23 replies to this topic

[FRAGTAST1C]

1. Hellbringer ECM laser vomit

2. Orion IIC A (C) (LBX 20 + 4 SRM 6+A and running at 83kph)

3. Ebon Jaguar

4. Vapor Eagle

5. Mad Kat dakka

6. Arctic Wolf SRM bomber

[OfficerDingDong]

equivalent or counter?

[P o l a r i s]

No
No
Maybe Champion laser vomit
Never
Several
No chance in hell

To be more specific these are answers regarding to mech vs mech in similar weight range.

Edited by P o l a r i s, 02 May 2019 - 08:22 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

For an answer to HBR laservomit, a Warhammer WHM-6D with LL/LPL+ERML would be the nearest IS equivalent- but it lacks ECM and can't trade as far. Other possibilities are the GHR-5P, TDR-5SS, TDR-9S, and Top Dog, all of which have at least mostly high-ish mounts with similar hardpoint counts. For Gaussvomit, the WHM-6R.

For ON1-IIC-A brawl, the Roughneck is probably the nearest thing in performance- specifically the RGH-1C and Powerhouse with AC20+SRMs. It's not going to deliver the same punch, but has better mounts and better hitboxes with comparable speed (though weaker armor). Not a one-for-one matchup by any means, but it's at least got a chance using a similar playstyle and build.

For EBJ dakka, the JM6-DD is still viable with 3xUAC5 or 5xAC2 spam, but the standout best IS dakka heavy is the Warhammer hero, Black Widow- which can run a similar UAC10+2xUAC5 build to the EBJ (much slower, but with better armor and hitboxes). The RFL-3C, Legend Killer, and CHP-1NB can also dakka pretty well with AC2 spam, but aren't quite on the same level. For other builds, the Warhammer (laservomit, Gaussvomit) would do well.

Nothing the IS has right now really compares to the VGL for power. There are 'Mechs with similar playstyles though- try the Griffin, Wolverine, or Shadow Hawk with jets and MRMs for poptart missile spam, or the SHD-2K for PPC poptarting. The Bushwacker is a good dakka medium (3xRAC2, 4xAC2, 2xUAC10, etc), though it can't poptart like Veagle dakka builds.

MCII-B dakka is answered by the Annihilator (6xAC2, 6xAC5, 2xUAC10+2xUAC5, 4xLB-10X), Fafnir (4xUAC5, 4xLB10X) or Cyclops Sleipnir (4xUAC5, 4xLB-10X). All are slower but more durable. Technically the KGC-000B, KGC-000, MAL-MX90, and MAL-1R could be thrown in, but they're much weaker. The Nightstar can technically dakka- it has the tonnage and mounts, but has bad convergence and awful hitboxes. On the lighter end, the VTR-9A1 can do 2xUAC10+UAC5, but I wouldn't want to trade DPS with an MCII using an 80-tonner.

The current ACW equivalents are the Assassin for SRMs, or the Vulcan for medpulse. Neither one will even come close to matching the missilepuke ACW for firepower, but both have superior hitboxes and mobility and fill more or less the same striker/flanker role in the IS lineup.

[BrunoSSace]

Why do you want to want an IS mech to copy a Clan mech?
Ok I'll play this game.
1. No not yet. One day well get a Grasshopper with Ecm
2. Cataphract can run at 80km and has double the armor of an Origin
3 Grasshopper
4. Closet would be the Griffin or shadow hark
4. Nope, No IS Assult can do what it can. Even running a xl engine.
5. Assassin.

[Y E O N N E]

Assuming you are asking about IS 'Mechs in the game already:

1. No

2. Orion 1VA or Roughneck Powerhouse

3. Warhammer 6D

4. No

5. Annihilator 2A

6. Assassin 21 or 23

That said, you need to be more specific about which builds on those Clan 'Mechs you are trying to find analogues to. The Hellbringer and Ebon Jaguar are both known for running primarily laser vomit builds, and in that regard the above-mentioned WHM-6D is the closest IS counterpart with or without ECM. The EBJ is also known for running ballistics with lasers, making the WHM-6R the closest analogue.

And even then, all IS counterparts compete in a sideways fashion rather than just straight-matching their Clan counterparts on the equipment sheet. That ANH-2A is much slower and much tougher than the MCII-B, but is also much hotter and has significantly shorter range. They are comparable in the damage they can dish, but not in how they play. Similar story for the Assassins' they are about the same speed as the ACW-1, but lack the raw firepower; they instead have more precise missiles and are much harder to kill. The ON1-VA is more powerful in range than the ON1-IIC-A, with more precise weapons and a bigger alpha strike, but it's also slower and hotter; you can get a little bit of speed back if you drop two of the SRMs down to 4s and bump the engine up to a 300, but it's really not worth the loss in firepower for 1.1 kph.

[ChapeL]

Can't the Warhammer 4L do a fair approximation of ECM laser vomit ? 6 energy Hardpoints and ECM seems decent. ( I know the Hellbringer can mount more but still )

[Y E O N N E]

ChapeL, on 02 May 2019 - 09:55 PM, said:

Can't the Warhammer 4L do a fair approximation of ECM laser vomit ? 6 energy Hardpoints and ECM seems decent. ( I know the Hellbringer can mount more but still )

No; way too undergunned to compare to the HBR.

Also, the mounts suck, unlike the high torso mounts in the HBR.

[Sjorpha]

If you look at the tier lists on Grimmechs and compare the number of competitive (s+a tier) builds there is a total of 27 IS builds and 30 Clan builds.

Given that there are significantly more IS mechs than Clan mechs that indicates that the average strength of clan mechs and tech is higher than IS, if the tech was equally strong there would be more competitive IS than Clan mechs.

But there are still enough IS chassis with the right blend of strong quirks and design to produce almost as many competitive builds in the end. It is not only about quirks as some of the best IS builds don't have that strong quirks such as the WHR-6R gaussvomit, but still most of those IS builds wouldn't be competitive without their quirks.

So I guess it depends on what you mean by equivalent. There are almost as many IS metabuilds as Clan, but their equivalency is not really in being able to match the efficiency of clan tech, it's more about matching some aspect of a competitive clan build while also adding some other quirk advantage.

So for example there is no matching IS build for the MADII-B dakka boat, it's literally impossible to cram that much firepower and speed at the same time in an IS mech of that tonnage, but instead there are IS assaults matching that firepower while moving super slow and having more armor, and they end up being as competitive in some situations.

The tech imbalance is definitely there and definitely a problem, but for all it's faults the quirk system manages to shake out some IS gems here and there to offset it.

In theory they could just quirk the underpowered IS mechs enough and solve the divide that way, or they could go ahead and actually balance the tech so Clan isn't better. The problem is that PGI doesn't have the resolve to do either of those things all the way, so we're left with this halfway effort that leaves Clan generally superior and more competitive but with enough exceptions that you can live with it (or use those exceptions to form dishonest arguments about how balance is better than it is)

Edited by Sjorpha, 03 May 2019 - 04:34 AM.

[Hobbles v]

For most comparables IS has to ton up slightly

1. No, IS has no viable ecm vomit mech. Warhammer are the closest offensively. Stalker FB is the best ecm option ( it's a very different mech)

2. IS onions but slower. Victors and cyclop's.

3. For hill humping. No but Grasshoppers, warhammers and to a lesser extent thunderbolts can compete offensively while being more durable.

4. Atms obviously not. But poptart MRMs can be done very effectively on Griffins, wolverine 7k, shadowhawks and IV-4s. For similar effect that is only passable at poking but leagues better up close.

5. Not really. But slepnirs, maulers, annis and Fafnirs all compete.

6. No. But an assasin is far scarier.

Edited by Hobbles v, 03 May 2019 - 06:23 AM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

I forgot I made this topic. Anyway, the reason for it is that I do better in mobile mechs that can do burst damage while having ECM laser vomit is also viable for me. The problem is that IS mechs can't seem to do what I want. I'm decent if I use the Orion IIC A and the Hellbringer while the Mad Kat, Veagle, Jaaaaaaag and Arctic Wolf seem to be the kind of mechs I'd be comfortable in. I'm finding it extremely hard to find IS equivalent in terms of mobility and firepower.

[ObeyTheLion]

IS counterpart of the Hellbringer laservomit might be the Black Knight. Minus the ECM(And good hardpoints. UGH)

o7

Edited by ObeyTheLion, 05 May 2019 - 09:41 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

FRAGTAST1C, on 05 May 2019 - 09:00 AM, said:

I forgot I made this topic. Anyway, the reason for it is that I do better in mobile mechs that can do burst damage while having ECM laser vomit is also viable for me. The problem is that IS mechs can't seem to do what I want. I'm decent if I use the Orion IIC A and the Hellbringer while the Mad Kat, Veagle, Jaaaaaaag and Arctic Wolf seem to be the kind of mechs I'd be comfortable in. I'm finding it extremely hard to find IS equivalent in terms of mobility and firepower.

The IS has to make more inherent tradeoffs than Clan 'Mechs, but the payout is that the quirks and inherent agility superiority they get in compensation make them way more fun to play.

If you want to have the same firepower as a Clan 'Mech, you are going to have to make a sacrifice in heatsinks or engine, and always some armor. That engine sacrifice can come in the form of dropping engine size or using the more fragile XL type. Sometimes you don't have a choice, because the 'Mech's combination of size, geometry, and agility makes running an XL too risky (as is the case with the IS Orion and almost every IS Assault).

I'm going to show you some IS build examples below, by archetype, with a bias toward firepower and speed over durability to make them as similar as possible in play-style to the Clan 'Mech they are being compared against; note that you can run almost all of these on a slightly slower LFE or STD where applicable. Also note that most people do not try to go toe-to-toe on alpha size, which lets them bring less-slow LFEs.

Laser Vomit

Spoiler

To set the baseline, here's the Clan option:

Hellbringer
- cXL 325; 81 kph
- 2x HLL + 4x cERML; 58 alpha
- 25x DHS
- 1x ECM

Note, some sacrifice a DHS to get another cERML in the arm. Some sacrifice four DHS and use cLPL. Others just straight-replace the cERML with cERLL. But, this is the build that really made the HBR what it is today, though it has been somewhat neutered from its original 64-points (which is why some now run those alternatives).

Ebon Jaguar
- cXL 325; 81 kph
- 2x cLPL + 6x cERML; 63 alpha
- 24x DHS

When building the IS equivalent laser vomit, the norm is a 52-point alpha using 3x Large Lasers and 5x Medium/ER Medium Lasers on an LFE 280 (60 tons), LFE 300 (65 tons), LFE 325 (70 tons), and LFE 350 (75 tons). This is the most-balanced approach since it gets you pretty close to the Clan alpha and pretty close to the Clan speed, to the point where the outcome will be down to range (which quirks can help) and pilot skill more than anything else. The significantly shorter IS burns (0.935 seconds after skill tree for the whole thing versus 1.395 with HLL and 1.125 with cLPL due to the cERML) help it win trades even with a smaller alpha size...which isn't that much smaller, mind you.

To go that extra distance on firepower at the same speed with the same cooling, you must run an XL. Below are some examples doing exactly that from each weight in the Heavy class from 65 tons on up (60 tons can't match a 65 tonner on raw specs):

Thunderbolt Top Dog
- XL 300; 74.7 kph
- 3x LL + 6x ERML; 57 alpha
- 18x DHS
- TC2

Warhammer 6D (70T)
- XL 325; 75.2 kph
- 3x LL + 6x ML; 57 alpha
- 20x DHS
- TC1

Grasshopper 5P (70T)
- XL 325; 75.2 kph
- 3x LPL + 5x ERML; 55 alpha
- 18x DHS
- 1x JJ

Black Knight 6B (75T)(also works on BLK-7-KNT, trading heat quirks for armor quirks)
- XL 350; 75.6 kph
- 3x LPL + 6x ERML; 60 alpha
- 19x DHS
- Note: at 75 tons, you have the option of moving into an LFE without dropping engine size if you swap the LPLs over to LLs; this gives you the 57 points without the XL-factor of the Warhammer, but you lose the armor advantage 75 tons is supposed to confer over 70 tons

Splat Brawl

Spoiler

Here's what you are comparing to:

Orion IIC-A (75T)
- cXL 350; 81 kph
- 1x cLB-20X + 4x cSRM6A; 68 alpha
- 17x DHS

The IS cannot match this combination of abilities, full stop. Not even by swapping to XL can they do this, they would still be running way hotter and some of the weapons don't even fit with that engine. The best I can offer you is slower builds that are otherwise similar or builds that are fast but trade away brute firepower in favor of dramatically superior precision and rate of fire that you might still like because they hit pretty hard on a component-level.

Roughneck Powerhouse
- LFE 280; 69.7 kph
- 1x AC/20 + 2x SRM6A + 1x SRM4A; 54.4 alpha
- 11x DHS

Thunderbolt 5SS (65T)
- STD 300; 74.7 kph
- 7x MPL; 42 alpha
- 20x DHS
- TC1

Archer 5W (70T)
- LFE 325; 75.2 kph
- 4x SRM6 + 5x SRM2; 77.4 alpha
- 13x DHS

Black Knight 7 (75T)
- LFE 350; 75.6 kph
- 9x MPL; 54 alpha
- 20x DHS

Missile Poptarting

Spoiler

Right off the bat, there is no IS equivalent to ATMs. The closest you can get are jumpy MRMs which will have about 40% of the total potential firepower of an ATM blast in optimum range, but does not have any minimum range weakness.

The closest two 'Mechs to outputting the damage, and running at similar speed, of an ATM Vapor Eagle are:

Quickdraw IV (60T)
- LFE 280
- 2x MRM30; 60 alpha
- 12x DHS
- 2x JJ

Wolverine 7D (55T)
- XL 280; 82.4 kph (MASC sprints are higher, forget exact % but it's around 100 kph)
- 1x MRM40 + 1x MRM10; 50 alpha
- 12x DHS
- 2x JJ
- MASC

Big Dakka

Spoiler

The MCII-B that forms the yardstick:

Mad Cat Mk. II-B
- cXL 325; 58.5 kph
- 2x cUAC/10 + 2x cUAC/5; 30 alpha
- 15x DHS
- 1x JJ

The IS have a few tricks up their sleeves here, though getting that combination of alpha, cooling, and jam redundancy with JJs is impossible. Note that the MCII-B is not actually that fast; even the Annihilator is less than 10 kph slower. The rest of these are only about 4 kph slower.

Victor 9A1 (80T)
- LFE 280; 56.5 kph (or XL300; 60.7 kph)
- 2x UAC/10 + 1x UAC/5; 25 alpha
- 12x DHS
- 1x JJ

Cyclops Sleipnir (90T)
- LFE 325; 58.5 kph
- 4x UAC/5; 20 alpha
- 13x DHS

Cyclops Sleipnir (again)
- STD 300; 54 kph
- 1x UAC/10 + 3x UAC/5; 25 alpha
- 10x DHS

Cyclops Sleipnir (again again)
- STD 300; 54 kph (can also do LFE 315; 56.7 kph)
- 1x UAC/10 + 3x RAC/2; ~29.5 alpha
- 12x DHS

Nightstar 9P (95T)
- LFE 325; 55.4 kph
- 3x UAC/10; 30 alpha
- 13x DHS

Nightstar 9P (again)
- LFE 315; 53.7 kph
- 1x UAC/10 + 3x UAC/5; 25 alpha
- 12x DHS

Annilator 1A (100T)
- STD 300; 48.6 kph
- 2x UAC/10 + 2x UAC/5; 30 alpha
- 12x DHS

Edited by Y E O N N E, 05 May 2019 - 05:19 PM.

[Bowelhacker]

Isn't one of the Dervish variants going to be a bit SRM boaty? That could be a good equivalent of an artic Wolf? Or maybe more of a Huntsman.

[Y E O N N E]

Bowelhacker, on 05 May 2019 - 04:31 PM, said:

Isn't one of the Dervish variants going to be a bit SRM boaty? That could be a good equivalent of an artic Wolf? Or maybe more of a Huntsman.

Yes, but it's also not out yet.

[TheArisen]

Griffin and Bush both have SRM builds that work well

Roughneck 3A is also an excellent energy boat. Basically gives up ECM for substantial durability.

[Steel Raven]

In short: No. You cant make a straight swap between Clan and IS. Why CW has always been a source of nerfs and buff balancing act .

That said, as someone who pilots almost one of each, I can give you rides that are close enough

FRAGTAST1C, on 02 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

1. Hellbringer ECM laser vomit

No IS ECM heavy can equal the Hellbringer though the Warhammer 6D and Grasshopper do good as Energy Boats. IF ECM is a deal breaking, you will need to go way up in tonnage and get a Stalker STK-3FB.

FRAGTAST1C, on 02 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

2. Orion IIC A (C) (LBX 20 + 4 SRM 6+A and running at 83kph)

The only IS brawler that I can recommend would be the Roughneck RGH-1C, 1 AC/20 and 4X SRM4s.

FRAGTAST1C, on 02 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

3. Ebon Jaguar

General solve all heavy? Marauder. MAD-3R with 3XRAC2s, MAD-5M with 2X LB-10Xs and 4X MLs, ect.

General 65 ton heavy? Catapult K2, Thunderbolt and Roughneck all give you options.

FRAGTAST1C, on 02 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

4. Vapor Eagle

Best 55 ton IS Machine is the Bushwacker hands down. The Griffin is still serviceable if JJs are a deal breaker

FRAGTAST1C, on 02 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

5. Mad Kat dakka

Fire power? The Annihilator and Fafnir. The are slower but also tougher. Need something faster? Better off with a good IS heavy. Cyclops Sleipnir gives you options if you have the MCs

FRAGTAST1C, on 02 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

6. Arctic Wolf SRM bomber

Speed+SRMs= the Assassin. Scary Firepower= Bushwacker.

Edited by Steel Raven, 05 May 2019 - 06:02 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

FRAGTAST1C, on 02 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

1. Hellbringer ECM laser vomit

2. Orion IIC A (C) (LBX 20 + 4 SRM 6+A and running at 83kph)

3. Ebon Jaguar

4. Vapor Eagle

5. Mad Kat dakka

6. Arctic Wolf SRM bomber

1. Not really with ECM. Otherwise #3 answers it.

2. Yes - Because no OrionIIC Brawler should be running 83km/h, you're down on ammo/DHS if that is the case. Should be around 75km/h off the top of my head. Anyway Orion-VA does it near enough

3. Yes. GHP-5H, WHM-6D or Black Knights. 3LL & ERML combo.

4. In what way? Dakka? If so Champion with RAC2s might be close as well as BSW's

5. MX90, Anni, Fafnir etc.

6. ASN's


If you want something almost the same you're really not going to find it as that is the ENTIRE point of MWO. To be different. The mechs are different in speed or quirks and that brings flavour to the game.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 05 May 2019 - 06:09 PM.

[panzer1b]

FRAGTAST1C, on 02 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

1. Hellbringer ECM laser vomit

2. Orion IIC A (C) (LBX 20 + 4 SRM 6+A and running at 83kph)

3. Ebon Jaguar

4. Vapor Eagle

5. Mad Kat dakka

6. Arctic Wolf SRM bomber

1: IS hellbringer counterpart would be the warhammer, but with a slightly different build then the hellbringer. Most HBRs these days run 4ERML with 2 HLL/ERLL for 48-58 alfa strike depending on whether you prefer utility of range and cooldown sync of weapons or pure single exposure damage. The 2 things that come close to that on the warhammer-6r are the 2gauss+4/6ERML for a 50-60 damage poke. The mechs arent truly the same (no ECM, but since there are NO good is ECM heavys right now thats moot), and ofc its slower going 65 instead of 81 on both builds. While its a bit different, i consider it to be a far better mech at high levels of play (gauss gives you good ranged ability with ERMLs as you get closer), but its riskier too especially if you use the higher alfa XL variant (there is no way to LFE 6 ERMLs on it without turning into a turret).

2: orion2c has no 100% counterpart, but a few IS mechs can do the same, roughneck, orion, maybee even quickdraw (60 MRMs is a different playstyle but it can brawl and is very tanky).

3: ebon is pretty much a hellbringer that trades hitboxes and ecm for better guns (2LPL+5-6ERML). Its pretty much same as the 1st mech, warhammer can play similar styles to this thing, maybee even marauder-bh2 with its gauss vomit setup (slightly less damage per poke but it can take a hit).

4: nothing really matches a vapin eagle in playstyle and payload right now, but there are quite a few IS meds that can eat one if played correctly like the bushwanker (for dakka setups), and if you want PPCs blackjack or shadowhawk. As for the gauss vomit, well the closest thing is the warhammer but thats a whole other weight class. Yeah, in terms of slow high firepower jumpjet med, vapin eagle is the ONLY thing in game that can do it.

5: anni, fatnir, cyclops, mauler, ect. Plenty of IS dakka carriers, just slower (IS simply cannot bring anywhere near that many guns while still moving over 60kph period). madcat2 still has the best versatility, but it is far from the only assault in game that can run that build, and honestly its sorta overrated (i admit its very powerful, but it falls apart quickly when focused cause clam paper mech with easy to destroy arms).

6: assasin, less alfa then a srm suicide bomber, but better hitboxes and faster. Other then that, not much which is both stupidly fast and runs alot of SRMs, clam will always have firepower advantage here, IS armor advantage generally (arctic wolf really is squish).

[Athom83]

FRAGTAST1C, on 02 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

1. Hellbringer ECM laser vomit
2. Orion IIC A (C) (LBX 20 + 4 SRM 6+A and running at 83kph)
3. Ebon Jaguar
4. Vapor Eagle
5. Mad Kat dakka
6. Arctic Wolf SRM bomber

1. Not really. I mean, you could try it with one of the Thanatos (the Hero would be your best bet), or if you want to go up to assault the Hatamoto 28TR or the Stalker 3FB would be the 'closest' approximation.
2. Various Cyclops variants, the new Corsair 7R, the Orion VA, Hatamoto hero "Shugo" (but with 2 AC/LB 10s instead of a single 20), Fafnir 5E (or Wraith), and the Roughneck 1C.
3. Orion, Cataphract, and Marauder.
4. Bushwacker and Enforcer currently, Dirvish when that releases.
5. II or I? If II, Corsair. If I, Thanatos.
6. Champion hero "Invictus", Assassin 21, Vulcan "Bloodlust", Kintaro 18 and "GB", Hellspawn, Bushwacker P1, and Dervish when it releases.