97 replies to this topic

[VigorousApathy]

Honestly OP, the players who play faction would stomp the QP que if you allowed them to pick the map before picking the mech. Not even due to skill, but due to their higher likelihood of having multiple mechs specifically built for that map.

Now im sure somebody brought this up years before me, but i would personally add in mobile healing units. This way you dont need 4 mechs. Of course this wont happen because its a bit late for it, and also it would severely change the way the game is played.

edit: (im sure theres a slew of other reasons)

Edited by VigorousApathy, 27 April 2019 - 05:24 PM.

[Anjian]

VigorousApathy, on 26 April 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

Honestly OP, the players who play faction would stomp the QP que if you allowed them to pick the map before picking the que. Not even due to skill, but due to their higher likelihood of having multiple mechs specifically built for that map.

Now im sure somebody brought this up years before me, but i would personally add in mobile healing units. This way you dont need 4 mechs. Of course this wont happen because its a bit late for it, and also it would severely change the way the game is played.

Which is why you need to remove map voting and rely on random maps.

Having more complex game modes (see the mad ideas thread) can also force mech selection by phases of the game. What should be your starter mech? What should be your mid phase mech? What should be your end phase mech?

Map design can also be made in such a way that it can support a range of play styles including both brawler and sniper in the same map.

If drop decks are not weight limited, a wide variety of maps, well designed game modes and maps, will force drop decks to be multipurpose in order to account for every possibility.

[Eatit]

Lykaon, on 19 April 2019 - 01:39 PM, said:

There are a number of issues that are not easily seen that can and do arise when a major element of a game mechanic is radically altered.

Here are some examples of potential issues.

1. Weapon balance can be heavily effected. A weapon loadout that would be absolute lunacy in a single spawn game may become absurdly effective in a multi spawn (respawn) style of game play.

Here is an example... Let's say Rocket launchers become a serious meta choice. A few very light and very fast mechs can easily remove and cripple much much larger machines. The ability to respawn means that rocket lights will become a major influence on how the game is played. Let's assume this build choice becomes so dominant that assault mechs become vastly reduced in effectiveness because they just get rocket ganked in seconds by 20 ton murder machines. Then we have an additional issue with rockets being an Inner Sphere only option and with this we have a glut of nerf posts and now RLs need a rework. Or it could be something else that is even more absurd like 6x ER-PPC direwolves or some other absurd build that leverages the attrition game over a single spawn strategy.

On the flipside builds that work just fine in our current quick play may become undesireable with respawns. Something like an ECM gauss sniper that normally has enough ammo to pull through a whole match now needs significantly more ammo to retain the edge in it's play style. The switch to respawns makes a mech like this into a disposable ammo cart for gauss rifles. Shoot until empty suicide then respawn repeat. The issue is this type of gameplay is heavily effected by positioning and having to reposition on every respawn is not only very difficult but unlikely to be effective. An entire playstyle and build choice is now altered and may call into question core mechanic of weapon systems. ie. if gauss rifles always get forced into a brawl why have a charge mechanic? or why not just use AC20s instead?

2. Map design becomes a critical issue with respawns since with respawns we also get places where spawing occurs and when that happens spawn camping ALWAYS occurs. This would mean that we currently have a tiny handful of maps where respwan points are even a consideration in map design (the Invasion style maps) and even these frequently can result in spawn camps.

3. Player population and diffusion of players across to many match maker buckets will impede timely or effective matches. The mechanics used in matchmaking if more effective with large player samplings and becomes progressively less effective the smaller the player sampling becomes. In essence adding another point where players are diverted from a primary match maker pool deminishes the quality of ALL matches being made.

4. New player resource divide become a bigger issue. Veteran players will have a significantly larger pool of varied mech builds and fully mastered and skilled mechs than the new players. And it doesn't end there. There is also a magnification of the experience devide between new and veteran players. When currently a new player that has selected a sub optimized or outright bad chassis (due to the steep learning curve in MWo) they represent a slight setback to their team mates. that setback is magnified by respawning several times. You can suck only once now but with respawns you get to keep on sucking. This becomes very discouraging to new players.

5. And again we have the flip side being an issue as well. I am tier 1 but in reality not really a tier one when compared to the top ranked players in MWo. Our tier system is inadiquate to properly represent skill levels for the match maker. Currently a truely elite player can only carry a team with one mech. Respawns however allow repeat performances of high skill play.

6. Essentially minor variances in single drop games become hugely magnified in respawn games.



What it comes down to is what seems like an easy slap in change (respawns) in reality becomes a much bigger issue than initially assumed.

7. Also, faction warfare is getting a rework so perhaps a respwn game mode will become more accessable.

1. What are you talking about? We already have a multi spawn game mode. What you mentioned hasn't been a problem. We have a multi spawn game mode that proves what you are saying is fiction.

2. Spawn Camping is a thing. Especially in FW where no skill metric is used to create matches. The dramatically lopsided matches of FW won't exist in this game mode as it will be using the tier skill metric to create matches just like QP does.

3. I can't argue with you here. More buckets equals longer wait times. Maybe this will finally kill FW and we will lose those buckets.

4. New players, you mean tier 5 players will have the same resource availability as the other tier 5 players they are playing against because there is a skill based match maker. This is not a change from solo QP it works exactly the same. Any disadvantage they have now they will continue to have. The big advantage here is they won't have to wait in 4 que times to get 4 matches. They will be able to level mechs much faster.
Before you say just play FW. FW has no skill based match maker and has teams of skilled veterans that play. Solo new players in that environment will be lambs to the slaughter.

5. I'm not trying to address that issue. I don't have a better plan for a player skill metric. That issue exists and will not be created by this mode.

6. I'm sure there will need to be some changes to people's loadouts for this mode but hey more fun in the Mechlab. And again we already have a multi-spawn game mode and what you describe is not an issue there.

7. The "re-work" to FW is not going to address the issues of solo players. There will still be no skill based matchmaker. There will still be teams of veteran players pitted against new players. FW is an unsuccessful mode and wasting resources on it is a mistake in my mind. Let's put those resources toward making an added multi-spawn QP. QP the place where most by a long margin of the players like to play.

[Eatit]

VigorousApathy, on 26 April 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

Honestly OP, the players who play faction would stomp the QP que if you allowed them to pick the map before picking the que. Not even due to skill, but due to their higher likelihood of having multiple mechs specifically built for that map.

Now im sure somebody brought this up years before me, but i would personally add in mobile healing units. This way you dont need 4 mechs. Of course this wont happen because its a bit late for it, and also it would severely change the way the game is played.

edit: (im sure theres a slew of other reasons)

This is solo play. There are no teams of FW players. They will be solo just like they are when they play in Solo QP now. They don't have an advantage. More than they may know the maps but it won't help them when the nascar starts or when all of the players have been exposed to the maps.

Their decks are made for group play and work because they all use the same mechs. This is Solo and has IS and Clan on the same teams. There will be no advantage to their decks and they will have to come up with new decks that work in this environment. If anything it's a disadvantage to them.

[Ssamout]

LOL.

Eatit, on 26 April 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

This is solo play. There are no teams of FW players. They will be solo just like they are when they play in Solo QP now. They don't have an advantage. More than they may know the maps but it won't help them when the nascar starts or when all of the players have been exposed to the maps.

Yeah, so much nascar in FW that it makes your head spin. Also its a good thing that this large population makes sync dropping not feasible.

Eatit, on 26 April 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

Their decks are made for group play and work because they all use the same mechs. This is Solo and has IS and Clan on the same teams. There will be no advantage to their decks and they will have to come up with new decks that work in this environment. If anything it's a disadvantage to them.

Heheh, yeah, my "group decks" certainly wont work when solo dropping fw (or in qp)..

[frumpylumps]

drop deck sale when?

[Eatit]

SSmaout,

I hope you aren't suggesting that FW players would deliberately cheat by sync dropping in a solo que to gain an advantage. I don't think they would do that. I give them more credit than that. I think people would notice and report them for such unsportsmanlike activity. Actions like that would reduce them to low life cheater scum and nobody wants to be thought of as that. At least I hope nobody wants to be thought of as that.

frumpylumps, on 26 April 2019 - 11:19 AM, said:

drop deck sale when?

Man if they created this que I would hope they had a drop deck sale that day. They should also put every mech pack on sale. If it puts money into the coffers to get more content and higher quality games like MW5 I'm all for it.

[Ssamout]

Eatit, on 26 April 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

SSmaout,

I hope you aren't suggesting that FW players would deliberately cheat by sync dropping in a solo que to gain an advantage.

I'm not suggesting that. Just saying that even now people have hard time finding group queue matches and they end up sync dropping in solo qp by accident or purpose.

[Khobai]

Prototelis, on 19 April 2019 - 07:21 AM, said:

Requiring multiple mechs in the most easily accessible mode is a serious barrier for new players.

it would be super easy to have trial mechs that arnt 100% terrible. You act like thats some insurmountable problem. It isnt. PGI just has to pull some decent meta builds and add them as trial mechs. wow so hard I solved that problem in about 5 seconds.

believe me lack of multiple mechs isnt the barrier thats chasing new players away. multiple mechs are very easy to obtain in this game. And would be even easier to obtain if new players had access to decent trial mechs.

the barrier thats chasing new players away is the fact the game is bad in a repetitive not fun way. the maps are bad. and the matchmaker is virtually non-existent in quickplay (the tier system literally just does the bare minimum to keep new player separate from more experienced players). And group play literally has nothing at all, it doesnt even use the tier system.

I dunno if quickplay needs to go as far as adding dropdecks and respawn gamemodes. but it certainly needs better gamemodes than skirmish and its awful derivatives. because thats whats killing the game right now, the fact its just not fun, and people can play countless other free games with their friends that are way better. And those games actually have decent player populations and working matchmakers so inexperienced groups dont get stomped like they do in MWO. The problem is that people DONT WANT TO PLAY THIS GAME.

VigorousApathy, on 26 April 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

but i would personally add in mobile healing units

no that idea is absolutely terrible and goes against the fundamental principles of the game.

MWO is a game that punishes you for making poor choices. Its unforgiving and brutal. If you lose half your armor you dont get to take it by running away and repairing.

Id be okay with a respawn ticket gamemode for FW (not quickplay). Because thats still unforgiving and brutal since tickets would always be ticking downward and never upward. But healing should not be allowed, at least not free healing, healing that requires you to go back your base and costs respawn tickets would be fine (repairing could cost like half the tickets that a full respawn would cost, so its better than dying but still not free)

Ssamout, on 26 April 2019 - 12:39 PM, said:

If drop decks are not weight limited, a wide variety of maps, well designed game modes and maps, will force drop decks to be multipurpose in order to account for every possibility.

unless you abandon the whole idea of dropdecks entirely and go with ticket based respawns instead. each mech would cost an appropriate number of tickets based on how good or bad the mech is (no more worrying about atlases being way worse than annihilators for the same tonnage cost). You could spawn in any mech you own or in one of several decent trial mechs.

combine a flexible system like that with dynamic gamemodes with multiple win conditions/objectives and youd end up with a much more strategic and tactical game than what we have now. People could jump in whatever mech their team needs at the time and even pivot their overall strategies to something else if what they were doing before wasnt working.

Edited by Khobai, 26 April 2019 - 02:09 PM.

[Nameless King]

FRAGTAST1C, on 25 April 2019 - 07:14 PM, said:

We have many modes already and most of them aren't used. Do you want to create another one? There's a reason why QP is named Quick Play. It's meant to be an instant action mode. Drop Decks are meant for FW 'cause THAT'S where all players who are able to load a few mechs into their drop decks should be playing. That's the main mode in MWO but it isn't treated as such 'cause PGI hasn't made use of the full potential of it. I think they're now trying to do that. But if you combine QP and FW into another mode but it doesn't have the career path and FW rewards, what good is it?

It is not the main mode and never will be. Most players play QP

[Ace Selin]

No.

it will take much longer to find a game with 4 possible tonnages per person.
can change mechs to suit map types - advantages existing players.
as said we already have faction play where we have dropdecks.

[MrXanthios]

I would be ok with the solo qp drop deck if you could only drop with one of the four mechs you have.

No respawns, the match stays short. The only difference is that before actually dropping you can choose one among the four mechs you have in the drop deck.

If they did something like this, I would always have an LRM mad-dog ready in my drop deck for those times when polar gets picked. It would make lurming actually fun probably. On polar it would be a 12 v 12 lurmer every time

[LordNothing]

id do drop decks for qp but you only get to choose one after the map is revealed. obviously decks would need to be all the same weight class. you do not get to use all four because then it wouldnt be quick play. it just lets you pick a mech more suited to the result of the map/mode vote.

Edited by LordNothing, 26 April 2019 - 09:10 PM.

[Curccu]

Eatit, on 26 April 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

I hope you aren't suggesting that FW players would deliberately cheat by sync dropping in a solo que to gain an advantage.

And HOW do you make PGIs matchmaker to get your friends into same team as you? If they are in opposite team that is not advantage.

[Mystere]

Eatit, on 26 April 2019 - 10:17 AM, said:

7. The "re-work" to FW is not going to address the issues of solo players. There will still be no skill based matchmaker. There will still be teams of veteran players pitted against new players. FW is an unsuccessful mode and wasting resources on it is a mistake in my mind. Let's put those resources toward making an added multi-spawn QP. QP the place where most by a long margin of the players like to play.

CW is a failure because it was the best example of MVP -- Minimally Viable Product. There are ways to build it with the solo players also in mind. I'm not rehashing any of those, though.

Having said that, there are a number of solo players who thrived in CW.

Edited by Mystere, 27 April 2019 - 06:29 AM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 26 April 2019 - 01:30 PM, said:

Id be okay with a respawn ticket gamemode for FW (not quickplay). Because thats still unforgiving and brutal since tickets would always be ticking downward and never upward.

I'd go the other direction and make QP a fully ticket based respawn mode. I'd even go further and just make it (a nearly) "Endless War" -- with actual objective to fulfil other than just merely killing all of the enemy. If you die, just rejoin the queue to drop again. If you've had enough then don't rejoin the queue.

This inherent concept of "matches" is one of the things that have proven to be a huge bane to this game. MWO should be about "war", not "gladiatorial combat". Those who want the latter should go drop in Solaris.

Many of the problems with this game can be traced back to the unhealthy obsession with eSports.

**** eSports!

[Khobai]

Mystere, on 27 April 2019 - 06:43 AM, said:

I'd go the other direction and make QP a fully ticket based respawn mode. I'd even go further and just make it (a nearly) "Endless War" -- with actual objective to fulfil other than just merely killing all of the enemy. If you die, just rejoin the queue to drop again. If you've had enough then don't rejoin the queue.

This inherent concept of "matches" is one of the things that have proven to be a huge bane to this game. MWO should be about "war", not "gladiatorial combat". Those who want the latter should go drop in Solaris.

Many of the problems with this game can be traced back to the unhealthy obsession with eSports.

**** eSports!

I wouldnt object to QP having a ticket based respawn gamemode.

But seeing as how other people dont want that, i didnt feel it was worth getting into the argument with them.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 27 April 2019 - 06:53 AM, said:

I wouldnt object to QP having a ticket based respawn gamemode.

But seeing as how other people dont want that, i didnt feel it was worth getting into the argument with them.

If, as often claimed, most people just want a quick way to drop and fight, this should not make any difference at all for such folks.

Edited by Mystere, 27 April 2019 - 11:09 AM.