76 replies to this topic

[Dragonporn]

@YueFei
In TT rules, Alpha Strike isn't something mechs do time after time again, meaning it's not gameplay focus. Sure weapon stack builds exists, but so are other, more varied ones, and they are still viable. You trying to twist my OP into me making complaints about my personal performance in the game. I don't. I'm more than happy with my personal performance since day one, especially considering builds I run. There are few competitive games I play, and enjoy to no end, while taking them quite seriously, as they don't rely so much on RNG, built on self sustained systems, meaning they don't try to blend unblendable, like TT turn-baser rules with FPS PvP action. Some people may still see MWO as competitive and have fun in that, but I don't, and I pretty clearly explained why. We can just disagree on that.

@Vxheous
Thank you, that exactly what I was talking about. Currently there are over 100 mechs presented in the game with 5-8 variants each, while you just posted some 57 mechs with 1-2 viable variants tops. Do math. That's exactly what I call short pool. No idea how you guys are standing it. However in QP I've seen ALL mechs so far that made it into the game, and pretty sure, most variants as well. Also funny thing is that pretty much half of the mechs I personally enjoy aren't even made it into your list.

Comp tactics and stuff looks good on paper, but doesn't look so good in action. Different strokes for different folks I presume. And yeah, wasn't MWOWC 18 first one featuring stock mechs? Idea was actually pretty neat, hoped it would make it past comp.

@Y E O N N E
You basically saying that you put same weapons on different groups. I do this too, and that's not my point or proposal. Also you trying for basic stuff to sound more complex than it is. It sure a matter of perspective, but all that isn't really even close to necessary to perform well. In QP environment, while you'll be hillhoping and scratching enemies with LLs mile away, your team will be taking one to the face for you. If built is decent, your sheer damage potential in range of MLs + LLs will do best for shortening TTK, and there should be no problems with heat, which allow to take far less damage for your team in general by killing opponents faster. Focus fire with heavy alpha rules it.

I don't complain about QP one bit, I enjoy it, but what I think is that more layers of depth, in anything, equals more fun, maybe not for every game out there, but definitely for MWO, considering what it's built on. Don't know why more fire groups even seem like anything to be concerned about, game is rather slow paced as it is. Pus ignoring foundation of this game and features transferred to it is silly. My real problem that developers didn't go through with either approach, shallow mix of TT rules and FPS action combat doesn't work well together, and it raised various concerns and issues with this game. If they did go through from the beginning, it wouldn't be like that. However, dev team acknowledges both TTK/High Alpha issues and their attempt of MWOWC 2018 was a clear sign they try to show this game isn't only about running stack-same weapon alpha overperformer chassis builds, but something more. Don't need to remind how much whining there was after announcement. And yeah, you underestimate RNG factor in this game by high margin. When stray beam scratching your backside, say, from a teammate, even has a theoretical chance to destroy your equipment, putting you under 100% operational, that's not something you can ignore, and your proposal is basically "don't ever take damage", which is pretty funny. And as Variant1 mentioned, mechlab is pretty amazing feature, and looks so deep and complicated, but once you scratch the surface, you realize there's not much to it. Way too streamlined.

Ultimately, as I previously mentioned, it's way too late to expect game to change it's focus either way, was more like a sharing of ideas of what it COULD be. While changing focus wouldn't really be as hard, if think a little bit outside the box, and no need for drastic changes even. The only reason why it's not happening, is because PGI rightfully scared to lose significant part of playerbase, and it this time, who wouldn't be able to run their LMB masher boats. Btw, names you dropped I've never seen in QP myself, in over 3k matches, QP mostly, mind you, however, seen some records of their games outside of QP, so no idea really.

[Bowelhacker]

I think my biggest gripe is people calling mechs robots, when they are really machines.

[FupDup]

Bowelhacker, on 07 April 2019 - 03:53 PM, said:

I think my biggest gripe is people calling mechs robots, when they are really machines.

The proper terminology is gundams.

[Dionnsai]

MWO has substandard decals.

Look at these fine offerings from Planetside 2 for example:

[PocketYoda]

PSR..
Skill trees and their costs make a two tier community..
Bias clan gear over Inner sphere..
Terrible for content updates, and when they do update its modes no one wanted
New stuff takes too long to reach the Free aspect of the game..
Money is horrible unless you were gifted it early on, again two tier communities.
Engines bias
Heat sink Bias
Consumables
Exploitable ranges..
No one does objectives in objective modes...

List goes on..Lore went out the window a long time ago in MWO..

Edited by Samial, 07 April 2019 - 04:57 PM.

[Vxheous]

Dragonporn, on 07 April 2019 - 02:55 PM, said:

@Vxheous
Thank you, that exactly what I was talking about. Currently there are over 100 mechs presented in the game with 5-8 variants each, while you just posted some 57 mechs with 1-2 viable variants tops. Do math. That's exactly what I call short pool. No idea how you guys are standing it. However in QP I've seen ALL mechs so far that made it into the game, and pretty sure, most variants as well. Also funny thing is that pretty much half of the mechs I personally enjoy aren't even made it into your list.

Comp tactics and stuff looks good on paper, but doesn't look so good in action. Different strokes for different folks I presume. And yeah, wasn't MWOWC 18 first one featuring stock mechs? Idea was actually pretty neat, hoped it would make it past comp.

It's actually not a short pool, since there are many many many redundant mechs and chassis. 56-57 mechs represented is actually a big number for competitive play. Just because there's 400+ total mechs doesn't mean every single one will be great. The fact that there is a high selection of mech chassis being represented is enough. There will never be a way to make every single variant within a chassis equal to each other, unless they are literally EQUAL to each other, as in having identical hardpoints.

Since you're so enamoured with stock mechs, the stock pool of "good" mechs is actually way more limited than full modified mechs. That is why MWOWC 2018 was boring to play, the pool was actually "short" as you put it. I would know, I dedicated 6+ months to playing that crap, and hundreds of hours of practice in private lobbies playing pre-3039 stock tech mechs. There are 116 total mechs available to play for MWOWC 2018, and there were maybe 28 actually useful mechs out of that selection (and that's including some LRM mechs that some teams refused to play). I mean, we were given a choice of mechs like a Locust 1M, with a single LRM 5 and a total of 16 CT hitpoints, and 10 leg hitpoints, vs a Locust 1E with 2 medium lasers and 2 small lasers, 32 CT hitpoints and 24 leg hitpoints. Why would anyone rational EVER bring a Locust 1M onto the field, it would die from a single sneeze.

Edited by Vxheous, 07 April 2019 - 06:00 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Variant1, on 07 April 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

Its possible, just remove the quirks and quirk tree then bump up weapon heat values. The heat sink system also needs to be reworked for it to work. Balistic and missiles could get longer cooldowns to compensate

It's really not possible. Let's walk through this:

1. We raise the heat on lasers and make it such that you can't fire a single volley with a big damage size; people stop taking lasers because they cannot do enough damage per blast to compensate for the DPS being thrown by ballistics and missiles. People also stop taking Lights that aren't SRM or MG boats because they are way too hot and have garbage damage output.

2. We raise the heat and lengthen cooldowns on ballistics and missiles to counter-balance what we did to lasers; now we've gone back to alphas being useful, except the poptarts are dominating again because lasers can't get volleys sufficiently large enough to compete against those PPFLD users and DPS doesn't work on poptarts (rather the opposite). So...we nerf the heat and cooldown on PPCs.

3. We are once again back at a place where the game looks similar to how it does now, except nobody tries to flank or back-stab because nothing can put out enough damage to snag a kill or even take a component before the target's allies can intervene.

4. Wash, rinse, repeat cycle.

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Is long ttk bad though? these are giant war machines, they should be able to take a hit. And theres no such thing as deathballing, only a firing line and a team sticking together.
A team sticking together is a good thing right? this is a team game after all
As for nascar people need to be encouraged to stick with their assault buds, or at least create more maps with cover/edit them

Yes it's bad. Working as a team doesn't just mean balling up, it means everybody performing actions toward a common goal and doing so in such a way that makes achieving that goal more efficient (i.e. see Lights squirreling the enemy? Push on them and hit their backs).

If the TTK is too long, it's never worth the risk of trying to gank a target because it can't be done before enemy help arrives. It places even more emphasis on bigger-is-better because it makes it that much harder for a lighter 'Mech to take on a larger one.

[Y E O N N E]

Dragonporn, on 07 April 2019 - 02:55 PM, said:

.@Y E O N N E
You basically saying that you put same weapons on different groups. I do this too, and that's not my point or proposal.

It is your point and proposal, you just don't recognize it as such simply because the name of the weapon in the slot is different. It is identical. Juggling a LRM at 900 meters, then adding in some Large Laser fire when I get to 500 meters, then some MGs when I get to 200 meters is no different than firing a Gauss at 800 meters and adding in a LL at 500 and an ML at 300. Running hot? Back off some of the weapons, bracket build or no. Even with heat penalties in the mix, it just means you ride the line at, I dunno, 40%, instead of 99%.

Your fingers and brain are doing the exact same things regardless of build, here.

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Also you trying for basic stuff to sound more complex than it is. It sure a matter of perspective, but all that isn't really even close to necessary to perform well.

It's not complex at all, which is why it's all the more necessary to point it out to people who clearly do NOT understand it. You have zero tactical sense and it's evident with ignorant statements like this:

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In QP environment, while you'll be hillhoping and scratching enemies with LLs mile away, your team will be taking one to the face for you.

562 meters is not a mile away. I'm still drilling 27 points into a target every time I poke and I'm still taking return fire. If I'm lucky, the enemy is actually now hesitating in their movement while they figure out how to deal with me and my team is rotating into position to provide enfilading fire. Then we squeeze on the enemy position and that's when the rest of my battery comes into play.

If I'm less lucky, my position gets pushed and I'm fighting at medium-close range with the full set of lasers as I make my way back to the main formation. This is actually what typically happens in QP because the team usually does NOT flank and squeeze. Too passive.

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If built is decent, your sheer damage potential in range of MLs + LLs will do best for shortening TTK, and there should be no problems with heat, which allow to take far less damage for your team in general by killing opponents faster. Focus fire with heavy alpha rules it.

You have to get to range, first. If I have a good position, you will have trouble closing to use those MLs.

I'm actually pretty darn good at this, my friend. If I'm only firing 3LL or so, it's because I have a 'Mech that lets me win trades doing so even against bigger volleys, i.e. DRG-1C back in the day (ask Vxheous how crazy that 'Mech used to be at it) or a TDR-5S-T.

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I don't complain about QP one bit, I enjoy it, but what I think is that more layers of depth, in anything, equals more fun, maybe not for every game out there, but definitely for MWO, considering what it's built on.

Dude, come on. You DID complain about QP in this very thread. Every time you complain about bad tactics and being unable to do anything that isn't staying with the team and rotating is a complaint about QP.

There are plenty of layers of depth, you are just either failing to recognize them or failing to use them. What you want is increased complexity, not increased depth.

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Don't know why more fire groups even seem like anything to be concerned about, game is rather slow paced as it is.

Slow-paced until you get into actual combat. Though, if fire groups are so unconcerning then why are you trying to increase the number necessary for people to deal with? Two-edged sword.

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Pus ignoring foundation of this game and features transferred to it is silly. My real problem that developers didn't go through with either approach, shallow mix of TT rules and FPS action combat doesn't work well together, and it raised various concerns and issues with this game.

The foundation of this game is how fun it is to play, not the BattleTech fluff. No MechWarrior game prior to this one has been better balanced or even played as much respect to TT as MWO has, and frankly it has suffered quite a lot for doing the latter.

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If they did go through from the beginning, it wouldn't be like that. However, dev team acknowledges both TTK/High Alpha issues and their attempt of MWOWC 2018 was a clear sign they try to show this game isn't only about running stack-same weapon alpha overperformer chassis builds, but something more.

You keep saying this like it's a definite problem, and it isn't. People play efficiently. You try to restrict alpha strikes with lots of weapons and all you end up with is maximizing alpha size with fewer weapons.

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Don't need to remind how much whining there was after announcement.

Yes, by people who actually play competitively finding it even more boring than full MechLab. And it was more boring.

Quote

And yeah, you underestimate RNG factor in this game by high margin. When stray beam scratching your backside, say, from a teammate, even has a theoretical chance to destroy your equipment, putting you under 100% operational, that's not something you can ignore, and your proposal is basically "don't ever take damage", which is pretty funny.

I'm really not underestimating it. "Don't take damage" is actually pretty solid advice, with the caveat being that you should modify it to say "don't take unnecessary damage".

Quote

And as Variant1 mentioned, mechlab is pretty amazing feature, and looks so deep and complicated, but once you scratch the surface, you realize there's not much to it. Way too streamlined.

It's really not.

Quote

Ultimately, as I previously mentioned, it's way too late to expect game to change it's focus either way, was more like a sharing of ideas of what it COULD be. While changing focus wouldn't really be as hard, if think a little bit outside the box, and no need for drastic changes even. The only reason why it's not happening, is because PGI rightfully scared to lose significant part of playerbase, and it this time, who wouldn't be able to run their LMB masher boats. Btw, names you dropped I've never seen in QP myself, in over 3k matches, QP mostly, mind you, however, seen some records of their games outside of QP, so no idea really.

That is a wrong and bad take.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 07 April 2019 - 07:55 PM.

[Xiphias]

GuardDogg, on 05 April 2019 - 06:56 PM, said:

Nascar is mine, many have made posts on it for tactical, and requests for Commanders. It is a lost battle. Another I say, how are pilots hitting targets and their reticle are not on the targets. Their reticles is 3-5 feet in front or behind target and getting hits. Doesn't make sense. I have watched team mates do this. This could be happening to you, or others.

Just to clear the second point in this up. The spectator view is not 100% accurate to what the pilot you are spectating is seeing. Spectator can vary a lot due to lag or other factors. While you might be seeing them shooting 3-5 in front/behind of a target to get hits, they are probably seeing their reticle on the target, the difference is due to the spectator cam. I've spectated someone and later watched video from their point of view and you can see the difference between the two.

[Joshua McEvedy]

1) Ghost heat.

2) Two Buckets making loyalist contracts meaningless, with the "community warfare" concept, strategic objectives, and in-game economy all but abandoned.

3) Little serious content development other than new mech packs (Any new maps in the works?).

4) Nerfs, nerfs, and more nerfs, especially for Clan mechs.

5) No real engagement with the overall playing community...we almost never see any of the devs in-game anymore, aside from Tina and Jason.

6) Recruitment tax hurts small casual units.

7) No new factions ever opened up for the game(Periphery States, Bandit Kingdoms, and Homeworld Clans), causing an overall feeling of stagnation.

[Kilogold]

Waiting in a matchmaking queue sucks the fun out of everything, especially when lack of respawns cause matches to be so short-lived. MW5 can't come soon enough.

[visionGT4]

That it's taken 5 years to achieve the current level of balance. Ain't perfect but its by far the best it's been since clams dropped

[Blacksheep One]

Biggest gripes... Hmm.
The time it takes to rejoin a match after a crash, but I've said that multiple times before. (I should be able to log in, have the system say "But you're on already in this mech in this match, would you like to rejoin?" and just do it instead of waiting... waiting... waiting for the advertisement, then waiting more for the mech bay, etc.)

Lack of map variety. Yes, we have several classic maps back.. environmental variants of two maps, which really feel geared to smaller teams. Do a solid, 100% urban environment other than Solaris City. Do something "inside" - whether it's caverns or, say, an underground complex. (We have the factory in Solaris, expand on it.) Lack of gameplay modes (in QP, at least) - it's skirmish, assault (IE, skirmish,) domination (IE, skirmish in this area,) conquest (which at least spreads things out...) and invasion (IE, skirmish but distract the lights with a little task they might do.)

[Vellron2005]

My biggest gripes with MWO are as follows:

1) Lack of overall fluff and immersion into the setting.

2) Slow or non-existent map development, lack of new maps that make the game stale and repetitive.

[Tarl Cabot]

Vellron2005, on 09 April 2019 - 01:26 AM, said:

My biggest gripes with MWO are as follows:

1) Lack of overall fluff and immersion into the setting.

2) Slow or non-existent map development, lack of new maps that make the game stale and repetitive.

Just adding to the above.

isXL not surviving ST loss, especially with reversed capacity being taken from top instead of bottom in a game that has no actual functioning engine crits (no, PGI would either make it crappy or too robust.. I am going with crappy.)

CW/FW/FP. Now PGI is attempting to make some changes to FP but it is being done, possibly near its maintenance cycle.

[LT. HARDCASE]

My gripe isn't so much with the boat.

It's with the people on deck who aren't listening as we scream while they slowly but surely steer straight it into the rocks.

[Mr Andersson]

The most frustrating thing in this game, by far, is idiotic team mates. But that isn't really something that PGI can change.

The biggest negative play experience that comes from the game itself is poorly thought out maps. Solaris City is the worst of them all. Every time I get it I just want to hit Alt+F4 and go do something useful with my time. An abundance of choke points reduces many games to a coin toss.
The classic maps are also pretty bad. They were changed for a reason.