75 replies to this topic

[FireDog]

I remember in MW4 (mektek) The IS X-Pulse induced knock to its targets much like that of a UAC5.

[FupDup]

FireDog, on 10 April 2019 - 05:01 PM, said:

I remember in MW4 (mektek) The IS X-Pulse induced knock to its targets much like that of a UAC5.

In MW4 all medium and large pulse lasers (normal, ER, X) induced cockpit knocking.

[Shadowomega1]

Khobai, on 10 April 2019 - 01:51 PM, said:

X-pulse really doesnt add anything new to the game. Neither do HAGs to be honest.

Id be fine with adding them but Id much rather see more impactful weapon systems added that radically change the landscape of the game.

Weapons like ARROWIV, mech mortars, thunderbolts, ppc capacitors, chemical lasers, light ACs, mech rifles, etc... thats what PGI needs to add to shake things up a bit.

You put Chem Lasers in that list? Their just ammo based version of the normal lasers, same tonnage, same slots. Their only purpose was for Machines that didn't use fusion engines, IE most tanks, and Industrial/Forestry/Agro Modded mechs.

Thunderbolts comes in 2 versions one off weapons bolted on like Rocket Launchers, and their superior versions Thunderbolt 5/10/15/20 which was built for Solaris 7 but started getting used for actual combat.

[FupDup]

Shadowomega1, on 10 April 2019 - 05:07 PM, said:

You put Chem Lasers in that list? Their just ammo based version of the normal lasers, same tonnage, same slots. Their only purpose was for Machines that didn't use fusion engines, IE most tanks, and Industrial/Forestry/Agro Modded mechs.

In MWO their purpose would be to let Clan mechs have low-heat low-duration lasers without having to entirely rework the existing ER/pulse/heavy lasers. E-Z.

[Wil McCullough]

cheapcamper, on 10 April 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

It adds the option of accurate mid range hitscan weapon with its shorter beam duration and increased range, as well as increased dps( as pulse lasers recycle faster then er lasers) for lights and medium so they can have effective hit and run at mid range( not all light mechs have tonnage tomspare for a large pulse laser who filled the same role). It could revitalised Inner sphere hardpoint starved light / medium mechs without having them overquarked just to be playable. As for balance the relative heat inefficiency compare to other IS lasers will prevent it to become the premier go to weapons form close range brawls, or being boated en masses too effectively. Not every light mech can afford 7mtons for a large pulse laser.

In a sense, the medium version will be similar role to light ppcs, except with optimum range in the 270+ to 350ish range without getting the minimum range and ideally the beam duration of 0.6- 0.9 sec to differentiate it from er medium laser as faster recycle time so dps is more consistent with its increased tonnage requirements to er med lasers. Heat will be inefficient( damage to heat ratio would be around 1 or lower) as drawback so it would not be completely op. It would share the same heat scale limit group with existing lasers to prevent exploitation but encourage mixed weapons groups for accurate damage at different optimal engagement range.

Those who said x pulse laser has no niche filled probs underlook hardpoint / tonnage starved mechs such aslights and mediums.

Give this another go before you totally shut down this idea my friend

Pulse lasers (in mwo) are heat efficient, accurate and good for dog fighting. They compromise on range compared to normal lasers to fill that niche. If you want x pulses to be just as accurate, with the same beam duration and more damage, the only way to balance them is to crank heat gen to extremely spicy levels. Which means they will have very low dps. Which means they'll be bad on "hardpoint/tonnage starved" mechs. Also mechs that want to dog fight. To get good use of them, you'll have to boat heatsinks AND the x pulses and that means the mechs you mention can't use them effectively.

Your proposed weapon is a high alpha weapon which the game already have plenty of. If you compromise by increasing beam duration, they'll just be a normal laser. Or just straight upgrades to other lasers. That's not filling a niche. That's making other weapons redundant.

The only mechs that can use your idea if x pulses effectively will be big (but nimble) laser boats like the grasshopper that can get in close to dog fighting range and still have enough tonnage to spend on heatsinks. That or they can maybe function as backup weapons on lurmboats that can use the higher burst damage to deter lights from attempting something daring.

Why do i get the feeling i've thought this through more than you lol.

[Vellron2005]

I don't even use the Clan Heavy Lasers... so Xpulse would probably go unused also..

But let's face it.. isn't laservomit strong enough?

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 10 April 2019 - 04:29 PM, said:

HAGs unlock a ton of variants for existing Clan mechs with crazy hardpoints like a Vulture with 2 lasers per side torso and a JJ Hellbringer.

new omnipods could easily exist without adding HAG though.

PGI can just release the omnipods seperately like theyve done in the past.

HAG is hardly required to add new omnipods. Nor does HAG really add anything clans dont already have. Clans already have tons of ballistics that spread damage. But only one ballistic thats PPFLD.

Not saying they shouldnt add HAG just that its not really going to change the weapon landscape any... Id rather see a new clan PPFLD ballistic weapon thats an alternative to the gauss rifle. Id certainly be okay with HAG getting added as long as it didnt preclude clans getting a PPFLD alternative to the gauss rifle

Vellron2005, on 10 April 2019 - 11:08 PM, said:

I don't even use the Clan Heavy Lasers... so Xpulse would probably go unused also..

But let's face it.. isn't laservomit strong enough?

probably right. but theres also the chance xpulse is better than ERML or LPL. in which case it would get used and just make those other weapons go unused instead.

id be okay with xpulse being added. but like I said before it doesnt really add anything to the game. And it competes with other weapons for existing design space. xpulse is just an uninspired choice for a new weapon system.

id rather see new weapons added that actually fill a void.

Shadowomega1, on 10 April 2019 - 05:07 PM, said:

You put Chem Lasers in that list? Their just ammo based version of the normal lasers, same tonnage, same slots. Their only purpose was for Machines that didn't use fusion engines, IE most tanks, and Industrial/Forestry/Agro Modded mechs.

chem lasers would be amazing in MWO.

they werent that good in tabletop because heat wasnt that oppressive in tabletop.

but in MWO heat is far more oppressive which makes chemical lasers way better.

chem lasers would be especially good on light mechs that cant take a bunch of heat sinks.

Shadowomega1, on 10 April 2019 - 05:07 PM, said:

Thunderbolts comes in 2 versions one off weapons bolted on like Rocket Launchers, and their superior versions Thunderbolt 5/10/15/20 which was built for Solaris 7 but started getting used for actual combat.

What thunderbolts would do is help give IS somewhat of an analog to ATMs.

Thunderbolts would be a fairly lethal non-IDF short to medium range guided missile system in the same vein as ATMs.

And now that PGI can give different health values to different missiles they can give the thunderbolts enough health to survive AMS.

Edited by Khobai, 11 April 2019 - 01:18 AM.

[cheapcamper]

Wil McCullough, on 10 April 2019 - 06:24 PM, said:

Pulse lasers (in mwo) are heat efficient, accurate and good for dog fighting. They compromise on range compared to normal lasers to fill that niche. If you want x pulses to be just as accurate, with the same beam duration and more damage, the only way to balance them is to crank heat gen to extremely spicy levels. Which means they will have very low dps. Which means they'll be bad on "hardpoint/tonnage starved" mechs. Also mechs that want to dog fight. To get good use of them, you'll have to boat heatsinks AND the x pulses and that means the mechs you mention can't use them effectively.

Your proposed weapon is a high alpha weapon which the game already have plenty of. If you compromise by increasing beam duration, they'll just be a normal laser. Or just straight upgrades to other lasers. That's not filling a niche. That's making other weapons redundant.

The only mechs that can use your idea if x pulses effectively will be big (but nimble) laser boats like the grasshopper that can get in close to dog fighting range and still have enough tonnage to spend on heatsinks. That or they can maybe function as backup weapons on lurmboats that can use the higher burst damage to deter lights from attempting something daring.

Why do i get the feeling i've thought this through more than you lol.

the first 10 base double heatsinks are true double heatsinks

any other additional is gimped

X pulse laser give those mechs who are rocking the 10 basic heatsinks but hardpt starved, like the spider 5d, some accurate mid range firepower for fade and run fight.

once again, you have to understand if you played enough of the light mechs in IS side.

I am sure you think it through quite deeply.

just from the prospective of alpha boats, not the hardpt starved light IS mechs

[cheapcamper]

Wil McCullough, on 10 April 2019 - 06:24 PM, said:

Pulse lasers (in mwo) are heat efficient, accurate and good for dog fighting. They compromise on range compared to normal lasers to fill that niche. If you want x pulses to be just as accurate, with the same beam duration and more damage, the only way to balance them is to crank heat gen to extremely spicy levels. Which means they will have very low dps. Which means they'll be bad on "hardpoint/tonnage starved" mechs. Also mechs that want to dog fight. To get good use of them, you'll have to boat heatsinks AND the x pulses and that means the mechs you mention can't use them effectively.

Your proposed weapon is a high alpha weapon which the game already have plenty of. If you compromise by increasing beam duration, they'll just be a normal laser. Or just straight upgrades to other lasers. That's not filling a niche. That's making other weapons redundant.

The only mechs that can use your idea if x pulses effectively will be big (but nimble) laser boats like the grasshopper that can get in close to dog fighting range and still have enough tonnage to spend on heatsinks. That or they can maybe function as backup weapons on lurmboats that can use the higher burst damage to deter lights from attempting something daring.

Why do i get the feeling i've thought this through more than you lol.

IT IS REDUNDENT on large laserboat that could avoid the face time, where as the increased heat is a drawback compare to lower facetime and range as they afford to tank.

try to land the same 1 second duration on a 151 kph jumpjetting spider vs a moving enemy alpha boat on the same component, i dunno about you, but i think 95% of the player base cant.

try to stand still to do the 1 second damage, and you will wonder why so little players play lights.

once again, I am sure you think this through really well. does not mean more options are bad if it does not fit into how you precieved this game to be played.

the additional heat would not be a problem for hardpoint starved mechs as their 10 engine double heat sink are quite efficient anyway.

[Dee Eight]

Wil McCullough, on 09 April 2019 - 11:10 PM, said:

What niche does this version if the x pulse fill? I can't figure it out. Like, in what scenario would you rather have x pulse over a standard pulse laser?

In Battletech they filled a niche of being longer ranged than the standard pulse lasers of the inner sphere. Essentially they had the same range profiles as standard small, medium and large lasers at the same weight, damage and critical slots as regular pulse lasers. The downside was they increased heat about 40-50%. Large X-pulse was 14 heat for 9 damage compared to large pulse being 10 heat for 9 damage. Medium X-pulse was 6 heat for 6 damage compared to medium pulse being 4 heat for 6 damage. Small X-pulse was 3 heat for 3 damage compared to small pulse being 2 heat for 3 damage.

This won't translate all that well to a game where most energy weapons already ignore the design rules of battletech for how much damage they do, how far they shoot, how much heat they generate, etc. The optimal range of our existing inner sphere pulse lasers is already further than the max range of them in battletech, and they already for the do more damage for less heat.

[Shadowomega1]

Khobai, on 11 April 2019 - 12:46 AM, said:

new omnipods could easily exist without adding HAG though.

PGI can just release the omnipods seperately like theyve done in the past.

HAG is hardly required to add new omnipods. Nor does HAG really add anything clans dont already have. Clans already have tons of ballistics that spread damage. But only one ballistic thats PPFLD.

Not saying they shouldnt add HAG just that its not really going to change the weapon landscape any... Id rather see a new clan PPFLD ballistic weapon thats an alternative to the gauss rifle. Id certainly be okay with HAG getting added as long as it didnt preclude clans getting a PPFLD alternative to the gauss rifle



probably right. but theres also the chance xpulse is better than ERML or LPL. in which case it would get used and just make those other weapons go unused instead.

id be okay with xpulse being added. but like I said before it doesnt really add anything to the game. And it competes with other weapons for existing design space. xpulse is just an uninspired choice for a new weapon system.

id rather see new weapons added that actually fill a void.



chem lasers would be amazing in MWO.

they werent that good in tabletop because heat wasnt that oppressive in tabletop.

but in MWO heat is far more oppressive which makes chemical lasers way better.

chem lasers would be especially good on light mechs that cant take a bunch of heat sinks.



What thunderbolts would do is help give IS somewhat of an analog to ATMs.

Thunderbolts would be a fairly lethal non-IDF short to medium range guided missile system in the same vein as ATMs.

And now that PGI can give different health values to different missiles they can give the thunderbolts enough health to survive AMS.

I pointed Thunderbolts out as you didn't specify which type. As for chem lasers I wrong their even worse than I thought.

LCL 5 tons 2 crits 8 Damage for 6 heat while having a max range of 450m with an ammo count per ton of 10!
cERML TT Value 1 ton 1 crit 7 damage 5 heat while having a max range of 450m and no ammo!
cERML MWO value 1 ton 1 crit 6.5 damage 6.5 heat optimal range 400m and no ammo.

Yea Chem lasers being viable my arse!

[FupDup]

Shadowomega1, on 11 April 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

I pointed Thunderbolts out as you didn't specify which type. As for chem lasers I wrong their even worse than I thought.

LCL 5 tons 2 crits 8 Damage for 6 heat while having a max range of 450m with an ammo count per ton of 10!
cERML TT Value 1 ton 1 crit 7 damage 5 heat while having a max range of 450m and no ammo!
cERML MWO value 1 ton 1 crit 6.5 damage 6.5 heat optimal range 400m and no ammo.

Yea Chem lasers being viable my arse!

Chem lasers would almost definitely inherent the same damage/heat/range/duration/etc. buffs that IS standard lasers got, and the ammo per ton buffs that all missile and ballistic weapons got.

[Shadowomega1]

FupDup, on 11 April 2019 - 02:28 PM, said:

Chem lasers would almost definitely inherent the same damage/heat/range/duration/etc. buffs that IS standard lasers got, and the ammo per ton buffs that all missile and ballistic weapons got.

So LL TT which has 5 tons 2 crits does 8 damage for 8 heat with a range of 450.
LL MWO is 5 tons 2 crits 9 damage for 7 heat, range of 450 duration of 1.1 seconds.

Yea Chem laser is going to be utter trash even if it inhérents the LL stats from the IS because at best it will have 20 ammo per ton after the ammo increase like all other ammo based weapons.

Oh and cERML burn time is 1.25 seconds.

Edited by Shadowomega1, 11 April 2019 - 02:43 PM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Vellron2005, on 10 April 2019 - 11:08 PM, said:

I don't even use the Clan Heavy Lasers... so Xpulse would probably go unused also..

But let's face it.. isn't laservomit strong enough?

I don't think it is ever since they nerfed clan lasers in general. My ballistic and mostly missile boats seem to out perform all of my laser vomit mechs. Clan heavy lasers kinda suck too, but I can definitely see x pulses being used on alot of IS mechs that can manage the heat well from them.

[FupDup]

Shadowomega1, on 11 April 2019 - 02:41 PM, said:

So LL TT which has 5 tons 2 crits does 8 damage for 8 heat with a range of 450.
LL MWO is 5 tons 2 crits 9 damage for 7 heat, range of 450 duration of 1.1 seconds.

Yea Chem laser is going to be utter trash even if it inhérents the LL stats from the IS because at best it will have 20 ammo per ton after the ammo increase like all other ammo based weapons.

Oh and cERML burn time is 1.25 seconds.

I would personally set the first test of Chemical Lasers to look like this:

Large Chemical Laser:
Damage: 9
Heat: 5
Range: 450
Duration: 1.0
Cooldown: 2.8
Ammo: 32 (several weapons go over 300 damage per ton right now so ~300 DPT is my baseline here)


Medium Chemical Laser:
Damage: 5
Heat: 2
Range: 270
Duration: 0.8
Cooldown: 3.0
Ammo: 60


Small Chemical Laser:
Damage: 3.25
Heat: 0.7
Range: 150
Duration: 0.65
Cooldown: 1.85
Ammo: 92

[Wil McCullough]

cheapcamper, on 11 April 2019 - 04:17 AM, said:

IT IS REDUNDENT on large laserboat that could avoid the face time, where as the increased heat is a drawback compare to lower facetime and range as they afford to tank.

try to land the same 1 second duration on a 151 kph jumpjetting spider vs a moving enemy alpha boat on the same component, i dunno about you, but i think 95% of the player base cant.

try to stand still to do the 1 second damage, and you will wonder why so little players play lights.

once again, I am sure you think this through really well. does not mean more options are bad if it does not fit into how you precieved this game to be played.

the additional heat would not be a problem for hardpoint starved mechs as their 10 engine double heat sink are quite efficient anyway.

You seem fixated on how x pulses will be good for lights with lacking energy hardpoints. No one is arguing that it won't be.

What i'm trying to get you to understand is that it will also cause a huge spike in effectiveness for larger laser boats. Your 3 xmpl spider will be adorable. The 6 xmpl grasshopper will be less adorable and actually ridiculous as a jj equipped knife fighter. The 5xpml grinner will be nuts. And that is a premier light. By buffing the bad spider, you're increasing the difference in effectiveness between it and some of the best mechs ingame, effectively making bad mechs EVEN MORE REDUNDANT.

The only real way to balance x pulse (save for not introducing it/introducing a version of it that makes it so generic it occupies no ingame weapon niche) would be ghost heat.

A ghost hit limit of 3 or lower would effectively neuter your spiders cos now they can't alpha. A ghost hit limit of 4 would mean that the heavier laser boats will just stagger their alpha 3-3 and perform just as well. That or just bring a mix of mxpls and mpls and alpha anyway. After the dust settles from the balancing, the only mech that would benefit from the x pulses (after balancing) will be the ylw.

[Khobai]

Shadowomega1, on 11 April 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

I pointed Thunderbolts out as you didn't specify which type. As for chem lasers I wrong their even worse than I thought.

LCL 5 tons 2 crits 8 Damage for 6 heat while having a max range of 450m with an ammo count per ton of 10!
cERML TT Value 1 ton 1 crit 7 damage 5 heat while having a max range of 450m and no ammo!
cERML MWO value 1 ton 1 crit 6.5 damage 6.5 heat optimal range 400m and no ammo.

Yea Chem lasers being viable my arse!

why would PGI use the battletech stats for chem lasers

they dont use the battletech stats for other types of lasers

youre just being disingenuous as to the potential of chem lasers if PGI changed their stats in the same way they did other lasers.

[cheapcamper]

Wil McCullough, on 11 April 2019 - 06:28 PM, said:

You seem fixated on how x pulses will be good for lights with lacking energy hardpoints. No one is arguing that it won't be.

What i'm trying to get you to understand is that it will also cause a huge spike in effectiveness for larger laser boats. Your 3 xmpl spider will be adorable. The 6 xmpl grasshopper will be less adorable and actually ridiculous as a jj equipped knife fighter. The 5xpml grinner will be nuts. And that is a premier light. By buffing the bad spider, you're increasing the difference in effectiveness between it and some of the best mechs ingame, effectively making bad mechs EVEN MORE REDUNDANT.

The only real way to balance x pulse (save for not introducing it/introducing a version of it that makes it so generic it occupies no ingame weapon niche) would be ghost heat.

A ghost hit limit of 3 or lower would effectively neuter your spiders cos now they can't alpha. A ghost hit limit of 4 would mean that the heavier laser boats will just stagger their alpha 3-3 and perform just as well. That or just bring a mix of mxpls and mpls and alpha anyway. After the dust settles from the balancing, the only mech that would benefit from the x pulses (after balancing) will be the ylw.

What you say do make a lot of sense, however I believe it won’t be as op when boated as long as we increase the heat produced per weapon to make it a less heat effeicient compare to regular flavour lasers. It is because engine double heat sinks are True double heat sinks with 2 heat dissipation while additional double heat sinks are not dissing heat at 2 units a sec. so any laser boat would prob be better off boating regular lasers if they can afford the FaceTime as they are heat limited, not weapon/ dos limited anyway. Well some can be alpha boats with x pulse but I supposed it’s just a different flavour of gameplay.

Once again. Your points are quite valid and yes, the better mechs will probs do better then the existing hardpoint starved underdogs, but at least introduction of such system allows more variety in playstyle and build, and revitalise exist chassis that would other wise be less viable.

[Wil McCullough]

cheapcamper, on 11 April 2019 - 07:46 PM, said:

What you say do make a lot of sense, however I believe it won’t be as op when boated as long as we increase the heat produced per weapon to make it a less heat effeicient compare to regular flavour lasers. It is because engine double heat sinks are True double heat sinks with 2 heat dissipation while additional double heat sinks are not dissing heat at 2 units a sec. so any laser boat would prob be better off boating regular lasers if they can afford the FaceTime as they are heat limited, not weapon/ dos limited anyway. Well some can be alpha boats with x pulse but I supposed it’s just a different flavour of gameplay.

Once again. Your points are quite valid and yes, the better mechs will probs do better then the existing hardpoint starved underdogs, but at least introduction of such system allows more variety in playstyle and build, and revitalise exist chassis that would other wise be less viable.

If the point is to buff outdated mechs with low number of hardpoints (like the spider), wouldn't it be better to just quirk them up? As opposed to developing a.completely new weapon just for them?

[Prototelis]

Vellron2005, on 10 April 2019 - 11:08 PM, said:

I don't even use the Clan Heavy Lasers... so Xpulse would probably go unused also..

But let's face it.. isn't laservomit strong enough?

Lol, you don't even really use lasers. How would you know?