115 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

FupDup, on 22 April 2019 - 04:58 PM, said:

If you want a PPC that heats up enemies wait for the Plasma Rifle.

When is that coming?

In the meantime, PGI can get creative -- within reason.

Y E O N N E, on 22 April 2019 - 05:01 PM, said:

Because heat effects are what Plasma weapons are for and EMP effects will not have any appreciable impact short of straight-up turning off the HUD, which will frustrate and alienate people from the game even more than the existing mechanics do.

Frustrate and alienate? You just basically admitted that much of this playerbase is a wholly whiny bunch. I say **** them. They're the reason we cannot have nice things.

Edited by Mystere, 22 April 2019 - 06:37 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 22 April 2019 - 06:35 PM, said:

Frustrate and alienate? You just basically admitted that much of this playerbase is a wholly whiny bunch. I say **** them. They're the reason we cannot have nice things.

Nobody to play with means nobody gets to play. I don't make the rules. /shrug

[Alienized]

Y E O N N E, on 22 April 2019 - 05:06 PM, said:

Doesn't matter what it is to you, what matters is whether or not there is a mechanical justification to bring it. PPFLD builds can't hack it against lasers or dakka in their current state without ridiculous quirks and PPCs aren't at all competent at anything else, so something has to give.



The Firebrand is slightly above average. Its main weakness these days is the stupidly under-armored arms that PGI gave it, its torsos are plenty durable and it has the right mix of energy and ballistic hardpoints and quirks to bring sufficiently threatening firepower. AC/10s and MedLas, LGauss and ERMedLas, Gauss and mixed lasers, all lasers, PPCs and ballistics...it can do them all with above-average proficiency.

isnt that why we actually have quirks? to give mechs the roles they actually had? i agree, some mechs needed the over quirking as they arent suited for games like this (hello highlander ) but even mechs like stalker and battlemaster that have perfekt hardpoints got quirked.

i mean, why does the IV4 quickdraw has the quirks it has? you think those are justified?
alot of laserbuilds wouldnt work without their quirks either. too much heat reduction and beam duration quirks on mechs with very good hardpoints along with their structure/armor buffed)
some mechs just shouldnt have the amount of quirks anymore. that would at least bring some mechs back to relevance.

i also would like to note that some weapon systems and mechs only exist because they been built for their role or even to use that specific weapon system. we dont necessarily have these roles here so the quirks are in place. (AA mechs like the jaeger/rifleman/highlanders should have a much better standard sensor capability than what they have here for example).

totally agree on the arms of the jaegers tho. what i do notice is that they get shot randomly and not focused out tho as most know its an XL mech anyway and a proper loadout stil has weapons in the torso (4 mlas can still do good dmg).

[Bud Crue]

Alienized, on 23 April 2019 - 01:26 AM, said:

isnt that why we actually have quirks? to give mechs the roles they actually had? i agree, some mechs needed the over quirking as they arent suited for games like this (hello highlander ) but even mechs like stalker and battlemaster that have perfekt hardpoints got quirked.

Chris has mentioned over the last couple of years how he sees quirks. There are those applied to mechs to compensate for bad design, inherent defects, etc. Examples are defensive quirks to make up for terrible hit boxes or low engine cap or poor agility, etc. Then there are what he calls “flavor” quirks that are typically applied to give a mech some sort of “lore” flavor or to make a stock build viable. Examples here are rule of 8 quirks and the recent +HSL quirks. Chris has also mentioned on multiple occasions how he views most quirks which actually “force” an optimal build on a mech, act as a barrier to entry, or act in a way the limits diversity and player choice to be a bad thing which ought to be avoided. And while Paul once asserted that quirks were supposed to be about giving each variant a viable “role”, that has, as far as I can recall never been really high on Chris’s goals for quirk application; for him it seems to be about essentially two things: mitigation and some sort of flavor as dictated by lore or whim.

Alienized, on 23 April 2019 - 01:26 AM, said:

i mean, why does the IV4 quickdraw has the quirks it has? you think those are justified?
alot of laserbuilds wouldnt work without their quirks either. too much heat reduction and beam duration quirks on mechs with very good hardpoints along with their structure/armor buffed)
some mechs just shouldnt have the amount of quirks anymore. that would at least bring some mechs back to relevance.

i also would like to note that some weapon systems and mechs only exist because they been built for their role or even to use that specific weapon system. we dont necessarily have these roles here so the quirks are in place. (AA mechs like the jaeger/rifleman/highlanders should have a much better standard sensor capability than what they have here for example).

totally agree on the arms of the jaegers tho. what i do notice is that they get shot randomly and not focused out tho as most know its an XL mech anyway and a proper loadout stil has weapons in the torso (4 mlas can still do good dmg).

IV-4 was originally given its giga quirks because it was so hard point limited, and required an XL to utilize most of them. When skill tree dropped it actually lost a bit of its baseline offensive quirks. When it became apparent that MRMs would actually make the thing a viable threat PGI attempted to exchange the armor quirks for structure and folks (like me) went ballistic and PGI back peddled and claimed the switch was an error. Since then some folks (like me) have expected at least a pull back of its offensive missile quirks but for whatever reason PGI leaves it alone. But all this history doesn’t really change the fact that the IV-4 in its MWO embodiment is a made up mech, made for whatever “role” PGI decides it ought to have (a “ must have real $ purchase?) and its quirks apparently reflect that role.

I hate what they have done to Jaggers arms.

Edited by Bud Crue, 23 April 2019 - 01:52 AM.

[Alienized]

Bud Crue, on 23 April 2019 - 01:51 AM, said:

Chris has mentioned over the last couple of years how he sees quirks. There are those applied to mechs to compensate for bad design, inherent defects, etc. Examples are defensive quirks to make up for terrible hit boxes or low engine cap or poor agility, etc. Then there are what he calls “flavor” quirks that are typically applied to give a mech some sort of “lore” flavor or to make a stock build viable. Examples here are rule of 8 quirks and the recent +HSL quirks. Chris has also mentioned on multiple occasions how he views most quirks which actually “force” an optimal build on a mech, act as a barrier to entry, or act in a way the limits diversity and player choice to be a bad thing which ought to be avoided. And while Paul once asserted that quirks were supposed to be about giving each variant a viable “role”, that has, as far as I can recall never been really high on Chris’s goals for quirk application; for him it seems to be about essentially two things: mitigation and some sort of flavor as dictated by lore or whim.



IV-4 was originally given its giga quirks because it was so hard point limited, and required an XL to utilize most of them. When skill tree dropped it actually lost a bit of its baseline offensive quirks. When it became apparent that MRMs would actually make the thing a viable threat PGI attempted to exchange the armor quirks for structure and folks (like me) went ballistic and PGI back peddled and claimed the switch was an error. Since then some folks (like me) have expected at least a pull back of its offensive missile quirks but for whatever reason PGI leaves it alone. But all this history doesn’t really change the fact that the IV-4 in its MWO embodiment is a made up mech, made for whatever “role” PGI decides it ought to have (a “ must have real $ purchase?) and its quirks apparently reflect that role.

I hate what they have done to Jaggers arms.

so, chris obviously likes laservomit

[Y E O N N E]

Alienized, on 23 April 2019 - 01:26 AM, said:

isnt that why we actually have quirks? to give mechs the roles they actually had? i agree, some mechs needed the over quirking as they arent suited for games like this (hello highlander ) but even mechs like stalker and battlemaster that have perfekt hardpoints got quirked.

No, actually, that's not why we have quirks. We have quirks because PGI is legitimately aware that the base stats on IS equipment are cripplingly bad and, instead of making them actually good on 'Mechs that do everything right from a hardpoint and geo perspective, they decided to leave them terrible and give us this dartboard balance system where a 'Mech is only good if it has those inherent advantages AND the right quirks to go with them.

There is nothing stopping them from letting the base values be good and then also augmenting a 'Mech further to enhance it into a specialized role for flavor.

Quote

i mean, why does the IV4 quickdraw has the quirks it has? you think those are justified?

IV4s were trash even with that armor before MRMs became a thing, and even now they aren't amazing against competent players UNLESS you are playing in an environment where you can mass drop them (e.g. Faction Play, which is a whole different ballgame that needs to be balanced differently).

Quote

alot of laserbuilds wouldnt work without their quirks either. too much heat reduction and beam duration quirks on mechs with very good hardpoints along with their structure/armor buffed)
some mechs just shouldnt have the amount of quirks anymore. that would at least bring some mechs back to relevance.

Name them. I can't think of any good IS laser builds that aren't graced with decent quirks outside of the Locust 1E, and even that one is not at all the 'Mech it could be and used to be.

The premiere IS laser 'Mechs are WHM-6D, GHR-5H, TDR-5S-T, TDR-5SS, RGH-3A, BL-7-KNT, BL-6B-KNT, RFL-5D, CPLT-J, HBK-4P, BJ-1X, BJ-3, UZL-6P, WLF-2, JVN-11A, and FLE-17. Every single one of them has significant quirks. If it's not firepower, it's hefty armor. Often it's solid firepower and moderate armor or structure.

Quote

i also would like to note that some weapon systems and mechs only exist because they been built for their role or even to use that specific weapon system. we dont necessarily have these roles here so the quirks are in place. (AA mechs like the jaeger/rifleman/highlanders should have a much better standard sensor capability than what they have here for example).

See my opening statement.

Quote

totally agree on the arms of the jaegers tho. what i do notice is that they get shot randomly and not focused out tho as most know its an XL mech anyway and a proper loadout stil has weapons in the torso (4 mlas can still do good dmg).

The Jager needed its torso armor quirked, not to have its arm armor re-allocated to torso.

When the RFL-IIC hits, the JM6-DD will be out of a job and a niche because of it.

[Mystere]

Y E O N N E, on 23 April 2019 - 05:39 PM, said:

The Jager needed its torso armor quirked, not to have its arm armor re-allocated to torso.

When the RFL-IIC hits, the JM6-DD will be out of a job and a niche because of it.

If the Jager becomes good, who's going to buy the RFL-IIC?

Edited by Mystere, 23 April 2019 - 05:56 PM.

[Alienized]

can we go back to this pls.

[R Valentine]

Khobai, on 22 April 2019 - 04:28 PM, said:

Hes not wrong though. If you decrease the heat and increase the velocity on PPCs literally all you will see is people using PPCs.

He is absolutely wrong and so are you. We dont' even see cERPPCs everywhere even though they're by far the best PPCs out there. So making the ISPPCs better certainly isn't going to make them "all you ever see". This isn't the past. We've long since left the past meta behind and even if PPCs were as good as they used to be they wouldn't suddenly bring a past meta back when so many other weapons and mechs have been added. You're cowering from past scars. Move forward.

[BrunoSSace]

If ppc are good Why don't we see more dual throwing ppc panthers?.
Why isn't my Xl 375 4 jumpjet dual Hppc Thanny meta?
Why are IS Erppc so mother#@%$# footing hot?
Small buffs would be nice.

[Alienized]

its only because you know nothing else but boating.
*shrugs

oh and ER PPC's are situational weapons. you dont need that range improvement anyway over normal ppc's.

Edited by Alienized, 23 April 2019 - 07:57 PM.

[BrunoSSace]

Alienized, on 23 April 2019 - 07:55 PM, said:

its only because you know nothing else but boating.
*shrugs

oh and ER PPC's are situational weapons. you dont need that range improvement anyway over normal ppc's.

This is MWO, the whole game is about boating, if you haven't noticed? No one goes 2 small lasers, 2 mediums and 2 medium pulse. its not table top. Its a shooting game.
If you don't boat, you are at a major disadvantage. Plus the whole current skill tree system rewards boating.

For example 4 srm6 are alot better then 3 srm6 and 2 lasors.

Edited by BrunoSSace, 23 April 2019 - 08:03 PM.

[Alienized]

BrunoSSace, on 23 April 2019 - 08:02 PM, said:

This is MWO, the whole game is about boating, if you haven't noticed? No one goes 2 small lasers, 2 mediums and 2 medium pulse. its not table top. Its a shooting game.
If you don't boat, you are at a major disadvantage. Plus the whole current skill tree system rewards boating.

For example 4 srm6 are alot better then 3 srm6 and 2 lasors.

im sorry that your point of view is that limited. i dont boat and dont have to.
but it surely limits your weapons and mechs played. might want to expand your horizon a bit.

just had a battle with my 3 er ppc/2 ac2 nightstar. cant complain, 940 dmg on forest colony.

[BrunoSSace]

Wow ok, good to see we can't have a good conversation with out an insult. That's definitely going to get people to see it your way. Slow clap. Yeah I'm done here.

[Alienized]

BrunoSSace, on 23 April 2019 - 08:13 PM, said:

Wow ok, good to see we can't have a good conversation with out an insult. That's definitely going to get people to see it your way. Slow clap. Yeah I'm done here.

not an insult, just a fact.

https://mech.nav-alp...ee6208d2_NSR-9J

use this for your nightstar-9J and play more tactical/strategical.

Edited by Alienized, 23 April 2019 - 08:24 PM.

[Khobai]

BrunoSSace, on 23 April 2019 - 08:02 PM, said:

This is MWO, the whole game is about boating, if you haven't noticed? No one goes 2 small lasers, 2 mediums and 2 medium pulse. its not table top. Its a shooting game.
If you don't boat, you are at a major disadvantage. Plus the whole current skill tree system rewards boating.

For example 4 srm6 are alot better then 3 srm6 and 2 lasors.

But its not a good thing that the game revolves around boating. its actually a bad thing.

Right now the game rewards boating way too much because of how quirks and the skill trees work.

Ideally boating and mixed loadouts should be equal. We all know that ideal scenario will never happen though. But that doesnt mean boated builds need to be propped up by even more by quirks/skills while mixed builds get NOTHING. The disparity between boated and mixed builds should be reduced as much as possible so boated builds have as small of an advantage as possible over mixed builds.

the whole quirk/skill system should be redone to so it no longer rewards boating multiples of the same weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 23 April 2019 - 08:29 PM.

[Curccu]

Y E O N N E, on 23 April 2019 - 05:39 PM, said:

The premiere IS laser 'Mechs are WHM-6D, GHR-5H, TDR-5S-T, TDR-5SS, RGH-3A, BL-7-KNT, BL-6B-KNT, RFL-5D, CPLT-J, HBK-4P, BJ-1X, BJ-3, UZL-6P, WLF-2, JVN-11A, and FLE-17. Every single one of them has significant quirks. If it's not firepower, it's hefty armor. Often it's solid firepower and moderate armor or structure.

No Vulcan ?

[Y E O N N E]

Curccu, on 23 April 2019 - 09:40 PM, said:

No Vulcan ?

Sure. Also quirked, though.

[Alienized]

also, you dont see ppl using ppc's because... well, they also only know nascar. badumtiss.
guess to what conclusion i would come here....
not to mention that i actually see plenty of PPC's around just gotta open your eyes at times i guess.

[Y E O N N E]

Alienized, on 23 April 2019 - 11:00 PM, said:

also, you dont see ppl using ppc's because... well, they also only know nascar. badumtiss.
guess to what conclusion i would come here....
not to mention that i actually see plenty of PPC's around just gotta open your eyes at times i guess.

The point isn't to see them, it's to see them do well which...they don't.