28 replies to this topic

[HammerMaster]

Wow. The fixation here is just continuing to argue a difference of opinion.

Edited by HammerMaster, 09 April 2019 - 12:56 PM.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 09 April 2019 - 12:39 PM, said:

Some IS Omnis like the Black Hawk KU and Raptor provide unique niches of spamming more lasers than existing IS mechs.

Otherwise in general Omnis provide a unique mister potatohead puzzle challenge of trying to work within a specific set of limitations.

Yup, because the HBR-Virago should definitely be able to have its -10% energy heat quirk while still packing 6 high-mounted lasers like C-Bill Hellbringers.

Or use the Revenant CT with any other Vulture pods to get the benefit of CT lasers while still getting the full set quirks of other variants. Or any other number of loopholes. Pay2Win confirmed.

The fact remains if there were battlemechs with the same hardpoints those omnimechs would instantly become obsolete.

Kodiak vs Diashi for example.

That means omnimechs in general need some kindve advantage over battlemechs to keep things balanced. And no, simply not having a battlemech counterpart is not an "advantage".

FupDup, on 09 April 2019 - 12:39 PM, said:

Yup, because the HBR-Virago should definitely be able to have its -10% energy heat quirk while still packing 6 high-mounted lasers like C-Bill Hellbringers.

It wouldnt still be -10% though, if it was 6/8 it would be lowered to like -5%. All of the set bonus quirks would undergo a balance pass to be rebalanced at 6/8. I figured that would go without saying. You obviously cant expect to get the same bonus for less cost...

but yes the way omnipod set bonuses work should absolutely be changed because the way it works now is contradictory with how omnimechs are supposed to work.

making set bonuses 6/8 would allow omnimechs to swap out upto two components and still get their set bonuses.

Edited by Khobai, 09 April 2019 - 01:02 PM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

FupDup, on 09 April 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

I've had some thoughts about "zombie" quirks as well, though not for the Warhammer IIC because I think that mech just needs way more agility.

Some zombie quirks, from minor to crazyballs powerful, could include:
>Reduced ST penalties
>Reduced legging penalties (maybe even the ability to move very slowly with both legs gone)
>Retaining an arm after the side torso is destroyed
>Reduced critical hit chance (receiving) like we already see on a number of mechs but only the Lucky Seven has a really large amount of it

Well, the only reason why I suggested the zombie quirks for the Warhammer IIC is simply because it was a thing for the mech in battletech. They were known to have blanketed heat sinks around the engine which made them very hard to crit, hence why they were so popular outside of the clans. I think it was clan Diamond Shark's best selling mech for one of those reasons. I would be fine with limited agility for the mech if it had the appropriate "zombie" quirk, but anyone who has fought a Warhammer IIC already knows how easy it is to center crit one even after it's rescale and somewhat useless armor quirks it received as compensation.

[FLG 01]

Kiran Yagami, on 09 April 2019 - 06:49 AM, said:

Even worse, imagine being a large, boxy mech locked to the ISXL engine. IS omnis not only will not exist in MWO, but they should not exist in this game. PGI doomed any hope of IS omnis even being an enjoyable addition years ago.

Well I don't want an Avatar or any other bad IS Omni - just like I do not want a Hollander or any other bad IS BattleMech.

Units like the Men Shen or the Raptor e.g. are perfectly fine, with their locked IS XL.

In fact I would not even dream of using an LFE or an STD on them. I mean, I'd probably want to change the rating a little, but that is not the point of contention. Locked XL engines are fine if the geometry and speed are sufficiently good.

[R Valentine]

FupDup, on 09 April 2019 - 12:39 PM, said:

Yup, because the HBR-Virago should definitely be able to have its -10% energy heat quirk while still packing 6 high-mounted lasers like C-Bill Hellbringers. Or use the Revenant CT with any other Vulture pods to get the benefit of CT lasers while still getting the full set quirks of other variants. Or any other number of loopholes. Pay2Win confirmed.

That's a failure to put any decent quirks on a mech that doesn't cost real money, not a failure of the omnipod system. Take your beef up with PGI for giving Virago the only half useful Hellbringer quirks. The point still stands, set of 8 bonuses are pointless. They take force omnimechs into being battlemechs except worse at literally everything, when they're already worse at almost everything. Throw the things a freakin' bone. And a 10% range Hellby wouldn't even be OP. The only reason the 10% on Virago is so good is because it boats 4 cERLL, so that's 10% of an already huge number. Knock that down to cERML and HLL and suddenly it'll be 10% of a mediocre number. That'll barely matter.

[FupDup]

Kiran Yagami, on 09 April 2019 - 02:00 PM, said:

That's a failure to put any decent quirks on a mech that doesn't cost real money, not a failure of the omnipod system. Take your beef up with PGI for giving Virago the only half useful Hellbringer quirks. The point still stands, set of 8 bonuses are pointless. They take force omnimechs into being battlemechs except worse at literally everything, when they're already worse at almost everything. Throw the things a freakin' bone. And a 10% range Hellby wouldn't even be OP. The only reason the 10% on Virago is so good is because it boats 4 cERLL, so that's 10% of an already huge number. Knock that down to cERML and HLL and suddenly it'll be 10% of a mediocre number. That'll barely matter.

The reason for the Virago getting -10% heat on its 8/8 full set quirks is because you can only carry 4 high-mounted lasers instead of 6. Your other two lasers have to be mounted in the low left arm if you want to keep the heat quirk (which IMO is actually a worthy exchange even for the 4 ERML + 2 HLL build).

If we gave that same -10% heat quirk to more traditional HBR builds with purely torso/head weaponry then it would be too stronk (and it would also be P2W because only the hero variant would get this amazing bonus).

Set of 8 quirks are fine in concept. They exist to make bad Omnipods have some kind of use instead of making everybody use only one specific pod in each body location for their whole life. The two issues are that #1 PGI is not giving adequate standalone quirks to bad pods and #2 many of the pod set quirks are currently lacking outside of a few cases like the aforementioned Virago.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 09 April 2019 - 02:08 PM, said:

The reason for the Virago getting -10% heat on its 8/8 full set quirks is because you can only carry 4 high-mounted lasers instead of 6.

um the whole point of the virago being an omnimech is that it shouldnt ever have to suffer with only having 4 high mounted lasers.

again youre missing the entire point of omnimechs. which is to have more versatile weapon loadouts than battlemechs at the expense of other equipment, like engines, being locked.

having 8/8 set bonuses that make omnimechs more like battlemechs is contradictory to the entire purpose of omnimechs which is to be different from battlemechs. forcing something to be more like something else doesnt make it different.

omnimechs should work nothing like battlemechs. and they especially shouldnt have to function like inferior battlemechs to get their set bonus quirks. Thats why 6/8 would be better for the set bonuses, even if the set bonus have to be slightly weaker to balance it out. Let the virago get its set bonus with 6/8 but lower its set bonus to like 5%-7.5% instead of 10%. that would be fine.

im also highly in favor of every omnimech getting 1-2 universal omnihardpoints. some of the weaker omnimechs/omnipods might even get 3-4. that would give omnimechs another game mechanic that makes them different from battlemechs.

Edited by Khobai, 09 April 2019 - 02:20 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 09 April 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

um the whole point of the virago being an omnimech is that it shouldnt ever have to suffer with 4 high mounted lasers.

again youre missing the entire point of omnimechs. which is to have more versatile weapon loadouts than battlemechs at the expense of other equipment like engines being locked.

having 8/8 set bonuses that make omnimechs more like battlemechs is contradictory to the entire purpose of omnimechs which is to be entirely different from battlemechs.

omnimechs should work nothing like battlemechs. and they especially shouldnt have to function like inferior battlemechs to get their set bonus quirks. Thats why 6/8 would be better for the set bonuses, even if the set bonus have to be slightly weaker to balance it out.

I already said above you that I think individual weak Omnipods need better quirks (every pod should be useful in at least some weird niche way) instead of PGI's current strategy of relying too heavily on the full 8/8 set bonuses.

That does not however mean that full set quirks are inherently problematic. Their purpose is to make really bad combinations of pods actually usable, because even if we buffed individual pods some combinations would still inherently suck popsickles. It's also a "flavor" thing similar to how Battlemechs often get quirks for the weapons they carry in their stock form.

The issue is just PGI PGI'ing.

[Khobai]

the issue is always PGI PGI'ing.