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Gabriel Vs Savannah Master


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#21 Karl Streiger

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:38 PM

View Postevilauthor, on 15 April 2019 - 10:02 PM, said:


I think one of the later TRs mentioned that the Savannah Master was put being produced again once the Inner Sphere relearned how to make fusion engines. But they're still not being made in the kind of numbers necessary to swarm an enemy, nor were they ever intended to do that.

Swarming can be done good enough with the Hover APC or a Harasser, sure not as small as a SaMa or Gabriel but with turret and range (LRM variants) and decent speed. You also get the positive side effect that you don't need to turn so you can use the full speed without danger of skidding - especially in close terrain (BT standard map is such a map)

#22 Koniving

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 12:09 AM

View Postevilauthor, on 15 April 2019 - 10:02 PM, said:


I think one of the later TRs mentioned that the Savannah Master was put being produced again once the Inner Sphere relearned how to make fusion engines. But they're still not being made in the kind of numbers necessary to swarm an enemy, nor were they ever intended to do that.


Jihad era it starts back up.

Lewis the guy that designed it only had 2,000 engines and they weren't made anymore.

#23 evilauthor

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 06:44 AM

View PostKoniving, on 16 April 2019 - 12:09 AM, said:

Jihad era it starts back up.

Lewis the guy that designed it only had 2,000 engines and they weren't made anymore.


That was because the original 2000 engines were a lostech find. The Inner Sphere could still MAKE new fusion engines at the time, but couldn't design new ones during the original SM's production run.

That changed by the Jihad era which was basically an era of "Throw **** at the wall and see what works". I mean hell, if you're going to pull out mechs so outdated that the Great Houses during the depths of the Succession Wars didn't want to use them despite having them, it's not so surprising that someone would start making engines for Savannah Masters again.

#24 Requiemking

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 08:11 AM

Well, that was an interesting read. How fares things against the Gabriels? I'm curious to know how that goes.

#25 Koniving

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 08:50 AM

View Postevilauthor, on 16 April 2019 - 06:44 AM, said:


That was because the original 2000 engines were a lostech find. The Inner Sphere could still MAKE new fusion engines at the time, but couldn't design new ones during the original SM's production run.

That changed by the Jihad era which was basically an era of "Throw **** at the wall and see what works". I mean hell, if you're going to pull out mechs so outdated that the Great Houses during the depths of the Succession Wars didn't want to use them despite having them, it's not so surprising that someone would start making engines for Savannah Masters again.

I know. The Omni factory that produced them pretty much had something happen to it and an engine of that specific size efficiency wasn't happening. Any other Omni engine of the same power was, in terms of fluff, less efficient and somewhat larger. About the only thing they could do at the time was make a bigger craft like the Gabriel (sort of defeating the purpose of Lewis's vision) or change out to something heavier, which meant overall the entire thing would have to increase in weight creating diminishing returns.

The Fox Armored Car is one such thing, they were able to keep its small size but its weight significantly increased. They put some of that weight to good use, of course, but the expense, the power output of the engine necessary to make it run, the fuel economy of the XL 195 engine, the fragility...and of course it was prior to the fedcom civil war it was developed and not until the jihad that it was ever built en masse.

Posted Image
Course, the original 2000 is what was made because that's all he had with his share. There were more Omni-25 engines out there but most people sold theirs to retire early. Getting a replacement engine wasn't impossible, just really unlikely as chances were they were put into something else. Its also possible Lewis would have built more if someone brought him a supply of engines. Most likely that's when the SL variant comes into place in 3033, upping its damage potential butt the lack of range crippled it so that was a short production run.

But between the two fluff elements, it doesn't go into any kind of real mass production until... apparently sometime during the Clan invasion (going by availability in the MUL). 3077, when the named variation "Interdictor" comes out, is well into mass production.

#26 Koniving

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 09:44 AM

I'm not sure where the best place to put this is, but all the usual suspects are reading this as much as the other active threads, so..

So while not directly related, I thought this was interesting.

Afterall, Battletech is filled with fluff about competing companies creating things...and sometimes those things have flaws.

Whether its the Fox Armored Car, the Savannah Master against the Gabriel, the Kali-Yama Crucis Type V Hunchback 4 and 5 series "classic" remake versus the original Komiyaba/Nissan Komiyaba type VII Hunchback 4 series... Some things get gained and loss in the process.

In the case of the Hunchback, being able to refit them with the common refit kits went out the window, but in return those slightly larger Crucis Type V were much easier to incorporate things such as CASE, XL engines, double heatsinks... After all it had enough room to fit one ton of ammunition inside without the drum, where the Komiyaba could not physically fit the ammunition inside the mech and so it had a drum to carry 2 tons attached to the back left shoulder. The 4SP used a smaller drum attached to the center torso. Crucis's model slaps a 1 ton drum on the back left shoulder for the 5N, and the "classic" puts the two tons into a drum leaving the room necessary for upgrades such as DHS, engine, etc.

But, sometimes the difference is fatal, and here's a real life example of this.



One of the things I really like about Battletech, is that its fluff between variants and such isn't always "this is simply better than the last thing," during FASA's time it likes to point out that not every new iteration is a perfect improvement. Somethings are flat out worse, some are marginally better, and sometimes a move is just a competitive edge without conveying the full story.

#27 Koniving

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 12:29 PM

So, for anyone interested...

These were the first two good maps I considered for the Savannah Master battle, thinking it would have been more mobile than the battle actually was.
Posted Image
Trouble with this one, is among being double blind, the AI flat out crashed... and I kinda thought to myself while it was easy to find again, the fact is the three further times I tried it, the AI crashed on the first move. Its a huge map, the Aggressive AI was given free rain to spawn on any edge (with deep deployment)... and it just couldn't decide what to do because it was double blind in order to make the encounter seem more natural, with one or two first encountering me and then the swarm coming in as my location is communicated to the rest of them and they rush to me. Yeah, AI and double blind on huge maps doesn't work.
Yellow line was my spawn zone for "South". I spawned on the road. The one time I was able to get a move in before the AI crash, I slipped on my ***.

So change of plans!
Posted Image
This one seemed much smaller, more manageable and still pretty ideal.
But as we know, something happened because this isn't where I wound up playing. The Aggressive AI flat out quit in the first round. I'm not kidding, as soon as I made my first move, the AggressiveBot flat out "Left the match!" I couldn't find the map again. To be fair though, it had to wait two turns to get a first unit on the ground. Kinda...kinda decided against that.

Then I settled on this one and kept note as to where it was and paranoid-saved before launching which helped out a lot until I worked out the "rage quit" bot issue. Finally learned the easiest way to handle it was to have a Megamek app open for each bot, and to "connect as bot", this enhances the memory the bot can use, and when the bot crashes it tells me and I can put in a couple of commands to "recreate" the bot back at the helm of its units.
Posted Image
This time, I spawned in the North with the goal to head south.
Now from here, the fight!
Spoiler

Edited by Koniving, 18 April 2019 - 12:30 PM.






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