75 replies to this topic

[Cazador88]

Like IS doesn't have enough weapon variety already, but ok let them get the x pulse but the Clans should get the HAG in exchange its only fair. Otherwise though i say we have enough weapons for the time being.

[Wil McCullough]

Prototelis, on 11 April 2019 - 09:51 PM, said:

Lol, you don't even really use lasers. How would you know?

Based on the vellron balance rules:

1. If he dies to it a lot, it needs a nerf.
2. If his opponents use it and lose to him, it's balanced.
3. If he's uses it a lot, it needs a buff.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 12 April 2019 - 05:29 AM.

[Athom83]

Prototelis, on 11 April 2019 - 09:51 PM, said:

Lol, you don't even really use lasers. How would you know?

I was going to post something similar yesterday when I first saw Vell's post, but then thought better of it. Now I wish I did.

[Khobai]

Wil McCullough, on 11 April 2019 - 08:20 PM, said:

If the point is to buff outdated mechs with low number of hardpoints (like the spider), wouldn't it be better to just quirk them up? As opposed to developing a.completely new weapon just for them?

Agreed. New weapons wont fix it. But quirks alone wont fix whats wrong with the spider 5V either.

the spider 5V will only be fixed by giving it 5 energy hardpoints AND quirks

5 energy hardpoints + quirks is the bare minimum it needs to not be unplayable trash. And even then it still wouldnt be great. It would at least be playable though.

Even if they have to remove spider variants due to overlap. Its better to have one playable spider variant than three atrociously unplayable variants.

tollas669, on 11 April 2019 - 10:41 PM, said:

Like IS doesn't have enough weapon variety already, but ok let them get the x pulse but the Clans should get the HAG in exchange its only fair. Otherwise though i say we have enough weapons for the time being.

Adding a sketchy energy weapon for IS and another spread damage ballistic for clans isnt gonna make one damn bit of difference to the current landscape of the game.

Again we need new weapons that fill voids in design space. Like lightweight ballistics (light AC, mech rifles, etc...), non-spread missile weapons (thunderbolts), and chargeup energy weapons (ppc capacitor, bombast laser, etc...). Oh and a new PPFLD ballistic for clans.

Edited by Khobai, 13 April 2019 - 01:24 PM.

[Lances107]

I am not against x pulse lasers but your argument op is absurd.

Despite the huge heat and duration numbers, the devs still nerfed the heavy large lasers. Guess what no one uses it anymore because its trash. The only thing that made someone effective was 18 points of damage. No one still has found a effective use for heavy mediums. Short range, long duration, and high heat. The only really effective heavy, and just barely mind you, is the heavy small laser.

Up top of all that the IS has some really strong weapons right now. They include Heavy gauss, and MRMS. This is just the obvious ones.

As I said above I am not against x pulse lasers but do not pretend the IS is hurting for damage these days.

[Khobai]

the problem with heavy lasers is that they needed their own unique mechanic to set them apart from other lasers. Instead PGI made heavy lasers (with the exception of the HLL) overlap the same design space as existing lasers. Only the HLL really did anything unique because it allowed for a larger alphastrike, but then it got nerfed and no longer did anything unique anymore.

Xpulse is no different. Theres too much overlap with other lasers. It will either be useless from the start or end up being too good, get nerfed, and then become useless like HLL did.

I suppose they could make Xpulse occupy a different design spawn from other lasers though. Maybe make it work like it did in mechcommander where it was more like a rapid fire laser. Thats how all pulse lasers should work IMO. Pulse lasers have never felt right in MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 13 April 2019 - 08:07 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 13 April 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

the problem with heavy lasers is that they needed their own unique mechanic to set them apart from other lasers. Instead PGI made heavy lasers (with the exception of the HLL) overlap the same design space as existing lasers. Only the HLL really did anything unique because it allowed for a larger alphastrike, but then it got nerfed and no longer did anything unique anymore.

Xpulse is no different. Theres too much overlap with other lasers. It will either be useless from the start or end up being too good, get nerfed, and then become useless like HLL did.

It would've been cool for flavor if heavy lasers created some fuzzy HUD distortion like you'd see in MW3 or MW4 if your heat was really high (this is the TT reason for their +1 to-hit penalty). The amount of distortion would scale based on the number of heavy lasers you were using simultaneously, so if you only shot like 2 HML it would be very minor but if you wanted a massive gigaspike you'd really mess up your view (probably also lose targeting information if you caused too much distortion).

In exchange this would allow the cooldown and/or duration and/or heat values of heavy lasers to come down to more comfortable levels.

Khobai, on 13 April 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

I suppose they could make Xpulse occupy a different design spawn from other lasers though. Maybe make it work like it did in mechcommander where it was more like a rapid fire laser. Thats how all pulse lasers should work IMO. Pulse lasers have never felt right in MWO.

Wouldn't it make more sense for regular pulses to be the rapid-fire design and X-pulse to be frontloaded like current MWO pulses, because X-pulses are meant to be used at greater ranges rather than committed brawls? Or maybe go full potato and make X-pulses shoot a continuous beam like MW3.

Either way it really does need to be more than just more heat for more range.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 13 April 2019 - 08:11 PM, said:

Wouldn't it make more sense for regular pulses to be the rapid-fire design and X-pulse to be frontloaded like current MWO pulses, because X-pulses are meant to be used at greater ranges rather than committed brawls? Or maybe go full potato and make X-pulses shoot a continuous beam like MW3

I think all pulses should be rapid fire. They should all work like MWLL where they have an energy bank that drains when they fire. Xpulses shouldnt be an exception. All similar type weapons should work similarly.

Xpulses firing faster would allow them to deplete their energy banks faster. Which is better for long range poking.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 13 April 2019 - 08:21 PM, said:

All similar type weapons should work similarly.

Khobai, on 13 April 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

the problem with heavy lasers is that they needed their own unique mechanic to set them apart from other lasers.

Wat.

[Cazador88]

Khobai, on 13 April 2019 - 01:16 PM, said:

Adding a sketchy energy weapon for IS and another spread damage ballistic for clans isnt gonna make one damn bit of difference to the current landscape of the game.

Again we need new weapons that fill voids in design space. Like lightweight ballistics (light AC, mech rifles, etc...), non-spread missile weapons (thunderbolts), and chargeup energy weapons (ppc capacitor, bombast laser, etc...). Oh and a new PPFLD ballistic for clans.

My point was that if they add a new weapon to one of the factions they should add one to the other one too. I guess we all know that there are plenty of people in this community who don't like to aknowledge that both factions are part of the same game.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 13 April 2019 - 08:27 PM, said:

Wat.

heavy lasers are in their own separate category from regular lasers.

just like LBX is a separate category from standard autocannons, UACs, or RACs

lasers, pulse lasers, and heavy lasers should all have their own unique mechanics. however all weapons within those subsets should be consistently similar. so all heavy lasers should work similarly for example.

it makes perfect sense for every type of laser to have its own unique mechanic like autocannons do. it was really just laziness on PGI's part that they didnt give pulse lasers and heavy lasers their own unique mechanic. And I know you understood exactly what I meant when I said similar weapons should work similarly...

pulse lasers should have an energy bank that slowly recharges and they should fire rapidly until that energy bank is depleted. to me thats what a pulse laser is: a rapid fire burst DPS laser. Thats how they worked in MWLL and it was perfect.

and heavy lasers should have their damage per tick reworked so they do more damage per tick the longer the laser burns so that they almost become PPFLD towards the end of their burn time. a heavy laser should be somewhere in between a regular laser and a PPC.

Edited by Khobai, 14 April 2019 - 08:36 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 14 April 2019 - 08:21 AM, said:

lasers, pulse lasers, and heavy lasers should all have their own unique mechanics. however all weapons within those subsets should be consistently similar. so all heavy lasers should work similarly for example.

it makes perfect sense for every type of laser to have its own unique mechanic like autocannons do. it was really just laziness on PGI's part that they didnt give pulse lasers and heavy lasers their own unique mechanic. And I know you understood exactly what I meant when I said similar weapons should work similarly...

My point was that x-pulse lasers using the same mechanics as other weapons would make it way harder to differentiate them without causing overlap. And you said this yourself before, but now suddenly you want them to use the same mechanic as normal pulses (faster "energy bank" depletion is basically the same mechanic at the end of the day).

As a side note on the whole "similar weapons" thing, saying that a HML and HLL should work the same is not the same as saying that an LPL and LXPL should work the same. In the former case you're dealing with two weapons in the same family (heavy lasers). In the latter case the standard pulse and X-pulse are in fact two separate (but related) families. They're the same family as much as the AC/5, LB 5-X, UAC/5, and RAC/5 are just because they're all autocannons with the class-5 designation.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 14 April 2019 - 09:09 AM, said:

My point was that x-pulse lasers using the same mechanics as other weapons would make it way harder to differentiate them without causing overlap. And you said this yourself before, but now suddenly you want them to use the same mechanic as normal pulses (faster "energy bank" depletion is basically the same mechanic at the end of the day).

As a side note on the whole "similar weapons" thing, saying that a HML and HLL should work the same is not the same as saying that an LPL and LXPL should work the same. In the former case you're dealing with two weapons in the same family (heavy lasers). In the latter case the standard pulse and X-pulse are in fact two separate (but related) families. They're the same family as much as the AC/5, LB 5-X, UAC/5, and RAC/5 are just because they're all autocannons with the class-5 designation.

Nah xpulses::pulse lasers as er lasers::lasers. an xpulse is literally just an erpulse. xpulse does not belong in an entirely different family of weapons from regular pulse lasers; just like how you wouldnt put er medium lasers in an entirely different family of weapons from medium lasers. its just a longer range version of the same weapon, but its not different enough to be in a different family entirely.

the three families of laser weapons are standard lasers, pulse lasers, and heavy lasers.

just like the families for autocannons are standard ACs, UACs, RACs, and LBX.

PGI should give each of those weapon families their own unique mechanic. for the most part they do have their own mechanics, PGI just got lazy with pulse lasers and heavy lasers...

FupDup, on 14 April 2019 - 09:09 AM, said:

As a side note on the whole "similar weapons" thing, saying that a HML and HLL should work the same is not the same as saying that an LPL and LXPL should work the same.

they absolutely should work the same. because LPL and LXPL are in the same family. having extra range doesnt mean the xpulse belongs in a different family. its literally just a LPL with longer range. Think of it like a sidegrade or variation on the base weapon. Thats basically what it is: more range for more heat. It even has the same exact weight and crit slots. Its literally no different from ER medium lasers vs medium lasers.

which is exactly why xpulse is an uninspired choice for a new weapon. because it occupies the same design space as regular lasers which are already the type of laser with more range than pulse lasers.

however if the entire pulse laser family was given its own unique mechanic there probably would be a design space for xpulse then... pulse lasers just have to be given a unique mechanic thats different from regular lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 14 April 2019 - 09:33 AM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Khobai, on 14 April 2019 - 08:21 AM, said:

pulse lasers should have an energy bank that slowly recharges and they should fire rapidly until that energy bank is depleted. to me thats what a pulse laser is: a rapid fire burst DPS laser. Thats how they worked in MWLL and it was perfect.

For IS X pulse lasers yes. In MW:LL IS X pulses worked just fine. I thought it was an interesting mechanic how you could hold down the fire button and it would halt your heat sinks until you ran hot. Everything else should remain the same in MW:O. My only complaint about pulse lasers in MW:O is that large pulse lasers don't do enough damage. I would like to see an overall global slight range buff, but honestly ERcLPL's would remedy that request if the IS got their x pulses.

[Wil McCullough]

Khobai, on 13 April 2019 - 01:16 PM, said:

Agreed. New weapons wont fix it. But quirks alone wont fix whats wrong with the spider 5V either.

the spider 5V will only be fixed by giving it 5 energy hardpoints AND quirks

5 energy hardpoints + quirks is the bare minimum it needs to not be unplayable trash. And even then it still wouldnt be great. It would at least be playable though.

Even if they have to remove spider variants due to overlap. Its better to have one playable spider variant than three atrociously unplayable variants.



Adding a sketchy energy weapon for IS and another spread damage ballistic for clans isnt gonna make one damn bit of difference to the current landscape of the game.

Again we need new weapons that fill voids in design space. Like lightweight ballistics (light AC, mech rifles, etc...), non-spread missile weapons (thunderbolts), and chargeup energy weapons (ppc capacitor, bombast laser, etc...). Oh and a new PPFLD ballistic for clans.

It is possible to crank quirks up to stupid levels since quirks let pgi balance mech chassis individually. 30% lower heat gen, 30% laser duration etc. I don't think anyone will be upset seeing the spider get quirks like that. Other than in solaris and no.one plays solaris.

[Khobai]

yeah but then were bringing back the lopsided superquirks

like when the dragon had +100% rate of fire on AC5s or whatever. that was so dumb.

superquirks have no place in the game. its better just to give the spider 5V a hardpoint update.