115 replies to this topic

[Alienized]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 April 2019 - 08:57 AM, said:

Still, I don't think knocking down the cooldown on LPPCs a tad would be outrageous.

no it wouldnt but i wish people would actually care more about building more balanced loadouts than screaming for nerfs/buffs all day long.

thats where min/maxing always starts and its a one way road leading to more weapons beeing undervalued and the nerf/buff cycle starts again.
thats not how a game will EVER be balanced.

[Y E O N N E]

I actually want the cool-down on LPPCs reduced specifically so it pairs better with ballistics like UAC/5.

[Alienized]

Y E O N N E, on 19 April 2019 - 11:29 AM, said:

I actually want the cool-down on LPPCs reduced specifically so it pairs better with ballistics like UAC/5.

you want l ppc's sync with the jamming too?

[Y E O N N E]

Alienized, on 19 April 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

you want l ppc's sync with the jamming too?

Please make more sense with your comments.

[Alienized]

Y E O N N E, on 19 April 2019 - 11:54 AM, said:

Please make more sense with your comments.

you want those to sync with your comments as well?

[Khobai]

faster cooldown on the LPPC is fine.

but they also need to get rid of the zero damage deadzone on all PPCs, its not a fun game mechanic at all.

the only reason the min range exists in tabletop is because fasa was concerned PPCs would make smaller lasers obsolete if PPCs didnt have a min range. But small lasers are already obsolete in MWO so thats not a problem.

Edited by Khobai, 20 April 2019 - 09:35 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Nothing that can fit PPCs is going to really run small lasers anyway outside of meme Locusts, lol.

[R Valentine]

All IS PPCs suck. HPPCs are OK on mega quirked heat mechs, but other than that they're garbage. ERPPCs are way too hot, LPPCs don't do enough damage, and snub nose PPC are also way too hot. Only the PPC is actually efficient, and it still gets the minimum range nerf.

[ingramli]

Poor cooldown, poor damage to heat ratio and low damage per ton screwed the whole PPC family IMHO. It is good at doing poptart, but bad at literally everything else, unless you really want to specialize in poptart, there are better options for your tonnage....

Edited by ingramli, 21 April 2019 - 07:36 AM.

[Alienized]

you are simply using them wrong. all i say about ppc's.

[Y E O N N E]

Nah, they do suck, especially IS. ERs too hot, take ERLL. Standards only really useful if you can't bring more dakka but still want PPFLD. Lights, same story. Snubs, just don't. Heavies, OK-ish.

[Khobai]

I dont believe the problem with PPCs is heat. PPCs are supposed to be incredibly hot face melting weapons.

Reducing the heat on PPCs is uncharacteristic of what makes them PPCs: heat. Its just like all those people that want Gauss to generate heat... Its uncharacteristic for Gauss to generate heat. Youre just taking away a defining property of the weapon.

PPCs should not have anywhere near the same damage per heat efficiency as lasers. Instead PPCs should run super hot but be worth the heat in other ways besides damage per heat efficiency. Or maybe even give all PPCs splash damage characteristics like the CERPPC has.

I would rather see PPCs fixed by adding/increasing their splash damage, getting rid of their dumb zero damage deadzones, and giving PPCs the ability to disrupt HUDs/sensors. And maybe have a min range with linear damage dropoff on the ERPPC just so theres more incentive to use regular PPCs. That keeps them truly separate from lasers instead of just vanillabeaning them to be more like lasers.

I also think the PPC capacitor would be pretty integral in keeping PPCs different from other weapons. PGI really needs to add that to the game.

Edited by Khobai, 21 April 2019 - 05:49 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 21 April 2019 - 05:30 PM, said:

I dont believe the problem with PPCs is heat. PPCs are supposed to be incredibly hot face melting weapons.

Reducing the heat on PPCs is uncharacteristic of what makes them PPCs: heat. Its just like all those people that want Gauss to generate heat... Its uncharacteristic for Gauss to generate heat. Youre taking away a property of the weapon that differentiates it from other weapons.

I would rather see PPCs fixed by increasing their damage, getting rid of their dumb zero damage deadzones,. and giving PPCs the ability to disrupt HUDs.

There is a fine line between PPCs being hotter than lasers, and being OMGWTFBBQ levels of hot.

And yes the Goose Waffle should generate some heat of its own too. Its heatless nature has been a major issue with balancing it in the past (combining so easily with PPCs and lasers, greatly increasing your long range damage output without having any effect on your heat output). Its differentiation is the charge-up mechanism. Heatless damage is already the realm of MGs.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 21 April 2019 - 05:30 PM, said:

I dont believe the problem with PPCs is heat. PPCs are supposed to be incredibly hot face melting weapons.

Reducing the heat on PPCs is uncharacteristic of what makes them PPCs: heat. Its just like all those people that want Gauss to generate heat... Its uncharacteristic for Gauss to generate heat. Youre just taking away a defining property of the weapon.

PPCs should not be "heat efficient". Instead they should run super hot but actually be worth the heat.

I would rather see PPCs fixed by increasing their damage, getting rid of their dumb zero damage deadzones, and giving PPCs the ability to disrupt HUDs. And maybe have a min range with linear damage dropoff on the ERPPC just so theres more incentive to use regular PPCs.

It's heat.

Heat feeds into everything.

Even the min-range issue is less of an issue with less heat.

[Khobai]

Y E O N N E, on 21 April 2019 - 05:41 PM, said:

It's heat.

Heat feeds into everything.

Even the min-range issue is less of an issue with less heat.

I dont entirely disagree with you. Heat does feed into everything. And for other weapons lowering their heat is certainly an option for improving them.

But PPCs are supposed to be HOT. Its one of their defining characteristics.

Making them less HOT makes them feel less like PPCs. Just like giving Gauss heat would make it feel less like Gauss.

Im not saying PPCs should be bad though. Im saying they should be good but they should also stay HOT.

Theres other ways to make weapons better that dont involve lowering their heat. Theres even ways to make weapons better that dont involve changing numerical stat values. You can also give weapons non-quantifiable properties like giving PPCs the ability to disrupt HUDs or maybe even give PPCs the ability to do EMP damage to mechs (EMP damage could temporarily disable certain weapons/equipments on mechs)

FupDup, on 21 April 2019 - 05:38 PM, said:

And yes the Goose Waffle should generate some heat of its own too. Its heatless nature has been a major issue with balancing it in the past

no it shouldnt because the whole thing that makes it different from other weapons is that it doesnt generate heat.

the problem with gauss isnt that it doesnt generate heat. the problem with gauss is that it doesnt have a big enough drawback to counter the fact it doesnt generate heat. and without an appropriate drawback its way too good in combination with energy weapons. the tradeoffs simply arnt proportional to what you gain.

for example just making clan gauss do like 13 damage instead of 15 damage would be a fine tradeoff for the fact it weighs 3 less tons than the IS version. No need to increase the heat.

changing heat values is not always the best way to fix weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 21 April 2019 - 06:14 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 21 April 2019 - 05:52 PM, said:

no it shouldnt because the whole thing that makes it different from other weapons is that it doesnt generate heat.

Machine Gun said:

Am I a joke to you?

Khobai, on 21 April 2019 - 05:52 PM, said:

the problem with gauss isnt that it doesnt generate heat. the problem with gauss is that it didnt have a big enough drawback to counter the fact it doesnt generate heat. and without an appropriate drawback it was way too good in combination with energy weapons. the tradeoffs simply werent proportional to what you gained.

for example just making clan gauss do like 13 damage instead of 15 damage would be a fine tradeoff for the fact it weighs 3 less tons than the IS version.

Balancing the IS vs. Clan Gauss is an entirely separate concern from Gauss vs. other weapons in general. The charge-less Gauss was basically an ER AC/15. The charge-up is what ultimately made it truly different from other ballistics.


I don't want to get too far off-topic on the Gauss Rifle tangent though. I shouldn't have taken the bait. For the PPC itself what actually makes it different is the fact that it's the only PPFLD energy weapon. Anything else is secondary. I do fully believe PPCs should always have lower damage per heat than lasers, but heat alone would not make PPCs different from lasers if PPCs lost their PPFLD advantage.

If PPCs were a duration-based weapon you could double the heat on each PPC model but they would just be inferior lasers. The reason for their heat is because of their PPFLD nature.

Edited by FupDup, 21 April 2019 - 06:45 PM.

[cougurt]

they'd still be hot even if you dropped their heat by about 1 point, it would just make it so you might actually consider using them on mechs that aren't super quirked. i'm all for experimenting with things like the minimum range or a HUD disruption effect, but no matter what you do i think the heat is always going to be the main thing that holds them back.

[Y E O N N E]

So, here's the deal:

If we want PPCs to be hot to offset being powerful, they first need to be powerful. Firing them needs to be an event with a correspondingly potent conclusion. This will never happen as long as they are 10 damage, each. As long as they have the damage they currently do, at the ranges they currently do, and with the cooldowns they currently do, they will forever get out-classed by LPLs, AC/10s, or simply stacked Medium-class lasers. No amount of fancy HUD effects will do this, and even a min-range removal won't do this.

I mean, let's say we removed min-range on the PPC. What does this accomplish? It means I can bring an IS 'Mech which can sling PPCs more similarly to a WHK now, without having to cripple myself up close. This outcome is a direct function of the fact that PPCs are colder than ERPPCs and nothing else; reducing ERPPC heat to the same degree would have the same result, and actually be more even since the ERPPC would also match range if not damage output.

Unless we're willing to let PPCs be more singularly potent, doing bigger damage per shot commensurate with how hot they run, they are not going to be popular choices unless we reduce the heat. The other alternative is to nerf everything else in the game and, while I'm not inherently opposed to re-jiggering all of MWO, that amount of work isn't necessary just to make PPCs good.

[cougurt]

Y E O N N E, on 21 April 2019 - 06:26 PM, said:

The other alternative is to nerf everything else in the game and, while I'm not inherently opposed to re-jiggering all of MWO, that amount of work isn't necessary just to make PPCs good.

and given PGI's history of completely missing the mark even with singular, targeted changes, it's probably best to keep the number of variables to a minimum.

we're still recovering from the mess they made around the time that the skill tree was introduced.

Edited by cougurt, 21 April 2019 - 06:49 PM.

[Alienized]

so want to have 3 er ppc no ghost heat mechs all time again? wasnt the thunderbolt too much already?
there you go, 3 er ppc awesomes and nighstars all day long

just stop comparing them to other weapons all damn time.
ffs i used a 2 ac2/3 LPPC/mrm20 victor dragonslayer earlier and got nearly 800 dmg >_>
"could do this, could do that" NO ! i want to have different stuff and not same ol boredom.
if you are bored, change things up and dont give a damn if something is slightly better.

i even use a 2 heavy ppc firebrand quite well, combined with mlas and mg's
i bet if i can do that alot more people can do IF THEY ONLY GIVE IT A GO!