 0.75) = 47.469375 Damage under 7.25s, both of which before redlining, and does 2.7125 DPS.

The saving grace of balance however is the jam, it's 3.7% chance for RACs when firing at Redline which incurs 9.5s of jamming with an average 27 shots before redlining. It's 14% for iUAC20 for 7.5s jam + 4s CD with 7.14285 average shots before jamming. It's 15% for iUAC5 for 6s jam + 1.66s CD with 6.6667 average shots before jamming.

The iUAC20 does a cumulative 36.0714285s CD for doing 285.7142857 damage with an effective DPS of 7.92. The iUAC5 does a cumulative 17.06667s CD for doing 66.6667 damage with an effective DPS of 3.906249. And so on and so forth.

The RAC5s, does a cumulative duration of 19.2113s while doing 76.875 damage, with an EDPS of 4. The RAC2s, does a cumulative duration of 21.2113s while doing 71.769375 damage, with an EDPS of 3.3835.

Source: https://mwomercs.com.../list/full.json

What I'm getting here is that, the UACs has a scary upfront burst damage and DPS if it' doesn't jam, and still a rather high effective DPS considering the average jamming.

On the other than, the RACs, seems to have poor DPS considering it's weight when not redlining it. Consider that the AC5 does 3.01 DPS for the same tons at RAC2s only doing 2.7125 DPS, even the AC2 does 2.78 DPS. And as a kicker, the ACs are affected by cooldown quirks that are prolific with IS mechs which leads to even higher DPS.

On the other hand, when you redline it, the DPS goes waaay up. The RAC does 4 DPS, considering that it's 10 tons, 1 ton lighter than the LBX10, and the RAC2 gets a bit higher AC5.

The RAC, while it does have rather poor DPS when not redlined, it seems to have been balanced when being redlined with average jam-time. Likewise, the upfront damage of RACs, while it does take some time with rather long facetime, it's still doing a lot of damage before redline.

Are you okay with this? With UACs having a chance of being monstrous? Of RACs having ungodly exposure time?

Would you rather have RACs jamming 100% -- instantly when redlined with shorter Jam-Duration and Dissipation? Would you rather have UACs have 0% jam chance but near-doubled cooldown?

[Nesutizale]

The6thMessenger, on 03 April 2019 - 11:59 PM, said:

Would you rather have RACs jamming 100% -- instantly when redlined with shorter Jam-Duration and Dissipation? Would you rather have UACs have 0% jam chance but near-doubled cooldown?

So you basicly say they should act like normal guns where when you shoot long enough you overheat and need to cooldown the barrels and when you fire twice as fast you need twice the time to reaload?

Maybe add that all ACs fire a stream like RACs but with a limited number of shells before they need to reload/cooldown.

Edited by Nesutizale, 04 April 2019 - 12:38 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Nesutizale, on 04 April 2019 - 12:36 AM, said:

So you basicly say they should act like normal guns where when you shoot long enough you overheat and need to cooldown the barrels and when you fire twice as fast you need twice the time to reaload?

Basically, yes.

Puts a definite ceiling of performance which makes it easier to balance. Likewise we won't feel screwed over by our own weapons that way.

[Nesutizale]

That might make these cheating programs useless too...the ones that allow you to fire RACs nearly endlessly.

[The6thMessenger]

Nesutizale, on 04 April 2019 - 12:40 AM, said:

That might make these cheating programs useless too...the ones that allow you to fire RACs nearly endlessly.

That's already patched up by a hotfix. Has a 0.15s refire time so macros only serve to lower the DPS.

Nesutizale, on 04 April 2019 - 12:36 AM, said:

Maybe add that all ACs fire a stream like RACs but with a limited number of shells before they need to reload/cooldown.

The RAC5 have 5s of shoot time before jamming and with 8 ROF, that means 40 shots before need to "reload" or "Cooldown". Simmilarly RAC2s have 6s of shoot time before jamming, and with 12 ROF, that is 72 shots before you have to "reload".

[M R T]

The6thMessenger, on 03 April 2019 - 11:59 PM, said:

Would you rather have RACs jamming 100% -- instantly when redlined with shorter Jam-Duration and Dissipation? Would you rather have UACs have 0% jam chance but near-doubled cooldown?

I would like to see RACs jam as soon as they redline, take away the randomness.
UACs should have a similar mechanic to RACs, a bar that fills up each time you double tap, and jams as soon as it redlines. That will take away the randomness from UACs as well.

[Nesutizale]

I still consider macros cheating. If you have to use an external program, its cheating. If you can do it yourself, then do it yourself.
This ******** of "Yah I can do that in my sleep, I just use a macro because I am lazy" is just that...its cheating.

As for ACs firing a fixed rate of shells. I haven't done the math. Its just an idea that came up when I asked in another topic about the C-ACs usefullness compared to C-LBX and C-UAC.
We spoke about the lore behind the AC and that they are basicly more or less giant MGs.

So they all (AC, LBX + UAC) would fire in a stream of bullets like the RAC does now. Except that when they have fired a fixed number of shells they would reload.
U-AC would fire twice the amount of shells in the same time if doubletapped/ holding the firebutton.
LBX wouldn't spread like a shotgun, as it does currently but the shells would explode on impact or just before the target and spread damage then.

It would also make them more similar to pulse lasers in that they have a short duration but can still spread their damage.
Also I think it would look pretty cool.

Edited by Nesutizale, 04 April 2019 - 12:57 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Morte Nilsum, on 04 April 2019 - 12:49 AM, said:

I would like to see RACs jam as soon as they redline, take away the randomness.
UACs should have a similar mechanic to RACs, a bar that fills up each time you double tap, and jams as soon as it redlines. That will take away the randomness from UACs as well.

I'd actually agree with this, as long as the redline for UACs comes really fast, say after 1-2 double shots (depending on a caliber) you are already redlining. I'd also argue that UAC that is jammed should stay jammed for the rest of the match, like it actually does in BT. UACs were never meant to be high-burst-damage weapon they are now, they are still supposed to be a high DPS weapon, like regular ACs. IMHO currently the advantages you get for that extra 1 ton 1 crit slot far outweight their price on IS side. And for clans there is literally no price to begin with.

[PhoenixFire55]

Nesutizale, on 04 April 2019 - 12:54 AM, said:

I still consider macros cheating. If you have to use an external program, its cheating. If you can do it yourself, then do it yourself.
This ******** of "Yah I can do that in my sleep, I just use a macro because I am lazy" is just that...its cheating.

Who cares? ... Top players don't use macros coz marcos don't give any advantages, rather the opposite. When someone gimps himself by using them its hardly cheating.

[Khobai]

RNG jamming absolutely needs to be removed from the game. The effectiveness of a weapon should never rely on a dice roll.

Instead UACs should have a jambar like RACs do. When you doubletap the jambar fills up. When the jambar fills up the whole way it jams 100% of the time. That way jamming is predictable not random.

And RACs shouldnt have a jambar at all. Instead RACs should use a magazine-based mechanic with a long cooldown when the magazine is being reloaded. The RAC magazine would load either a full ton or a half ton of ammo. This would also allow the spoolup delay to be removed from RACs.

Lastly standard ACs should all get substantially longer range and faster velocity than UACs. Standard ACs should also get a choice of ammo types like precision, caseless, armorpiercing, etc... (we obviously cant have ammo swapping but we certainly can have a choice of 3 mutually exclusive ammo types and once you load on one of the ammo types in mechlab the other 2 ammo types get greyed out)

Edited by Khobai, 04 April 2019 - 02:18 AM.

[Nesutizale]

I think RACs should keep the jamming bar as it shows your weapons overheating with time.
UACs could also have one, except that it counts the number of doublefires and goes up much faster. When you reach the peak it jams for the entire game.

Special Ammo for normal IS-ACs, where you select the ammotype in the mechlab, would also be appriciated. Since clans don't have much special ammo, IIRC they don't have any, maybe the UAC would jam not as fast...maybe two more shots then the IS as they allready have the weight advantage/slot/heat advantages.

Edited by Nesutizale, 04 April 2019 - 02:17 AM.

[Khobai]

The reason for switching RACs over to a magazine based mechanic would be so the spoolup delay could be completely removed.

The spoolup delay needs to be removed on RACs to make them better weapons. But as long as RACs use the jambar mechanic the spoolup delay has to exist to prevent abuse of the jambar mechanics. Which is why getting rid of the jambar mechanic in favor of a more predictable/consistent mechanic makes sense.

The jambar mechanic makes more sense for UACs than RACs. Because UACs are intended to be standard autocannons that can occasionally burstfire in short durations at the risk of jamming. While RACs are intended to always have a high rate of fire and shouldnt ever jam (they should just have long periods of downtime to reload their magazine).

Edited by Khobai, 04 April 2019 - 02:34 AM.

[Nesutizale]

Would it balance itself when you take away the spoolup and have a much faster filling jammingbar?
On the other hand I like the spoolingup. It gives the weapons a different character and handling and makes it less a "another" AC.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 04 April 2019 - 02:06 AM, said:

And RACs shouldnt have a jambar at all. Instead RACs should use a magazine-based mechanic with a long cooldown when the magazine is being reloaded. The RAC magazine would load either a full ton or a half ton of ammo. This would also allow the spoolup delay to be removed from RACs.

Ugh. No.

RACs are sustained, UACs are the burst. UACs should get the magazine, and the RACs should get the jam bar.

The spool up also adds character to the RACs, so no.

Khobai, on 04 April 2019 - 02:19 AM, said:

The reason for switching RACs over to a magazine based mechanic would be so the spoolup delay could be completely removed.

The spoolup delay needs to be removed on RACs to make them better weapons. But as long as RACs use the jambar mechanic the spoolup delay has to exist to prevent abuse of the jambar mechanics. Which is why getting rid of the jambar mechanic in favor of a more predictable/consistent mechanic makes sense.

Spooling up isn't RNG, it's predictable and consistent. So no, what you are saying is a non-sequitur.

Simmilarly, the idea of spooling is for people to maximize the shooting time by shooting continously. If you could just burst fire it by engaging in and out, that defeats the purpose. RAC isn't peek-poke, it's staredown. You're better off with UAC10s and UAC20s for them peek-poke.

Magazine Based makes sense for the UACs because the UACs were supposed to have smaller amount of shells that you partition, the RACs are for prolonged firing which the jam bar makes better sense cause it's supposed to be the machine-gun one for sustained firing. The jam-bar is basically just a magazine that regenerates ammo, which is necessary for the "machine-gun" feel, and conveys the lots of ammunition "in the magazine". If you want cooldown nodes and quirks to affect RACs, just apply it to the RAC or the Jam Duration/Dissipation.

Nesutizale, on 04 April 2019 - 02:22 AM, said:

Would it balance itself when you take away the spoolup and have a much faster filling jammingbar?
On the other hand I like the spoolingup. It gives the weapons a different character and handling and makes it less a "another" AC.

YES THANK YOU.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 04 April 2019 - 02:45 AM.

[Gamuray]

Instead of a jam bar for UAC's, just make it so if you fire once you get normal cooldown, fire twice and you get double cooldown time. Literally same dps as an AC of the same caliber, but with a bit of added function for the extra tonnage cost. No RNG jam, no crazy DPS, easy peasy.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Nesutizale, on 04 April 2019 - 02:16 AM, said:

UACs could also have one, except that it counts the number of doublefires and goes up much faster. When you reach the peak it jams for the entire game.

Wait.. what?

[The6thMessenger]

Gamuray, on 04 April 2019 - 02:33 AM, said:

Instead of a jam bar for UAC's, just make it so if you fire once you get normal cooldown, fire twice and you get double cooldown time. Literally same dps as an AC of the same caliber, but with a bit of added function for the extra tonnage cost. No RNG jam, no crazy DPS, easy peasy.

You'd achieve the same thing by having 0% chance of jamming with 2x the cooldown.

[M R T]

Nesutizale, on 04 April 2019 - 02:16 AM, said:

When you reach the peak it jams for the entire game.

I don't think this is a good idea. It will change how people are used to using the weapon, and will not go down well. It's no fun having your main weapons becoming useless for the rest of the match, and the main point of any game is to have fun.

[The6thMessenger]

Nesutizale, on 04 April 2019 - 02:16 AM, said:

I think RACs should keep the jamming bar as it shows your weapons overheating with time.
UACs could also have one, except that it counts the number of doublefires and goes up much faster. When you reach the peak it jams for the entire game.

That's dumb man. People will neuter themselves constantly with this dumb mechanic.

[Nesutizale]

Morte Nilsum, on 04 April 2019 - 02:41 AM, said:

I don't think this is a good idea. It will change how people are used to using the weapon, and will not go down well. It's no fun having your main weapons becoming useless for the rest of the match, and the main point of any game is to have fun.

No games need to be pain and stressfull
I like it when there is a drawback to what you do and it askes for a bit more attention but I can live without the jam for the entire game.
Makes me wonder why this rule has persisted in the tabletop for years and years while it has the same problems of not beeing fun for at least one person.

[Edit]
Just thought would it prevent boating when you risk loosing your arsenal of UACs / RACs because you can't keep your finger from the firebutton?
I know, no one will like that idea...just a fun thought.

Edited by Nesutizale, 04 April 2019 - 02:47 AM.